Northern Student wanting to go to King's Inns

GPM

Hello all,

I am third year law student in Queen's University Belfast and I want to become a Barrister in the south. I had been accepted to UCD for undergrad however family issues meant that I went to Belfast instead as it was closer to home. This situation has now changed and I want to make a move down to Dublin permanently...now with the preamble over

I will be doing a preparatory course and begin my revision/work for the exam at the start of June. Will I be at a significant disadvantage not having studied the core 5 subjects for the entrance exam from the ROI perspective prior to this? In Land law and Criminal law we touched on various bits of common law as asides but nothing substantive as they're different jurisdictions. Would there be any nasty surprises that I would need to be aware of? I can study law, and the law is the law, and I can barely remember much from other modules.

Also, is there a possibility you could complete the course successfully and not have a master?

Any insights or words of wisdom are very welcome!

Procrastastudy

GPM wrote: »

Hello all,

I am third year law student in Queen's University Belfast and I want to become a Barrister in the south. I had been accepted to UCD for undergrad however family issues meant that I went to Belfast instead as it was closer to home. This situation has now changed and I want to make a move down to Dublin permanently...now with the preamble over

I will be doing a preparatory course and begin my revision/work for the exam at the start of June. Will I be at a significant disadvantage not having studied the core 5 subjects for the entrance exam from the ROI perspective prior to this? In Land law and Criminal law we touched on various bits of common law as asides but nothing substantive as they're different jurisdictions. Would there be any nasty surprises that I would need to be aware of? I can study law, and the law is the law, and I can barely remember much from other modules.

Also, is there a possibility you could complete the course successfully and not have a master?

Any insights or words of wisdom are very welcome!

Deleted - I misunderstood the OP.

A master is only when you have completed your BL and start your deviling.

Here is a good resource. Click approved degree for more info.

Here is the schedule inc the Info for Queens Students.

GPM

Aye it is, I will have to complete and pass some piece of assessed work on Irish Land law in and around February, it's specifically on the law of succession.

As regards the master what I mean is, is it like the English system of trying to obtain a pupillage or more like in Northern Ireland where you will pretty much get into it via networking on your year on the course?

Procrastastudy

GPM wrote: »

Aye it is, I will have to complete and pass some piece of assessed work on Irish Land law in and around February, it's specifically on the law of succession.

As regards the master what I mean is, is it like the English system of trying to obtain a pupillage or more like in Northern Ireland where you will pretty much get into it via networking on your year on the course?

Some people get them through contacts - some just seem to grab the list and cold call until they get one. I'm not at that stage so I can't really comment with any authority - I know I'm going to try and get mine though contacts as I would like to look at a specific area.

As for preping fro the exams from an ROI perspective get the Griffith or Independent manuals - you should fly through them - they are essentially what you need to pass - or so I'm told.

GPM

Cheers, I was leaning towards Griffith for the prep course is there one that sort of stands out? Yeah from looking through the pages here they seem to be a good buy. Still a good while off yet but can't hurt making some plans now.

Procrastastudy

OP might I ask you a question? I've been told the situation in the North is no where near as dire as it is here for Barristers (e.g. years of work before you even make minimum wage). In fact I've heard one suggestion that it's actually quite lucrative to be a Barrister in Northern Ireland. Any thoughts on it yourself?

Procrastastudy

GPM wrote: »

Cheers, I was leaning towards Griffith for the prep course is there one that sort of stands out? Yeah from looking through the pages here they seem to be a good buy. Still a good while off yet but can't hurt making some plans now.

I'm at GCD as an undergrad so just to declare that so I don't get stepped on for any rules breach! The professional law school is a different entity anyway...

The prep courses are offered by GCD, Indo and City colleges. I've heard the thing to do is cherry pick based on the lecturers giving the courses. Again this is merely what I've been told. The manuals can be got (albeit in a grey market kind of way) from adverts.ie - I got my 2011 ones for €150 ish.

GPM

Well first of all I didn't realise bar work in the South was bleak so take this for what it's worth. From what I would see Northern Ireland is a special case because of the troubles. Basically everything and anything that could be litigated was, and from what I know (second hand info only here) it provided a decent stream of steady work, bread and butter legal aid work. So you could say that there is still a little bit of a hangover from that.

Recently the PPS in Northern Ireland made public what Barristers were taking home from Legal aid (which was sizeable for some, but slightly misleading as some of those payments represented cases that went on for a number of years), from that you would say times are good. However, since Justice became a devolved power moves have been made to trim the fat so to speak, if you look at moves by David Ford there has been slashing of the legal aid budget. Which is worrying a great many people

For more senior barristers fair enough I would say lucrative, but is that any different from any other jurisdiction? Two of my mates are junior barristers just called in this last 2 years, and to be honest they are just making ends meet. So grass may just look greener over here...whereas those of my mates who are trainee solicitors are minted in comparison. I think until you establish a decent practice and a reputation as a competent advocate all bets are off.

That's just my two cents though

Procrastastudy

Much obliged for that I return the favour! The info I have is just from the odd pub conversation and chatting to lecturers. The rate of people dropping out once they have been called to the Bar is more than half from what I've been told. Deviling, which is unpaid is one or in many cases two years. From what I can gather a some masters will pay your Law Library fee for a year, but again this is just what I've heard. I'm sure there is a better discussion to be found though a good search of the forum.

I've heard it takes between 3 - 5 years to be drawing something like the minimum wage, obviously some do better that others. Hopefully someone might give you a better idea of what it's like, in reality, working in ROI as a Barrister - the scenario described is what I'm preparing myself for.

NoQuarter

Procrastastudy wrote: »

. From what I can gather a 'good' master will pay your Law Library fee for a year, but again this is just what I've heard.

Complete nonsense. Judging a master on whether they pay your fees or not is a ridiculous way to choose one.

johnnyskeleton

NoQuarter wrote: »

Procrastastudy wrote: »

. From what I can gather a 'good' master will pay your Law Library fee for a year, but again this is just what I've heard.

Complete nonsense. Judging a master on whether they pay your fees or not is a ridiculous way to choose one.

I suppose the logic is that if they're sound about that they will be sound about other things, whereas if they're a jerk about fees...

I thought it was supposed to be mandatory for the fees to be paid?

NoQuarter

Look, if you base the beginning year of your career and a year that is fundamental to get right on whether your mentor is going to pay 2800 for you or not you are MAD. It has no bearing whatsoever on how good they are etc etc.

Hopefully nobody will spread that nonesense.

There was a mandate that went around about paying devils fees apparently but it was rejected from what I gathered.

Procrastastudy

NoQuarter wrote: »

Look, if you base the beginning year of your career and a year that is fundamental to get right on whether your mentor is going to pay 2800 for you or not you are MAD. It has no bearing whatsoever on how good they are etc etc.

Hopefully nobody will spread that nonesense.

There was a mandate that went around about paying devils fees apparently but it was rejected from what I gathered.

There was no nonsense being spread - it was a lack of clarity on my part and a misinterpretation on yours. I have fixed it just in case it is picked up incorrectly by anyone else.

GPM

In relation to the North/South thing Procrastastudy I'm not kidding myself that it's going to be a handy career, especially at the start. My mentality going into it is that if your devoted, competent, intelligent and driven you will get there.

As far as the fees for the library, I would rather have someone who wouldn't pay them but was successful enough to let me get a good bit of work rather than someone who would pay them, but do nothing career wise.

NoQuarter

GPM wrote: »

In relation to the North/South thing Procrastastudy I'm not kidding myself that it's going to be a handy career, especially at the start. My mentality going into it is that if your devoted, competent, intelligent and driven you will get there.

As far as the fees for the library, I would rather have someone who wouldn't pay them but was successful enough to let me get a good bit of work rather than someone who would pay them, but do nothing career wise.

Absolutely.

The only thing I would say about your first sentence is everyone at the bar is intelligent (well, in a sense), competent and devoted and driven enough to get there which is not easy in itself as im sure you are learning yet a lot do fail. I cant tell you why yet and hopefully I never will be able to tell you why.

In relation to your OP, if you can learn the law, just buy the manuals and learn them cover to cover and you will pass the entrance exams. No need for a prep course if you dont think you need one.

Procrastastudy

GPM wrote: »

In relation to the North/South thing Procrastastudy I'm not kidding myself that it's going to be a handy career, especially at the start. My mentality going into it is that if your devoted, competent, intelligent and driven you will get there.

As far as the fees for the library, I would rather have someone who wouldn't pay them but was successful enough to let me get a good bit of work rather than someone who would pay them, but do nothing career wise.

Please don't think I'm trying to put you off in anyway; I couldn't even if I wanted to as I have no real idea of what I'm talking about. Just trying to share in the spirit of being nice! Best of luck OP if you would like to talk to someone who does have first hand experience of both fire me a PM and I'll ask someone to e-mail you. That said there are plenty of very well informed posters here.

johnnyskeleton

NoQuarter wrote: »

Look, if you base the beginning year of your career and a year that is fundamental to get right on whether your mentor is going to pay 2800 for you or not you are MAD. It has no bearing whatsoever on how good they are etc etc.

Hopefully nobody will spread that nonesense.

Of itself it's probably not the most important factor, but it also shows a level of generosity as opposed to perhaps a certain tightness. A master paying the fees for their devil implies that they might also be more inclined to help that devil make a career out of it, while someone who doesn't isn't showing the same inclination. Does that make sense? Put another way, it's no worse than any other arbitrary basis to select a master.

NoQuarter

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

Of itself it's probably not the most important factor, but it also shows a level of generosity as opposed to perhaps a certain tightness. A master paying the fees for their devil implies that they might also be more inclined to help that devil make a career out of it, while someone who doesn't isn't showing the same inclination. Does that make sense? Put another way, it's no worse than any other arbitrary basis to select a master.

I'm afraid I disagree on the point. Dont get me wrong, if you are one of the lucky ones, its fantastic, and it helps a huuuuge amount. But in my humble opinion, its not about that, the fees, paid or not, are forgotten about after week 1 and then its down to work work work and whether your master is generous with money or not, I think, has no bearing on how much work you will have to do for them.

I'm sure others have their own opinion though.

I suppose what im trying to say is that, on a rating scale, if master 1 was a 7/10 and paid fees and master 2 was an 8/10 and didnt, I would go for master 2.

GPM

NoQuarter wrote: »

Absolutely.

The only thing I would say about your first sentence is everyone at the bar is intelligent (well, in a sense), competent and devoted and driven enough to get there which is not easy in itself as im sure you are learning yet a lot do fail. I cant tell you why yet and hopefully I never will be able to tell you why.

In relation to your OP, if you can learn the law, just buy the manuals and learn them cover to cover and you will pass the entrance exams. No need for a prep course if you dont think you need one.

Aye I know there is that something that will lead people to bow out, most people who go for it are talented enough. But hey, the things you need to tell yourself you know :rolleyes: I'll definitely look into these manuals when I get a chance. I will probably go ahead with the prep course just to go in and do the tests confidently. Just because more of the intensity of the exams over the week more than anything. The thing is I don't want to throw away money on a crappy course.

Procrastastudy, oh no don't worry about that didn't take it that way at all, may follow up on that offer.

johnnyskeleton

NoQuarter wrote: »

I suppose what im trying to say is that, on a rating scale, if master 1 was a 7/10 and paid fees and master 2 was an 8/10 and didnt, I would go for master 2.

I agree with you, but my point is that as it is very hard to know which master is the 7/10 and which is the 8/10 in advance, you would have to make an assessment based on the limited information opento you. I would assume that all other things being equal, paying the devils fees is an indication of a better master as it shows generosity and concern towards the devil. It also shows that the master can spare a few bob, indicating that they are probably very busy and also they they probably wouldn't mind cutting off a few cases for thr devil to do in his/her own right.

So given the limited information available in advance about masters (good barrister is not the same as good master so their reputation as a barrister alone is not enough to help you decide), the willingness of a master to help thr devil at the start is indicative of their willingness to help them into the future, surely?

NoQuarter

I would agree with that JS but I wouldnt limit it to it. I wouldnt say that if they wouldnt pay your fees, they will be useless in the future, nor do I think you were implying that. It's certainly not black and white, a case of hit and hope perhaps!

Milk & Honey

johnnyskeleton wrote: »

So given the limited information available in advance about masters (good barrister is not the same as good master so their reputation as a barrister alone is not enough to help you decide), the willingness of a master to help thr devil at the start is indicative of their willingness to help them into the future, surely?

I heard of a girl who had a very generous master. One problem was that a lot of the work was insurance company and state defence work. Nothing for the devil in terms of future work. The same person then got a second year master who had a much lower income but had numerous requests for District court appearance from solicitors and she picked up more in the way contacts and income in her second year.