Life in the Irish 'Big Houses'

jonniebgood1

A few links giving some insight into life in the Irish country estate houses, houses of the gentry, houses of the Anglo Irish, landlords, etc. I was particularly looking for details on the number of people serving in these houses which seems to have been very large and follows the precedent of the class system in English houses. Any further information is appreciated- were the servants, maids etc looked after by these landlords who may not have always been present.

Some thoughts on roles from a valet and butler at Lissadell house in Sligo:

When there was a big dinner on, Mr. Ball, the groom chamber, three footmen, under butler, John Kerins and I, all waited. I was the only one not in full dress. The full dress livery had dark blue coat, red vest, red plush breeches, white stockings, and shoes with buckles. The footmen wore white thick cotton gloves at all times for dinner. The same number of men waited lunch if the house was full. Groom chambers and two footmen waited breakfast. There was no china washed up in the pantry. This was done by the stillroom maids. They also put breakfast and tea things ready for footmen to carry upstairs. They made all the different fancy breads as well as all the household bread.
...
The kitchen staff consisted of cook, pastry cook, kitchen maid, scullery maid and help when required. Kitchen boys whose duties were to light all fires, clean out ashes, scour all coppers, all cooking was done on coppers. Look after two boilers, one in top scullery and one in bottom scullery. From these boilers all the hot water for baths, washing up, etc came. Pump water to tanks on roof from well in scullery. The cook was a Frenchman called Friburg. He was fond of whiskey, and engaged George Grigg’s horse and cart to take him to Sligo one or two days in the week. George was known as the bleeder in those days. Bleeding and leeches were a cure for all diseases. George was supposed to be a clever cow doctor or quack, and also helped all people who asked his services. He lived in Munnianane. He was a nice kindly old man. They sat in a public house in Sligo till it was time for Friburg to see about dinner. There was such a great number of servants in the house and stables and guests andcallers, it took a great quantity of meat to supply all. It was more like a hotel. There was a sheep killed every day. A beast every two weeks. They killed and saved their own bacon. Most of the game from shooting parties was consumed in the house. There was none sold. What could be spared was given as presents.

There was a great quantity of fowl, turkeys, geese and ducks eggs used. Mrs. Ball, the house steward’s wife, had charge of the fowl. She had a man and woman to help. Mrs Ball lived at Fairy Mount. There were several houses erected for the different breeds of fowl. There was a man, Pat Hack, came to the house each day for orders. If they came short of fowl or eggs, the man Hack went to the villages and purchased what was required. When I think back on what Lissadell was then, it would take volumes to describe. I forgot to mention there were no ranges in the kitchen, open fire place. There was a large iron screen in front of fire for heating dishes. The roasting of joints etc was done by a clockwork spit. There were two charcoal fires and what was called a plot plate, which is still there. There was a game larder in the yard. At one time they brewed their own beer and ale in one of the cellars in the yard.

That seems to be alot of staff. And some drink also:

There was beer served out to all the servants, both men and women, several times a day, at 11.00 a.m. dinner hour, 7.00 p.m. and again at supper. One pint each at the different hours. The room servants got ale, the groom chambers served ale, the under butler the beer. There came a cartload of beer and ale two days a week from Charles Anderson’s brewery, Sligo. Visiting servants, callers, keepers etc etc helped to drink part of this. Steward room servants had the same food as was served in the dining room. After coming from the dining room it was put on clean dishes, but not on silver ones, as the dining room. The steward’s room boy was in livery. He brought each course and cleared away. There was a bell outside the room with bell pull inside. He laid the dinner and supper table. The second stillroom maid laid the breakfast and tea table. The boy valeted the steward. He also laid the servants hall table for all meals, cleaned room and hall knives, polished the ladies maids boots. All ladies maids of the house, visiting maids, also had to dress with fairly low neck dresses. Valets had to appear in evening clothes. If you did not carry out all of those rules, your time would not be a pleasant one. Steward and housekeeper would make it very uncomfortable for you. At night there was whiskey and wines served. Usually, there was a small dance in the servant’s hall once or twice a week or three or four hours. They were allowed beer and a bottle of whiskey for punch. There was an old fiddler gave them music.

from http://www.sligoheritage.com/heritage.htm where there is alot more detail.


The following information shows how staff in emocourt were remembered in wills something which seems uncommon. http://www.emocourt.net/servants/Wills.htm

pedroeibar1

I’ve looked at a few Irish ‘Big Houses’ around the 1900-1922 era. A couple of great sources are the Censuses of 1901 & 1911, which list the names, occupations, religion and nationality of all residents. In the few big houses I’ve looked at the senior servants inevitably were English/Scottish and Protestant; the most junior (scullery & kitchen maids) were Catholic, as were the outdoor under-servants. Gamekeepers usually were imported, but that probably was a training/work experience thing. One c1900 Kerry landlord I encountered imported Norwegians to train his tenants in fishing techniques/seine boat use.

What happened in each house before and after the death of a landlord depended on him, whether resident or absent, and if the latter the role/power of the agent. Good landlords looked after their staff, regarding them as part of an extended family. That relationship started to break down at times of agrarian dissent, where loyalties were questioned. Published memoirs often show the closeness of the relationship. In one case I know of a groom/valet had at times to ‘borrow’ and resort to pawning a family dinner service to obtain his half-yearly salary. He stayed with his boss until his own death as a very old man. Some landlords showed their views by indicating their preferences in adverts e.g.a late 19thC advert in the Irish Times’, “Wanted, an experienced stableboy, light weight, able to ride and drive, live in, all found. Apply with copies of discharges stating age, weight, religion and wages expected.” There is no doubt than any number of qualified young stableboys was available in that area, so the landlord was looking for a coreligionist.

It appears common for the deceased ‘master’s’ clothing to be distributed to servant, and I’ve encountered some monetary bequests but have not made a study of it to comment authoritively.

The ratio of servants to family members was high, and was higher in Ireland than in England, because wages in Ireland were about one third lower. It was normal in the Big House to have an average of four servants per family member. In 1905, for live-in staff, the annual wages of a cook amounted to about £40 or about 15,000 euro in today’s values. A kitchen maid got about half that, and a junior or scullery maid received the equivalent of 2,000 euro a year in today’s values. Although they were provided with food and lodging, all had to pay for their own uniforms some of which were changed a couple of times a day (e.g. maids had morning & afternoon uniforms).

The first job of a servant was to learn the different ringtones of the bells – each room had a bell to summon a servant and it was important to know which room to go to. Here’s one example:



Kitchen hall by Pedro Eibar, on Flickr

jonniebgood1

From an exhibition by the NLI a few years ago we can see some indication of how it was:

A motor car at Clonbrock estate in Ahascragh, Co Galway in 1904.


Two of Lord Clonbrocks labourers in 1836

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/how-the-otter-half-lived-in-irelands-big-houses-2311970.html?start=2
I doubt the 1836 date in the second photo but the photo is interesting.



http://www.museum.ie/en/exhibition/power-and-privilege.aspx

pedroeibar1

GB Shaw - despite an Ascendancy wife - was typically acerbic on the Big House people “...a forlorn set of Protestant merchants in a Catholic country, led by a petty plutocracy of stockbrokers, doctors and land agents, and camouflaged by that section of the landed gentry who ...play at being court and aristocracy.”

I’m not sure if the following is also from him - “One of the absurdities of Irish life that the ladies of the house should enjoy themselves doing the gardener’s work for him”

Balmed Out

http://www.collinspress.ie/irish-country-houses.html

New book - Irish country houses a chronicle of change ye might be interested in

pedroeibar1

Balmed Out wrote: »

http://www.collinspress.ie/irish-country-houses.html

New book - Irish country houses a chronicle of change ye might be interested in

Thanks, know of it, Hicks' book, got very good reviews, it is on my birthday present list

DavidHabsburg

I have done some work on the 'Big House' in Ireland and Terence Dooley is the main man to read for information, particularly The Decline of the Big House in Ireland.

Jacqueline Genet's The Big House: Reality and Representation is also worth a look.

There are plenty of Irish novels concerning the 'Big House' that will also give some insight, albeit fictional, into the life of servants etc.

telekon

I purchased 'Voices from Great Houses of Cork and Kerry' by Jane O'Hea O'Keeffe today. It is from the viewpoint of not only the current inhabitants, but the descendants of the gentry that lived in the big houses of Counties Cork and Kerry and the stories that have been passed down through the years from generation to generation.

I'm really looking forward to reading it. I find this type of Irish social history fascinating.

pedroeibar1

Amazon have it on 'pre-order' as it has not yet been published. Kennys - often cheaper! - have no mention of it yet. Sounds interesting, RTE 1 has an interview here

Let us know when it arrives and if it is worth it.

InTheTrees

My dad grew up in such a house (Co.tipp) but economically by the 1960's it was impossible to continue so the place was sold.

He grew up with the whole huntin', fishin', shootin' life, dressing for dinner, servants all over the place, etc etc.

He would still send cash every Christmas to all the surviving ex-employees, right up to when he died in the 90's.

telekon

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Amazon have it on 'pre-order' as it has not yet been published. Kennys - often cheaper! - have no mention of it yet. Sounds interesting, RTE 1 has an interview here

Let us know when it arrives and if it is worth it.

That's how I heard about it.

I ordered it online from Irish books direct (along with 'Blasphemers and Blackguards - The Irish Hellfire Clubs', which arrived today and I am enjoying so far) and it is still at the publishers so won't be getting it for a week or so, but I will indeed let ye all know the lowdown when I get it.

GRMA

Interesting thread with some fascinating insight into the life of debauched villainy lived in the "big houses".

E45

I know someone who works in the local "big house". He rears bird's for the shooting season. The current Lord and Lady employ a good number of locals in both the house and estate, however, I know some of the workers are anxious about job security in the future whenever the current elderly Lord passes on, as his son lives mainly in Britain & may not continue with the shooting parties, etc.

The house and estate have been in the same family for hundreds of years, which is fairly impressive today and it's still a working house and estate and is not open to the public, except for several day's through out the year to comply with some "tax break", afaik, (I'm open to correction on this).

k22ritz

A new programme starts on TV3 tonight at 9pm called The Big House. Its from the perspective of the servants and made by Big Mountain who also made The Tenements.

InTheTrees

E45 wrote: »

as his son lives mainly in Britain & may not continue with the shooting parties,

Too bad.

That even the 2nd or 3rd generation after independence still leaves is sad.

pedroeibar1

Not a great programme. Pity that they used an idiot actor as a presenter, his ego intruded. Too repetitive - possibly because they hope to flog it to the yanks. Some real howlers, so it makes one wonder who were the technical advisors. (‘...and they will have to organize a hunt’ showing a guy with a shotgun). It’s a SHOOT, a hunt is what is done on horseback, unless you are a redneck American. And no gentleman who came to a Shoot with a loader would use a boxlock like the shotgun illustrated in the clip; in that era he would have used a pair of sidelocks which is why he would have had a loader. Also lots of small errors, e.g. plucking a pheasant (badly) in the kitchen would never have happened. Small things, unshaven servants, hair sticking out of caps, etc., general untidy appearance, no senior servant would ever allow juniors to appear like that. All taken together add up to amateurism. If they want to play at being Downton fine, but if they want to try to replicate history (as they claim) it is inexcusable.

I hope they have more of the two young lads (boot boys?) and the woman who worked in Fota. She was the only one who knew what she was talking about, the only one to mention the ‘green baize door’ which went over the heads of the producers. Ferriter was simply acerbic, I would hope for better things from him.

k22ritz

Of course they are amateurs...it would take years and generations to instill the level of professionalism and reverance that their ancestors had. The pheasant plucking didn't happen in the kitchen, it was downstairs near the yard.

pedroeibar1

k22ritz wrote: »

Of course they are amateurs...it would take years and generations to instill the level of professionalism and reverance that their ancestors had. The pheasant plucking didn't happen in the kitchen, it was downstairs near the yard.

I've no argument with the participants, I'm not expecting them to know the difference (or deference!); but if the program is holding out to be 'history' the technical people should have been pointing out stuff like that to them and it would also make for a better and more accurate understanding of the authority under which servants had to live. The Fota lady (former lady's maid?) would have put them right in minutes.

Even in restaurants today most waiting staff have no idea of how to serve properly and neither do the diners know how to be served (or behave).

k22ritz

I think last night was a more an introduction to the servants...things will probably get more real next week..hopefully.

pedroeibar1

k22ritz wrote: »

I think last night was a more an introduction to the servants...things will probably get more real next week..hopefully.

No they did not!
Anyone watch the Big House program on Mon night? I changed over from an interesting ‘Operation Crossbow’ on the Beeb and regret I did not change back. What sort of editorial/production standards does the BAI have to fund dross like this? The program flips between Carton/Strokestown and other houses as readily as it flops between eighteenth and nineteenth centuries. Sweeping statement are made, like ‘there were more than 6,000 Big Houses built in Ireland many of which were burned down’ – in reality there were just a few hundred that merited the name ‘Big House’ – the others were slightly oversize houses with big land. A big deal - shock/horror - in the next program is a cook with a kitchen staff who has to prepare dinner for 20!

A woman from the NAI stated that ‘being a servant was regarded as a shameful thing’ – although everything I have read indicates that a job in the Big House was something most locals desired, usually was not open to them and would have been delighted with if obtained. Am I wrong on this?

I'll not comment on the contributions of the idiot poncing about in the fake tartan jacket!

Diarmuid Ferriter is back in for all of 10 seconds with a trite remark that ‘the Big House is a symbol of colonialism’ – surely he could have been used in a more worthwhile fashion? Anyway, what does he mean by colonial? It is a stupid comment unless it is put in proper context. The Duke of Leinster’s family had been here since the Normans, as were the Butlers of Ormonde, the de la Poers and the Burkes/de Burghs. Most of the others were Elizabethan planters (e.g. the Blennerhassets, Hydes, etc) or Irish - Lord Dunraven’s family are O’Quin, Lord Inchiquin is O’Brien, descended from Brian, the High King, Lord Castletown is a MacGiollapatrick. The same ‘colonial’ remark could be directed at most of the titled families in England, apart from those who bought theirs with ‘trade’ money. Even the British Royal family (and the Hannovers before it) is more ‘colonial’ in origin than the few Cromwellian ascendancy families in Ireland. When does a family stop being ‘colonial’?

k22ritz

http://www.sligoheritage.com/heritage.htm I found an interesting piece about life in Lissadell House in the heritage section.Nice reading, hope you enjoy.

pedroeibar1

k22ritz wrote: »

http://www.sligoheritage.com/heritage.htm I found an interesting piece about life in Lissadell House in the heritage section.Nice reading, hope you enjoy.

Thanks, but this thread's opening post by Jbg (Mod) links to and quotes extensively from that site. The site is interesting but contains several errors of fact. Extolling the virtues of the Folklore Commission is worthwhile (it did great work), but it should be remembered that it is folklore, not always factual history. For example, they repeat the old canard about Lord Leitrim ‘destroying’ the reputation of local girls. Folklore says the 72 year old was shot by the brother of such a girl, but it is known that the murder was prompted by his history of evictions and a recent row over a local school.

It’s going off topic, but I agree that Leitrim (3rd Earl) as a landlord was deservedly hated; however, he was equally despised by his Ascendancy colleagues and fought with everyone from the Viceroy to the local police – Maria de la Touche wrote that she was not surprised at his murder, others wrote that he was the cause of giving landlords a bad name. His murder has been suggested as one of the catalysts in the creation of the Land League.

pedroeibar1

I sat through it again tonight – because of the Shoot.

There were far too many false notes. Why do the producers bother with having quality experts when they got so much else wrong? Dooley’s contributions deserve much more depth/time. Did Ferriter bill by the word? I don’t know the guy, but he spat out every word; is he normally that belligerent? The food dishes were centuries apart, the hopping between eras and locations was just as bad. Mr. Ponce talks about the boom in building works in post Famine era Ireland – against a camera shot/backdrop of Adare Manor which was completed by the mid 1830s. He also almost did the by now obligatory ‘WDYTYA’ teardrop on the emigration topic.

No Big House would serve anything but port from a ships decanter, which in this program was used for everything from whiskey to wine. And it was cruel not to give the likeable PJ some basic training on waiting at table before the filming began– it seems almost deliberate that he tries to pour from the left. Was that shot manufactured? In any event serving is not a butler’s job when there are footmen.

At least they got that 'Shoot' word right, having previously referred to it as a ‘hunt’, but most of the rest was incorrect. Gentlemen with firearms are not ‘shooters’, they are called ‘Guns’. Again we seemed to exist in a special TV3 media-driven timewarp, sashaying back and forth through the 18th, 19th and early 20th centuries. Driven shooting in Ireland did not start until at least the late 1860’s, when the guns were blackpowder hammerguns (and there are enough BP enthusiasts out there willing to do a re-enactment which also would have been much more photogenic) the over/under gun the camera focussed on is a style that was not much seen until the 1920’s – the other guns at least were designed in the late 1800’s. The Guns are spread out – the Line - not bunched together. The pretend shooting was badly acted and false. It was (and still is) normal to have the shooting party’s lunch in a lodge or specially decorated ‘outdoor’ room, so no big deal would have been made of it by the staff.

A marvellous book - well researched and historically accurate - on Shooting parties, big house shoots and the shooting Ascendancy families in Ireland is the recently published ‘Land, Lust and Gunsmoke’ by Peter Bacon (yes, that Peter Bacon). Though, like historical accuracy or professionalism in ‘The Big House’, don’t look too hard for much ‘Lust’ in it.

AI

For what it's worth I think the production company are doing what they can with a pretty small budget
I met them for a bit of filming and an interview at Gortnamona House/Mount Pleasant which I think is on next week
There was just one camera man, one producer and Mr Murray
They were not well prepared for the weather or the muddy field - I leant the camera man my umbrella and Murray my wellie boots!
All filming was done from their script so I did not get a chance to say anything interesting

pedroeibar1

Thanks for the interesting insight, but it rather confirms my impression of amateurism. No wellies or umbrella when filming at a ruin in the Irish countryside! I know it is in the can but I hate seeing something being done very badly when a little attention would have improved it. It does not strain a budget to avoid basic errors on small things but let them slip through and they cast doubt on the credibility of bigger things, thus detracting from the entire programme.
Love and enjoy your own work BTW.:)

pedroeibar1

x