Group-set brand loyalty and such

fat bloke

I've never really had anything but Shimano, and I've never really had a problem with it, and as a result I quite like it. I've had Ultegra, 105 and dura ace of various vintages and everything was hunky dory.

Like mobile phones, once you get used to an OS and it integrates itself with your other hard and software, once you build up a selection of wheels and bikes and cassettes it just makes sense to stick with what you have, but.... I kind of have an opportunity now to jump ship and so I'm looking at the other big two - campag and sram, and wondering what I should do, or what y'all would do.

I'm hoping to get a flash new bike for next year and with DA going 11 speed, it's going to affect compatibility with my old stuff ANYway, so it's not such an upset anymore to consider a different manufacturer. So I'm looking at sram red, or campag something or other - super record would be lovely of course, depending on price and all that.

So, what's the deal? I must say that the Shimano train is fierce handy for picking up or off-loading wheels here and there second hand, and swopping over and out with other bikes and my wife's bike etc. So maybe Sram is the less inconvenient of two evils in that sense. I do like the idea of trying sram out and I also like the weight weenie aspect to it. Plus (and possibly the lightest-weight reason ever to change an entire groupset) I like the red bit on the levers:rolleyes::D. It's a neat aesthetic touch that just seems to look well on any bike on which I've seen it.

It's not the end of the world is it to change shifting-allegiances is it, so it's not really that big a deal, but if the pricing is similar I'll have a choice to make. Whatcha reckon.

Lumen

Modern Shimano cranks are ugly.

Now that Shimano are going 11sp nothing will be compatible so just pick whatever floats your boat.

FISMA

fat bloke wrote: »

It's not the end of the world is it to change shifting-allegiances is it, so it's not really that big a deal, but if the pricing is similar I'll have a choice to make. Whatcha reckon.

I wouldn't give it a second thought, price, performance, and weight are my only allegiances. With that, I have owned: 600, Ultegra, DA, LX, XT, and XTR.

I currently love my 10sp DA, however, I think the next round will be SRAM.

Still have years left on the DA though.

Plastik

All Sram 10speed and Shimano 10speed and completely interchangeable in terms of wheels, cassettes, cranksets etc. Campag is out on its own. If you go Sram it'll work with all/any older stuff you have at home.

fat bloke

Lumen wrote: »

Modern Shimano cranks are ugly.

Now that Shimano are going 11sp nothing will be compatible so just pick whatever floats your boat.

The new four-arm dura ace chain set is unusual looking alright, but it seems it'll now take any size chain ring so no more shelling out for a compact chainset, just change the rings. - Don't know how far apart they can be though.

55:34 anyone?:pac:

metamagical

Lumen wrote: »

Now that Shimano are going 11sp nothing will be compatible so just pick whatever floats your boat.

What the man said.

If you're looking at Record or DA, all of it works and works very well. I switched over to campag and now much prefer the shifter ergonomics, and getting parts and wheels has never been an issue. As it's all 11 speed, it's also been nice to be able to mix and match Chorus and Record.

Plus, it looks cool - always a valid reason to upgrade :cool:

gman2k

I was normally a Campag man, with Record 10 on the carbon bike.
I was building up an old machine and stuck triple Sora 8 on it, and found it excellent, so swapped out the Sora for Ultegra triple - lovely stuff indeed!
Back on topic, the Campag stuff is generally built to last, and will hold its value better also.

morana

gman2k wrote: »

I was normally a Campag man, with Record 10 on the carbon bike.
I was building up an old machine and stuck triple Sora 8 on it, and found it excellent, so swapped out the Sora for Ultegra triple - lovely stuff indeed!
Back on topic, the Campag stuff is generally built to last, and will hold its value better also.

nail on the head there. Shimano stuff is soft not durable hence me using campag although the Di2 is attractive to me. the campag stuff is far too expensive....

sherlok

i use Campag on both my road bikes and i can't wear anything out enough to justify an upgrade. Campag seems very durable to me.

I've used Shimano and SRAM in the past, and i wouldn't be disappointed with any of them. Functionally they all do what they need to do.

Aesthetically, Campag looks a bit more traditional to me, and being an old fart i like that. Having said that I do like the look of the new DA even it it looks like it's travelled back from the future!

fat bloke

morana wrote: »

nail on the head there. Shimano stuff is soft not durable ....

You think? Jaysus I dunno about that. I'm no maintenance queen and I put miles & years on second hand Ultegra with no issue. The dura ace on my good bike was sweet as a nut for 3 years. My wife's old Colnago, must be 20 years old bought 2nd hand 12 years ago, constant use since, same old dura ace groupset. Still shifting.

Soft, it ain't.

(in my experience)

gman2k

New Shimano is soft! old stuff is grand, but Campag is easiest to get spares for apparently!

doozerie

I've always considered Campag more durable, going back more than 20 years to when I first found myself replacing worn Shimano parts more often than I'd have expected to. I've had some Shimano parts last an age since then but they've been the exception so my perception hasn't changed. It's very subjective though, and there are many factors that influence how long a part lasts or doesn't last. If I was buying from scratch now though, I'd find it a tough choice, even though I'd still expect that Shimano parts wouldn't last as long. For now I remain a Campag person on my "nice" bikes, but Shimano on my commute bikes. I've never tried Sram and it seems to divide people when it comes to reliability and longevity.

There are some functional difference between Campag and Shimano that sometimes matter to me though:
* I don't like the fact that both brake and gear lever swivel on Shimano, I like the "stability" of my Campag brake levers not moving sideways.
* Campag calipers don't have a variably adjustable quick-release so there is no quick means of opening out the calipers in a hurry without affecting brake lever position. Sometimes that's a (minor) niggle.
* With Campag you can change multiple gears in one move, I'm not sure how many you can shift on Shimano these days but it used to be less. Mind you, I've never found a situation where I've had to move right across the cassette so it hasn't been a benefit to me in practice.
* Replacement parts are available for a whole host of Campag stuff. For example I've rebuilt my 10+yr old ergolevers with new springs and associated bits to make them a good as new. You can also buy replacement levers/blades too so snapping a Campag brake lever blade in a crash does not write off the entire ergolever. Having said that I'm not entirely sure what you can easily replace in Shimano shifters though, so this may not be at all exclusive to Campag.

Something else to bear in mind is that if you already have a set of tools for maintaining Shimano, you'll need some additional ones for Campag. Probably quite a small expense though in the context of a new bike.

Muckers

Sram red for me. Moved to Sram a couple of years back and theres no turning back now. The double click techno is a doddle. Just bought the new Red for a winter build project. Can't wait to get stuck into it.

Jawgap

SRAM for me - but that's really due to the fact that the first decent bike I got came with SRAM Rival. Since then I've come to appreciate the design and engineering, and now have Force on another bike.

I like the double-tap system, the braking and the fact that the handle-bars don't look like a plate cable-spaghetti. It's all very neat and it works, and keeps working with regular, but minimal maintenance on my part.

AstraMonti

It has to be campagnolo for me. Quality, beauty and serviceable to a crazy extend (albeit with a bit of a price). But it really comes down to what you like using, personally i hate SRAMs double tap, I don't mind about shimano and I love campaq's style. Doozerie's points are also all valid and correct.

Tonyandthewhale

Campagnolo, looks the best and (to my mind at least) feels the nicest ergonomically. I haven't had to do any servicing of shifters yet so won't say too much about that but it's nice to know the option is there.
Also, campagnolo shifters are much better value than shimano or sram (at least they were last time I checked) so even if you can't fix them, replacement is still easier.

Hungrycol

@ Fatbloke, would your budget stretch ot Di2 or (what I call) Ui2 or Campag EPS (ESP?)? I think the Shim elect looks better than the Campag aesthetically.

I think SRAM, as great as it is, run the risk of falling behind by not rolling out an electronic gruppo and they're still 10 speed. Teams like Liquigas must be putting the squeese on SRAM to release an electronic gruppo, but now they're gone Cannondale Pro team might be happy to stay all American anyway!

Aside: I think a lot of Shimanno teams use Ultegra cassettes cost of the lack of durability of the DA ones (titanium on the first 4 or 5 cogs).

Wibbs

Electronic shifting to me sounds like an over complication, a solution to a non existent problem, especially as it's a direct replacement for the mechanical. Now I could see electronic shifting being very cool if they thought out of the box. IE sequential shifting. This would reduce the rider to two levers. One up, one down. As you went up or down the CPU would work out the next gear up or down regardless of chain position on rear cassette or chainring. Obviously with the ability to dump through 5 or 6 positions etc.

There is a bit of bandwagonning going on all over the place. Campag come out with 11 speed(though were actually trying to make 10 speed shift better), then Shimano have to follow; "these go to eleven too".

As for SRAM maybe they're thinking out of the box themselves? Rather than jump on the Shimano bandwagon as Campag did, maybe something different? Hydraulic shifting and braking? While speaking as an poncy aesthete :D I think SRAM stuff will date very fast with their graphics and design they have brought new idea with their way of shifting. Nice to use too in my very brief encounter with it.

Shimano, before they finally ditched it with their Dura Ace had those(to my mind) awful looking and inelegant shift cables coming out of the hoods. Don't like the whole brake lever moving vibe either TBH. I personally don't like the general Shimano aesthetic of late. Their chainset design is an affront to the eyes IMH. Campag defo have usually had the edge there going way back. I have an 80's C record crank that you would happily mount on a plinth just to look at, though the later all carbon loses some of the elegance of their historical stuff. The Athena 11 speed in alloy is the sex though(again IMHO).

ON the rebuildable front... I was recently having this convo with a chap who really knows his stuff and he tells me that Campag are dropping the ball on this of late. Yes you can rebuild the shifters, but you have t send them to a Campag dealer, you can't get the individual washers and springs nearly as easily as before. Plus with the 11 speed chains you need new tools and all that shíte. The new power torque upgrade downgrade apparently needs a new puller tool to get the damn crank off.

Longevity wise the Campag stuff seems to still hold it's own. As someone said back in the day "nouvo record doesn't shift very well, but it'll keep on not shifting very well until doomsday".

fat bloke

Hungrycol wrote: »

@ Fatbloke, would your budget stretch ot Di2 or (what I call) Ui2 or Campag EPS (ESP?)? I think the Shim elect looks better than the Campag aesthetically.

I think SRAM, as great as it is, run the risk of falling behind by not rolling out an electronic gruppo and they're still 10 speed. Teams like Liquigas must be putting the squeese on SRAM to release an electronic gruppo, but now they're gone Cannondale Pro team might be happy to stay all American anyway!

Aside: I think a lot of Shimanno teams use Ultegra cassettes cost of the lack of durability of the DA ones (titanium on the first 4 or 5 cogs).

Nah. No interest in the Xi2. Partly the weight thing -dirty big heavy battery on a super-light build runs counter to my current intuition. Plus I had a rental bike with ultegra i2 on over the summer and while I really liked the shifting, we got caught in a shower of rain at one point, very heavy rain actually, but the the front mech stopped working for a while during and after. That put me off it a bit I have to say.

fat bloke

If I may be permitted to re-visit this old chestnut!

SRAM is out now I'm afraid, just when I was getting excited about the prospect. It's a massive jump up in price, so it's out of the equation

So now it's down to dura ace 7900 (10 speed) or campag super record 11 speed. The campag is a bit dearer, but still within range. So given those two as a choice, whatcha think.

Every logic screams DA at me because it's compatible with my shed and it's cheaper, and i know that it works, but I just really fancy a change and the campag is undoubtedly a cool looking groupset. The web also tells me that it's a bit lighter than the DA as well.

Cassette prices are a bit frickin mental though for the campag. Wiggle want 350 quid for a super record cassette...:eek: Just thinking about swopping wheels and stuff.

Chips Lovell

While I'd have Record on my good bike, I tend to go for the cheaper consumables, like Chorus cassettes and chains.

One thing to note is that Shimano too is moving towards 11 speed, so whatever you go with, you'll probably find yourself making the shift at some point or another.

fat bloke

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

While I'd have Record on my good bike, I tend to go for the cheaper consumables, like Chorus cassettes and chains.

One thing to note is that Shimano too is moving towards 11 speed, so whatever you go with, you'll probably find yourself making the shift at some point or another.

Well, this is why I want to buy once and buy right. While I'm getting a good deal, it's still a lot of money and this'll be my bike and set up for ... well three years at least I suppose. That's kind of what has me reluctant to go for the soon to be defunct dura ace. So I'm gazing into my campag crystal ball and wondering how the next three years will be in terms of replacement bits and bobs and all that.

Even looking at wiggle sales and stuff - it seems to be Shimano all the way, with lots of wheels not being listed at all with a campag option.

fat bloke

Well!

Pendulums (pendula) and see-saws abound. After all that, rang the shop back, got a better price and settled on the 2013 sram red!

Reading the reviews it seems like "da bomb", and it claims to be 300g (!!!!) lighter than either the new dura ace or the super record. For top level components, that's a colossal weight saving. I had pretty much decided on the campag too beforehand but the sram is similarly priced (though the sram is dearer), and critically, the sram is compatible with my shed, which was the pivotal decider in the end.

Getting excited now. Should be a super light build now.