Road Markings/Lane Discipline

GreeBo

Is it an Irish thing to just ignore road markings and just weave across lanes?

They recently updated the road markings around Sandyford Industrial Estate (the slip road from Dundrum to the Industrial Estate and the Roundabout above the M50)
The markings on the roundabout are much easier to follow and means that the traffic flows freely around the roundabout; yet people just wander across the lanes oblivious to cars proceeding in the correct lane. I have to sit on the horn every evening as someone wanders into my lane.

They changed the sliproad so that its only for traffic not going into the Industrial Estate, if you want to go there just use the roundabout; yet every morning the road turns to chaos and grinds to a halt as people stop in the middle of the road indicating to cut one or 2 lanes across the hatching.

Why is this? Are they stupid or they just dont care as long as its easier for them? Can you be ticketed/fined for crossing hatching? Is there anywhere that has those bendy cones to prevent people from crossing hatching? (I know sometimes its at the start of hatching but how about the whole way?)

Is it just me?:(

CiniO

While I've never been outside Europe, but in no other European country I've seen so many drivers ignoring road markings, indicator usage, and prohibited parking areas than in Ireland.

However, I myself do ignore road markings every day, as they are impossible to obey.
F.e lanes of 2metre width while vehicles I drive are up to 2.5m wide.

Stheno

CiniO wrote: »

While I've never been outside Europe, but in no other European country I've seen so many drivers ignoring road markings, indicator usage, and prohibited parking areas than in Ireland.

Try Malta, Italy, or Cyprus.

mhigh86

GreeBo wrote: »

Is it an Irish thing to just ignore road markings and just weave across lanes?

They recently updated the road markings around Sandyford Industrial Estate (the slip road from Dundrum to the Industrial Estate and the Roundabout above the M50)
The markings on the roundabout are much easier to follow and means that the traffic flows freely around the roundabout; yet people just wander across the lanes oblivious to cars proceeding in the correct lane. I have to sit on the horn every evening as someone wanders into my lane.

They changed the sliproad so that its only for traffic not going into the Industrial Estate, if you want to go there just use the roundabout; yet every morning the road turns to chaos and grinds to a halt as people stop in the middle of the road indicating to cut one or 2 lanes across the hatching.

Why is this? Are they stupid or they just dont care as long as its easier for them? Can you be ticketed/fined for crossing hatching? Is there anywhere that has those bendy cones to prevent people from crossing hatching? (I know sometimes its at the start of hatching but how about the whole way?)

Is it just me?:(

Both of the above.

dahamsta

Stheno wrote: »

Try Malta, Italy, or Cyprus.

I didn't think the Maltese were all that bad. I haven't been in Italy yet, but the Italian cars in Croatia were, without exception, piloted by truly awful drivers. They made the Croatian drivers ^H^H^H^H^H^H^H overtakers look almost talented.

Bohrio

I am familiar with that roundabout as I drive through it on daily basis (almost). They changed the marking some weeks ago and I was very pleased to see it. I thought, finally people will get on the right lane. Well how wrong I was... still they have no clue of whats going on.

I agree that places like Italy, Malta, Greece etc but there is a big difference IMO compared to Ireland and that is that they actually know that what they are doing is wrong, here, they have no clue.

This can be clearly demonstrated by trying the following

If I come across someone doing this in another country (ie Italy) and I beep my horn to warn the person that my car is in the lane that he is trying to occupy, the other fella will quickly react and go back to his lane (might still go for it but it will behave in a more aggressively). If you do it in Ireland nothing will happen, the person invading your lane will still continue with his/her maneuver without even a tiny reaction to the sound of your horn. If you keep beeping the person is likely to get really angry because, in their mind, they didnt do anything wrong therefore you are in the wrong. I have seen so many people getting really angry and start agitating their arms just because I wouldnt let them pass after they attempted a similar maneuver...

I just learned to live with it, I am sorry to say this but in general, people in Ireland have no awareness of whats around them and the lack of knowledge in regards Rules of the road is impressive. And it gets worse inlands.

dahamsta

I think the problem with the horn is as much to do with our lack of use as it is with competence. Admittedly the likes of Italians use it way too much, but I think we use it way too little. If someone is in my way, I blow at them, but most Irish people prefer to fume for some bizarre reason -- it's the equivalent of our inability to complain about bad products and services. I've never quite understood it myself, I've gotten a rake of freebies for just standing up for myself.

All that being said, it can't be denied there is a major lack of competence in Ireland. I see multiple examples of truly terrible driving every day; hell, I drive the N25 multiple times a week, where a good 75% of the traffic lives in the overtaking lane, and the remainder plods along at 90kph in the driving lane despite the (it's not a target! :rolleyes:) 120kph limit. Except when they're wandering between them randomly, of course.

However having seen Italian drivers drive, I'd argue that they're equally incompetent. They're incapable of keeping in lane, they don't observe speed limits (either way), they don't pay attention to anything that goes on around them, and they don't seem to really have any control over their cars. Now obviously there are good Italian drivers out there, there would have to be. But in a fortnight in Croatia, I didn't see one of them.

charlemont

GreeBo wrote: »

Is it an Irish thing to just ignore road markings and just weave across lanes?

They recently updated the road markings around Sandyford Industrial Estate (the slip road from Dundrum to the Industrial Estate and the Roundabout above the M50)
The markings on the roundabout are much easier to follow and means that the traffic flows freely around the roundabout; yet people just wander across the lanes oblivious to cars proceeding in the correct lane. I have to sit on the horn every evening as someone wanders into my lane.

They changed the sliproad so that its only for traffic not going into the Industrial Estate, if you want to go there just use the roundabout; yet every morning the road turns to chaos and grinds to a halt as people stop in the middle of the road indicating to cut one or 2 lanes across the hatching.

Why is this? Are they stupid or they just dont care as long as its easier for them? Can you be ticketed/fined for crossing hatching? Is there anywhere that has those bendy cones to prevent people from crossing hatching? (I know sometimes its at the start of hatching but how about the whole way?)

Is it just me?:(

Its the same in Cork, Stupid people can be easily spotted on the road. Driving around in ignorance and oblivious to others around them.

GreeBo

dahamsta wrote: »

All that being said, it can't be denied there is a major lack of competence in Ireland. I see multiple examples of truly terrible driving every day; hell, I drive the N25 multiple times a week, where a good 75% of the traffic lives in the overtaking lane, and the remainder plods along at 90kph in the driving lane despite the (it's not a target! :rolleyes:) 120kph limit. Except when they're wandering between them randomly, of course.

I agree, but I'd see a big difference between people being in the wrong lane, and people willfully cutting across hatching or wandering across lanes in a roundabout.

Indricotherium

CiniO wrote: »

While I've never been outside Europe, but in no other European country I've seen so many drivers ignoring road markings, indicator usage, and prohibited parking areas than in Ireland.

However, I myself do ignore road markings every day, as they are impossible to obey.
F.e lanes of 2metre width while vehicles I drive are up to 2.5m wide.

What vehicle is 2.5 metres wide??

ironclaw

GreeBo wrote: »

Is it an Irish thing to just ignore road markings and just weave across lanes?

They recently updated the road markings around Sandyford Industrial Estate (the slip road from Dundrum to the Industrial Estate and the Roundabout above the M50)
The markings on the roundabout are much easier to follow and means that the traffic flows freely around the roundabout; yet people just wander across the lanes oblivious to cars proceeding in the correct lane. I have to sit on the horn every evening as someone wanders into my lane.

They changed the sliproad so that its only for traffic not going into the Industrial Estate, if you want to go there just use the roundabout; yet every morning the road turns to chaos and grinds to a halt as people stop in the middle of the road indicating to cut one or 2 lanes across the hatching.

Why is this? Are they stupid or they just dont care as long as its easier for them? Can you be ticketed/fined for crossing hatching? Is there anywhere that has those bendy cones to prevent people from crossing hatching? (I know sometimes its at the start of hatching but how about the whole way?)

Is it just me?:(

Came back from the States recently and noticed the hatching. Having not travelled the Dundrum slip road, is it clearly marked that you can't take the slip road to the industrial estate and have to use the roundabout? While crossing a hatch is illegal, and nothing annoys me more, if you are unaware of the hatching, you have to go around the world to get back to Sandyford, causing utter panic. No excuse either way.

Which highlights another Irish-ism. Why do Irish people think if they miss a turn its the end of the world? I doubt there is a stretch in Dublin where it would cost you more than 10 mins to re-route.

Bohrio

Indricotherium wrote: »

What vehicle is 2.5 metres wide??

easy...



Very common in Ireland

I remember seeing this in USA while driving on the highway and made the Range Rover besides it look like a Panda... impressive beast

Bohrio

ironclaw wrote: »

Came back from the States recently and noticed the hatching. Having not travelled the Dundrum slip road, is it clearly marked that you can't take the slip road to the industrial estate and have to use the roundabout? While crossing a hatch is illegal, and nothing annoys me more, if you are unaware of the hatching, you have to go around the world to get back to Sandyford, causing utter panic. No excuse either way.

Which highlights another Irish-ism. Why do Irish people think if they miss a turn its the end of the world? I doubt there is a stretch in Dublin where it would cost you more than 10 mins to re-route.

I totally agree with you, it is a ridiculous setting, mostly because you wont realize you are in the wrong exit until is too late... First time I came across this new marking I went over the continuous line, since then I always take the roundabout... but it is a pain indeed

pred racer

Stheno wrote: »

Try Malta, Italy, or Cyprus.

Or france!

In fact the only places ive ever been that do obey them are, uk, germany and built up parts of the US.

CiniO

dahamsta wrote: »

I think the problem with the horn is as much to do with our lack of use as it is with competence. Admittedly the likes of Italians use it way too much, but I think we use it way too little.

When I posted a video here few months ago when someone came out of blind bend on wrong side of the road ovetaking straight towards me, and I kept horn pressed while braking, most people here told me that I shouldn't have used horn at all as there was no need for it.

CiniO

Indricotherium wrote: »

What vehicle is 2.5 metres wide??

Nearly every bus or truck.

dahamsta

CiniO wrote: »

When I posted a video here few months ago when someone came out of blind bend on wrong side of the road ovetaking straight towards me, and I kept horn pressed while braking, most people here told me that I shouldn't have used horn at all as there was no need for it.

There's a difference between honking at someone to let them know they're drifting into your lane, and holding the horn down in a fit of pique because you can't fit your car through a gap wide enough to accommodate a Cunard liner.

Bruthal

GreeBo wrote: »

Is it an Irish thing to just ignore road markings and just weave across lanes?

They recently updated the road markings around Sandyford Industrial Estate (the slip road from Dundrum to the Industrial Estate and the Roundabout above the M50)
The markings on the roundabout are much easier to follow and means that the traffic flows freely around the roundabout; yet people just wander across the lanes oblivious to cars proceeding in the correct lane. I have to sit on the horn every evening as someone wanders into my lane.

They changed the sliproad so that its only for traffic not going into the Industrial Estate, if you want to go there just use the roundabout; yet every morning the road turns to chaos and grinds to a halt as people stop in the middle of the road indicating to cut one or 2 lanes across the hatching.

Why is this? Are they stupid or they just dont care as long as its easier for them? Can you be ticketed/fined for crossing hatching? Is there anywhere that has those bendy cones to prevent people from crossing hatching? (I know sometimes its at the start of hatching but how about the whole way?)

Is it just me?:(

Thats my belief. Bad drivers are often simply stupid people. The prime example of this imo is drivers going down ramps onto motorways at 80kph, but after doing so probably hundreds of times, still fail to work out why merging is difficult. Even a non driver can see the problem.

Bruthal

dahamsta wrote: »

There's a difference between honking at someone to let them know they're drifting into your lane, and holding the horn down in a fit of pique because you can't fit your car through a gap wide enough to accommodate a Cunard liner.

I never use it at all, with the exception of people dozing at a red light that changes to green. A little beep to wake them. Other than that, never.

anthony4335

My favorite is you come up to a roundabout take the right lane to turn right, another car in the left hand lane going straight on . Nothing difficult about the roundabout ,almost perfect rules of the road style roundabout and as you proceed the car in the left drives almost straight on cutting you up. Unfortunately most small roundabouts do not have any lane markings on the roundabout so they technically have done nothing wrong but what the hell are they thinking. Also never trust the indicator. We have a traffic core in the country but I have never heard of anyone ever getting pulled for incorrect used of a roundabout, indicator or anything other than speeding. (this is not garda bashing as they are doing the job in most cases to the best of their abilities with the resources and instruction given from the management)

alias no.9

Its not stupidity, because most people simply aren't stupid, its willful ignorance.

Bruthal

alias no.9 wrote: »

Its not stupidity, because most people simply aren't stupid, its willful ignorance.

Some is ignorance, but the example of driving down ramps at 80kph or less, to merge into 120kph traffic, causing difficulty for themselves, and failing to work out why after doing so countless times. Stupidity Id say.

jimmy the car

Just wondering is this technically breaking the law....coming up to roundabout, left lane for left and straight on, right lane for turning right (obviously) left lane stretching waaaay back with traffic not a sinner in right lane, take right lane and just proceed right round the roundabout ignoring 3rd exit just for going straight on and thus avoiding all traffic in left lane...that make sense?!

im invisible

Perfect.

pred racer

jimmy the car wrote: »

Just wondering is this technically breaking the law....coming up to roundabout, left lane for left and straight on, right lane for turning right (obviously) left lane stretching waaaay back with traffic not a sinner in right lane, take right lane and just proceed right round the roundabout ignoring 3rd exit just for going straight on and thus avoiding all traffic in left lane...that make sense?!

Dunno about the legality, but I do it all the time

jimmy the car

pred racer wrote: »

Dunno about the legality, but I do it all the time

Did it myself yesterday and was just thinking when driving off after roundabout if the Garda had of been sitting there could/would they have done anything?!

Del2005

GreeBo wrote: »

Is it an Irish thing to just ignore road markings and just weave across lanes?

They recently updated the road markings around Sandyford Industrial Estate (the slip road from Dundrum to the Industrial Estate and the Roundabout above the M50)
The markings on the roundabout are much easier to follow and means that the traffic flows freely around the roundabout; yet people just wander across the lanes oblivious to cars proceeding in the correct lane. I have to sit on the horn every evening as someone wanders into my lane.

They changed the sliproad so that its only for traffic not going into the Industrial Estate, if you want to go there just use the roundabout; yet every morning the road turns to chaos and grinds to a halt as people stop in the middle of the road indicating to cut one or 2 lanes across the hatching.

Why is this? Are they stupid or they just dont care as long as its easier for them? Can you be ticketed/fined for crossing hatching? Is there anywhere that has those bendy cones to prevent people from crossing hatching? (I know sometimes its at the start of hatching but how about the whole way?)

Is it just me?:(

Is there a sign before the slip road informing you that you can't access the Industrial estate from the link road? If not then is it not the councils fault for changing the road layout and not informing motorists? It's a bit like non standard roundabouts, ie the South entrance to Bray. If you go into the correct lane for a standard roundabout you're in the wrong lane for Bray, but the only sign informing you of this is 10m from the roundabout on the road and usually covered by another vehicle.

In saying that there are an awful lot of ignorant drivers out there. I usually know when I breaking a law/ROTR make a decision to do it anyway and drive accordingly, but the amount of people who have no idea what they are doing on the roads is crazy.

pred racer

jimmy the car wrote: »

Did it myself yesterday and was just thinking when driving off after roundabout if the Garda had of been sitting there could/would they have done anything?!

I dont know, they have never bothered me!

Chris_Heilong

jimmy the car wrote: »

Just wondering is this technically breaking the law....coming up to roundabout, left lane for left and straight on, right lane for turning right (obviously) left lane stretching waaaay back with traffic not a sinner in right lane, take right lane and just proceed right round the roundabout ignoring 3rd exit just for going straight on and thus avoiding all traffic in left lane...that make sense?!

This is what roundabouts are designed for and it is legal.

keithclancy

Turbo Roundabouts with separators would solve that issue fairly well.

E.G.


You choose your lane entering the roundabout,

changing lane mid roundabout requires crossing a ramp.

From above it looks something similar to this:

ironclaw

Del2005 wrote: »

ie the South entrance to Bray.

Ah, thats roundabout! Know it all too well.

The lane from the N11 Southbound is in fact a single lane. It only splits at the very top. Left lane for Enniskerry / N11 North and the right lane for every other exit. Its just a local thing that people split into two just at the corner to allow people not wishing to stay in traffic to exit quickly to Enniskerry etc.

The problem however is many motorists see themselves above the time of others and use the left lane to skip traffic, subsequently cutting into traffic in the correct lane taking the roundabout. The roundabout is one lane and cutting in is extremely dangerous. I've seen people cut up the left lane, to cut all the way to the Southern Cross. Thats 3 exits. Its most prolific in the mornings and rush hour. Funny how people choose the right lane when there is no traffic

Its clearly marked before one enters the roundabout so there is no excuse. If someone is genuinely in the wrong lane, they can easily loop over the fly over or through the garage. Cutting in is borderline lunacy.

Map Link: http://goo.gl/maps/9XBKW

GreeBo

Del2005 wrote: »

Is there a sign before the slip road informing you that you can't access the Industrial estate from the link road? If not then is it not the councils fault for changing the road layout and not informing motorists? It's a bit like non standard roundabouts, ie the South entrance to Bray. If you go into the correct lane for a standard roundabout you're in the wrong lane for Bray, but the only sign informing you of this is 10m from the roundabout on the road and usually covered by another vehicle.

In saying that there are an awful lot of ignorant drivers out there. I usually know when I breaking a law/ROTR make a decision to do it anyway and drive accordingly, but the amount of people who have no idea what they are doing on the roads is crazy.

There is a sign that shows the slip road is for places other than the industrial estate. The sign at the roundabout shows the industrial estate.

In any case, I see the same cars doing it every morning.
They bring traffic thats trying to get towards Dundrum/Stillorgan to a standstill as they sit int he wrong lane indicating to cross the hatching.

I'd stick cones up there and/or a Traffic Corps guy and sort them out with tickets.

CiniO

dahamsta wrote: »

There's a difference between honking at someone to let them know they're drifting into your lane, and holding the horn down in a fit of pique because you can't fit your car through a gap wide enough to accommodate a Cunard liner.

You obviously didn't watch the video.
The gap wasn't wide enough to fit a motorbike.

blackwhite

jimmy the car wrote: »

Just wondering is this technically breaking the law....coming up to roundabout, left lane for left and straight on, right lane for turning right (obviously) left lane stretching waaaay back with traffic not a sinner in right lane, take right lane and just proceed right round the roundabout ignoring 3rd exit just for going straight on and thus avoiding all traffic in left lane...that make sense?!

Depends on what the traffic in the left lane is doing.

If the left lane is full of vehicles that are turning left then you are ok. If the traffic in the left hand lane is queuing to go straight on then you'd be in bother if a Garda actually saw and stopped you (the chances of a Garda stopping you without having been sent from the station with express instructions to police that roundabout may vary from Garda to Garda).

Bruthal

blackwhite wrote: »

Depends on what the traffic in the left lane is doing.

If the left lane is full of vehicles that are turning left then you are ok. If the traffic in the left hand lane is queuing to go straight on then you'd be in bother if a Garda actually saw and stopped you (the chances of a Garda stopping you without having been sent from the station with express instructions to police that roundabout may vary from Garda to Garda).

I dont see how going left or straight on for the left lane makes a difference. The poster going right the way around will be on the roundabout, and the line of cars coming to the roundabout will have to give way equally, regardless if they are going straight on or left.

Looking again maybe you meant a garda might be more annoyed if the poster is going straight on and the left lane traffic is all going straight on, and the poster skips it all. I think a garda would want to catch him doing it more than once. I doubt it is mentioned anywhere as illegal though.

Bohrio

CiniO wrote: »

You obviously didn't watch the video.
The gap wasn't wide enough to fit a motorbike.

I am not sure if we are talking about the same video or the same gap, if it is the video i remember, werent you overtook by a volkswagen golf after you came to a complete stop? I think he had to move to the hardshoulder, do you mean the gap on the right? If that's the case then indeed the gap on the right side was pretty narrow...

CiniO

Bohrio wrote: »

I am not sure if we are talking about the same video or the same gap, if it is the video i remember, werent you overtook by a volkswagen golf after you came to a complete stop? I think he had to move to the hardshoulder, do you mean the gap on the right? If that's the case then indeed the gap on the right side was pretty narrow...

I mean the gap on the left.
And it definitely wasn't hard shoulder. I would call it rather soft-shoulder as it was grass full of holes...
And that golf eventually hit the barrier...

Bohrio

CiniO wrote: »

I mean the gap on the left.
And it definitely wasn't hard shoulder. I would call it rather soft-shoulder as it was grass full of holes...
And that golf eventually hit the barrier...

So you mean that a motorbike wont fit in the gap on the left then? I am not getting it...

Yeah, I remember the golf hitting the barrier... can't say I am surprised it hit the barrier as both his left wheels were on the grass

Wexfordian

dahamsta wrote: »

All that being said, it can't be denied there is a major lack of competence in Ireland. I see multiple examples of truly terrible driving every day; hell, I drive the N25 multiple times a week, where a good 75% of the traffic lives in the overtaking lane, and the remainder plods along at 90kph in the driving lane despite the (it's not a target! :rolleyes:) 120kph limit. Except when they're wandering between them randomly, of course.

N25? 120kph? Unless the East Cork Parkway is, I didn't think there was a 120kph stretch? Definitely isn't from Waterford to the N25/N11 join anyway. Thought most of the upgrades on the Cork side of Waterford were suspended?

dahamsta

120 eastbound from the end of the tunnel / Little Island on-ramp to the end of the 2nd Carrigtwohill on-ramp. The westbound markers are in equivalent locations, taking the ramps into account. They were suspended for a while because of road works, but they've been in place for a good while, maybe 2 years or more?

There's 120 stretches on the West Cork side too, on what will become the N40 shortly. They might be suspended at the moment though, because of the road works. The road works limits are certainly being enforced, they're littered with cops and speed vans.

Wexfordian

dahamsta wrote: »

120 eastbound from the end of the tunnel / Little Island on-ramp to the end of the 2nd Carrigtwohill on-ramp. The westbound markers are in equivalent locations, taking the ramps into account. They were suspended for a while because of road works, but they've been in place for a good while, maybe 2 years or more?

There's 120 stretches on the West Cork side too, on what will become the N40 shortly. They might be suspended at the moment though, because of the road works. The road works limits are certainly being enforced, they're littered with cops and speed vans.

Ah, ok. I don't get to that end of it often, mainly between Dungarvan and Wexford.

blackwhite

robbie7730 wrote: »

I dont see how going left or straight on for the left lane makes a difference. The poster going right the way around will be on the roundabout, and the line of cars coming to the roundabout will have to give way equally, regardless if they are going straight on or left.

Looking again maybe you meant a garda might be more annoyed if the poster is going straight on and the left lane traffic is all going straight on, and the poster skips it all. I think a garda would want to catch him doing it more than once. I doubt it is mentioned anywhere as illegal though.

Didn't read his post properly, missed the bit where he mentioned going all of the way around first - thought he meant shooting up the right and trying to just go straight through without doing to loop

Agreed, can't see anything illegal with what he suggested, even if it might piss off people in the left hand lane.

Seasoft

keithclancy wrote: »

Turbo Roundabouts with separators would solve that issue fairly well.

E.G.


You choose your lane entering the roundabout,

changing lane mid roundabout requires crossing a ramp.

As a matter of interest, at these Dutch roundabouts, which traffic has right-of-way? Traffic on the roundaabout or traffic entering it? Judging by the truck it seems to be the latter.

The design of roundabout seems excellent and would eliminate a lot of poor driving practice if adopted/adapted here.

Seasoft

A pet peeve of mine: Since the M50 went to 3 carriageways each way, many of the on-ramps were designed with two lanes (e.g. J4, J5). Take the left lane and you have a bit of a drive before being able to merge into the driving lane due to a long hatched median. However, often I see motorists leaving the entry lane and crossing the hatched area to enter the driving lane. And due to the width of the hatched median they cannot judge how to merge safely and regularly almost sideswipe traffic in the driving lane who are not expecting anything to come from their left.
What do they think? That if they stay a little longer they'll end up missing the motorway?
A good case for bollards, as would be the case in Spain where they seem to use them at every traffic island, median, etc.

Bruthal

Seasoft wrote: »

The design of roundabout seems excellent and would eliminate a lot of poor driving practice if adopted/adapted here.

For drivers here, railway tracks would be needed to keep them in lane.

movingsucks

I hope it's OK to add to this thread,
Has anyone driven up the quay in Wexford?
The bit before the bridge is insane. There's only one lane and then it splits into two at the traffic lights - one for straight one for left. Before the lane splits as a motorist you are "expected" to move onto the hatching to enable the people trying to make the green left arrow to over take on the left by sticking two wheels up on the path and driving up to where the lane actually starts and as a pedestrian you are "expected" to move in on the path out of the way of the car. It's actually frightening.