Irish Aid to Uganda

gizmo555

Kevin Myers posed a very good question in his Indo column on Friday to which I can't think of any good answer: why did Ireland give €33m in aid last year to a country which at the same time spent $740m on six of these:



I'd have to agree with Myers that it's completely bonkers that we are borrowing money we don't have to give to a country which is spending such enormous sums on military hardware. And we're indirectly subsidising the Russian arms industry into the bargain.

Can anyone else make any sense of this? It beats the hell out of me . . .

not yet

Ah sure it'll be alright, we are getting a deal on our bank debt so it's not going to cost us as much to buy those planes.

juan.kerr

Makes no sense at all as to why we are subsiding the Russian arms industry and giving 'aid' to countries that spend more on their military than we do.

Manach

This would be an example of why the aid budget should be more specifically targeted to countries which are in more genuine need of it, of which Uganda is not.

van_beano

The whole oversea's Aid that Ireland is contributing to at the moment is, in my opinion, complete madness anyways, regardless of what country is getting the Aid. Since we've practically zero growth in this country, should these countries that we contributed to over the years start contributing to us??

juan.kerr

van_beano wrote: »

The whole oversea's Aid that Ireland is contributing to at the moment is, in my opinion, complete madness anyways, regardless of what country is getting the Aid. Since we've practically zero growth in this country, should these countries that we contributed to over the years start contributing to us??

Let them start handing out the Trocaire boxes to their schoolkids.

sock puppet

van_beano wrote: »

The whole oversea's Aid that Ireland is contributing to at the moment is, in my opinion, complete madness anyways, regardless of what country is getting the Aid. Since we've practically zero growth in this country, should these countries that we contributed to over the years start contributing to us??

Man of them are (indirectly) through contributions to the IMF.

juan.kerr

sock puppet wrote: »

Man of them are (indirectly) through contributions to the IMF.

Loans with interest doesn't equal charity or aid.

sock puppet

juan.kerr wrote: »

Loans with interest doesn't equal charity or aid.

What does that have to do with it? The IMF don't pay a dividend.

juan.kerr

sock puppet wrote: »

What does that have to do with it? The IMF don't pay a dividend.

It's as relevant as bringing up the IMF into this thread. Countries fund the IMF for their own benefit. We just happen to be current recipients of IMF loans.

juan.kerr

sock puppet wrote: »

What does that have to do with it? The IMF don't pay a dividend.

Incidentally, our IMF quota is 7 times that of Uganda, so we contributed significantly more to our own IMF loans than Uganda and any of the other third world countries.

http://www.imf.org/external/np/sec/memdir/members.aspx#I

Japer

gizmo555 wrote: »

Kevin Myers posed a very good question in his Indo column on Friday to which I can't think of any good answer: why did Ireland give €33m in aid last year to a country which at the same time spent $740m on six of these:



I'd have to agree with Myers that it's completely bonkers that we are borrowing money we don't have to give to a country which is spending such enormous sums on military hardware. And we're indirectly subsidising the Russian arms industry into the bargain.

Can anyone else make any sense of this? It beats the hell out of me . . .

because the backhanders / brown envelopes from the russian arms industry make their way through Uganda to certain Irish people. I have no doubt that irish do-gooders make money out of us borrowing money ( to be repaid by all our grandkids ) to give to Uganda to buy warplanes.
A few years ago we gave money / aid to a nuclear power, Pakistan. Bonkers.

sock puppet

juan.kerr wrote: »

It's as relevant as bringing up the IMF into this thread. Countries fund the IMF for their own benefit. We just happen to be current recipients of IMF loans.

So the same logic doesn't apply to international aid?

juan.kerr

sock puppet wrote: »

So the same logic doesn't apply to international aid?

No. The IMF isn't a charitable / benevolent organisation.

What benefit did we ever get from giving aid to Uganda or Ethiopia? We did it entirely for their benefit, not ours.

Cork boy 55

juan.kerr wrote: »

No. The IMF isn't a charitable / benevolent organisation.

What benefit did we ever get from giving aid to Uganda or Ethiopia? We did it entirely for their benefit, not ours.

This is the third time Kevin Myres has brought this up in his columns
Met with silence from your political class not one of them will say anything
whatever the debate on IrishAID giving money to a place like Uganda is a disgrace

Tullow Oil appears to have benefited
several FF are shareholders with Tullow oil and numerous other connections.
Michael Martin met them during his trip to Uganda in 2010.

old thread from 2010 on it here good thread on politics.ie on it as well link is this thread
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=66695063

Scortho

I never understood the idea of giving aid to foreign countries when we had so many problems here at home.

Fair enough with people donating privately to NGOs but the idea of the government donating money to foreign countries when we have 100s of people sleeping on the streets of our major cities each night and people being kept on trollies and unemployment as high as it is doesnt seem right.

Crumlin Hospital were fundraising for an unpgrade to their cancer ward earlier on in the year. Surely this 33 million would have been better spent on this than towards foreign aid.

No point borrowing to fund foreign countries when we we're cutting funding towards vital services here at home!

Yes cuts have to be made and the books balanced. THis should be one of them!

Hotblack Desiato

Taxes should not be used to fund charity at home or abroad. The payment of tax is not optional. If I want to give to a charity then I will do so myself, the government should not be reaching into my pocket to do it for me. I do not donate to Irish charities because of their lack of transparency and regulation, some of them exist primarily for the benefit of their founders/employees.

tomby527

Response to Myer's article published on www.developmenteducation.ie called, We need to talk about Kevin.
http://www.developmenteducation.ie/blog/2012/10/we-need-to-talk-about-kevin/

It took many many years before overseas aid spending was cranked up to current levels at the DFA, based on a various long term public (and popular) campaigns over 20 years for it. It is now at the core of how Ireland views itself and acts outside Ireland. This is something to be proud of.

The question then is not 'why aid?', but 'how is it being spent?' Not something that should be trivialized to the nth degree then through such sensationalist tracts, Kevin.

[Jackass]

Trade, not aid.

It's a raging debate, on the face of it, yes aid has proven to be useless, as it is often syphoned off through corrupt Governments to a political elite as well as used to fund oppressive political regimes and in the acts of genocide.

There are economic principles to it also though, such as the Millennium Development Goals and development through the HDI. Some argue that aid should be directly linked to HDI performance, others argue that trade is the answer, assisting in the setting up of local industry and having trade agreements with them, funds going directly to the impovrished, but then you have to wonder how long it would remain sincere aid and not be siezed in such politically volatile regions.

Bill Gates is a big advocate of debt forgiveness and trade, not aid, but the whole 3rd world problem is a taboo political problem that is swept under the carpet, but history has shown that no amount of money thrown at the problem can help, as trillions has been wasted over the last half century, more than enough to develop a civalised society.

Cork boy 55

Irish govt just cut the aid to Uganda govt over corruption, NGO aid continues

Minister for Foreign Affairs Eamon Gilmore has suspended all Irish Aid payments channelled through the Ugandan government after allegations that €4m in aid has been misappropriated.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/1025/irish-aid-payments-stopped-after-4m-goes-missing.html

SubBusted

gizmo555 wrote: »

Can anyone else make any sense of this? It beats the hell out of me . . .

If Ireland ever gets attacked we can phone Uganda and they will fly their fighter jets here to help defend our fair land.

I didn't think Gilmore was capable of such swift and sensible decision making. Shocking stuff!

zenno

I think a review-board is in order to study all other countries the government donate monies to and also get more Auditors to look into all of these other ones. Irish Investigative journalists should get stuck in as well to see what is really going on.

Hidalgo

Manach wrote: »

This would be an example of why the aid budget should be more specifically targeted to countries which are in more genuine need of it, of which Uganda is not.

Just because a state is spending money on military hardware doesn't mean its citizens are not in need of aid. Problem is it doesn't filter through to those who need it. citizens of Uganda might be in need of aid more than than other states.

Japer

Charity should begin at home, instead of us ( as a bankrupt, insolvent country ) borrowing yet more vast amounts of money to give to other dubious regimes.

Victor

zenno wrote: »

I think a review-board is in order to study all other countries the government donate monies to and also get more Auditors to look into all of these other ones. Irish Investigative journalists should get stuck in as well to see what is really going on.

A friend is an auditor. A few years ago he spent about a month in 3(?) African countries doing audits - pick random projects and see if they have been completed. All Irish Aid funding is dependent on previously funded projects being completed.

Hidalgo wrote: »

Just because a state is spending money on military hardware doesn't mean its citizens are not in need of aid. Problem is it doesn't filter through to those who need it. citizens of Uganda might be in need of aid more than than other states.

Agreed.

zenno

Victor wrote: »

A friend is an auditor. A few years ago he spent about a month in 3(?) African countries doing audits - pick random projects and see if they have been completed. All Irish Aid funding is dependent on previously funded projects being completed.


Agreed.

Mr Gilmore said the Government, through Irish Aid, was due to pledge €17 million to the east African state but will withhold the €16 million still due pending the inquiry..

It seems very strange that if this €4m Euro was fraud at work by the Ugandan government then i can't see why they would damage themselves as they were going to receive an up-coming €16 million. Why take a chance like this when you are going to receive €16m ?. seems strange.

zenno

Hidalgo wrote: »

Just because a state is spending money on military hardware doesn't mean its citizens are not in need of aid. Problem is it doesn't filter through to those who need it. citizens of Uganda might be in need of aid more than than other states.

Then stop the funding. If said funding is not reaching the poorest that need it then remove the funding and re-structure your ways of making damn sure the funding does get to the poorest and not spent on any military project.

Hotblack Desiato

Hidalgo wrote: »

Just because a state is spending money on military hardware doesn't mean its citizens are not in need of aid. Problem is it doesn't filter through to those who need it. citizens of Uganda might be in need of aid more than than other states.

Then their government needs to look at their priorities, don't you think?

If we are funding any such country, by taking on the funding of food/education/etc we're simply freeing up their own resources to divert them to spend on weapons and almost certainly making the situation ultimately far worse.

The best thing we can do for Africa is free up trade and leave it alone. But that doesn't jive with the thousands employed in very well-paid jobs in the Irish charity industry, or the general soft-headness of the Irish people when presented with what they think is a 'good cause'. cf. the funds given to the 'Chernobyl Children' scam when no child alive today was materially affected by that incident.

passarellaie

Ireland is spending 700 million on foreign aid per year.Imagine what that could do for the health service!

Japer

passarellaie wrote: »

Ireland is spending 700 million on foreign aid per year.Imagine what that could do for the health service!

do not forget our kids and grandkids will be paying interest on each and every years borrowings until its repaid. Its only a few years since Germany completed paying money it owed since the end of WW1.

passarellaie

Japer wrote: »

do not forget our kids and grandkids will be paying interest on each and every years borrowings until its repaid. Its only a few years since Germany completed paying money it owed since the end of WW1.

This has to become an electoral issue.apart from the lunacy of it all just imagine the potential for kick backs to corrupt politicos like Haughey who wasnt afraid of screwing his friend Brian

gizmo555

tomby527 wrote: »

Response to Myer's article published on www.developmenteducation.ie called, We need to talk about Kevin.
http://www.developmenteducation.ie/blog/2012/10/we-need-to-talk-about-kevin/

It took many many years before overseas aid spending was cranked up to current levels at the DFA, based on a various long term public (and popular) campaigns over 20 years for it. It is now at the core of how Ireland views itself and acts outside Ireland. This is something to be proud of.

The question then is not 'why aid?', but 'how is it being spent?' Not something that should be trivialized to the nth degree then through such sensationalist tracts, Kevin.

As we now know, Myers was spot on with regard to the insanity of putting this aid under the direct control of notoriously corrupt politicians. As reported this week, €4m of last year's Irish aid contribution was embezzled. Not much to be proud of there, unless you take pride in being conned.

Anyway, even if all our aid had been spent as intended, it would still amount to an indirect subsidy of Uganda's massive spending on military hardware.

ART6

Some points here that occur to me:
The Irish people have an extraordinary record of charitable donations to the poor and suffering of other countries, and all of those donations from individuals were voluntary.
The government's overseas aid programme is not voluntary. The taxpayer is given no say in it or any choice over where it is offered.
It is very easy for a politician to bask on the world stage for the generosity of Ireland when it is not his money he is spending.
For many countries, the purpose of overseas aid is to get something back in return -- more business? The friendship of a grateful nation? How much business for Ireland does Uganda generate, and how much value is to be placed upon their friendship? It's a tough world out there and we are not an international St. Vincent de Paul.

From this I form the conviction that there should be no official overseas aid programme. The government and the image-chasing ministers should never be allowed to spend taxpayers money in this way. Ireland is a tiny and insolvent country and it cannot save the starving children of any African dictator state when the rulers there don't give a damn who starves, and who only want to build up their military at our expense to subdue their starving when they finally erupt in despair.

My conclusion is that "political aspirations" and "charity" are mutually exclusive!:mad: