Clubs Paying The Price

Rasp

I'm a member of an UBL club, hugely in debt with clubhouse falling down.
Members who actually pay their membership declining.
First team players in shock with very mention of subs.
First team players in therapy if asked to contribute to their physio bills.
Majority of U21's play for two years and disappear
Mini rugby section is a creche for parents who could not care less about the club itself and some think club is luckly to have the yummy mummies and dotting dads swing in on alternate weekends.
Hassle for a womens section as IRFU have put pressure on clubs for equality reasons I assume with money from some quango no doubt, not enough rugby playing women around Dublin, therefore resources wasted to get a non runner running - it is not a game for women. TAG is.
The junior section is getting smaller each season.
Alickadoos getting older and tired of handing out money.
Average gate 40 souls and 2.5 dogs to a home UBL match and perhaps 100 if playing another Dublin club.
We still give money to players and salesmen like coaches/rugby directors with great knowledge of the rugby sound bites.
IRFU regard clubs as a nuisance.
Are the clubs mad?
Newspapers love to write about Airtricity clubs going to the wall, I reckon a wave of UBL clubs to follow suit. Why are the clubs spending themselves into oblivion?

ColmH81

Rasp wrote: »

I'm a member of an UBL club, hugely in debt with clubhouse falling down.
Members who actually pay their membership declining.
First team players in shock with very mention of subs.
First team players in therapy if asked to contribute to their physio bills.
Majority of U21's play for two years and disappear
Mini rugby section is a creche for parents who could not care less about the club itself and some think club is luckly to have the yummy mummies and dotting dads swing in on alternate weekends.
Hassle for a womens section as IRFU have put pressure on clubs for equality reasons I assume with money from some quango no doubt, not enough rugby playing women around Dublin, therefore resources wasted to get a non runner running - it is not a game for women. TAG is.
The junior section is getting smaller each season.
Alickadoos getting older and tired of handing out money.
Average gate 40 souls and 2.5 dogs to a home UBL match and perhaps 100 if playing another Dublin club.
We still give money to players and salesmen like coaches/rugby directors with great knowledge of the rugby sound bites.
IRFU regard clubs as a nuisance.
Are the clubs mad?
Newspapers love to write about Airtricity clubs going to the wall, I reckon a wave of UBL clubs to follow suit. Why are the clubs spending themselves into oblivion?

I hate to hear that.. I know of one particular south Dublin club that has even had to, from what I've heard, scrap their j2 and 3 teams.. And possibly j1s.. It should be standard that all players, from the lowest team to highest team, pay their way.. It should be a privilege to play for your club....

Hersheys

Rasp wrote: »

I'm a member of an UBL club, hugely in debt with clubhouse falling down.
Members who actually pay their membership declining.
First team players in shock with very mention of subs.
First team players in therapy if asked to contribute to their physio bills.
Majority of U21's play for two years and disappear
Mini rugby section is a creche for parents who could not care less about the club itself and some think club is luckly to have the yummy mummies and dotting dads swing in on alternate weekends.
Hassle for a womens section as IRFU have put pressure on clubs for equality reasons I assume with money from some quango no doubt, not enough rugby playing women around Dublin, therefore resources wasted to get a non runner running - it is not a game for women. TAG is.
The junior section is getting smaller each season.
Alickadoos getting older and tired of handing out money.
Average gate 40 souls and 2.5 dogs to a home UBL match and perhaps 100 if playing another Dublin club.
We still give money to players and salesmen like coaches/rugby directors with great knowledge of the rugby sound bites.
IRFU regard clubs as a nuisance.
Are the clubs mad?
Newspapers love to write about Airtricity clubs going to the wall, I reckon a wave of UBL clubs to follow suit. Why are the clubs spending themselves into oblivion?

Sexist much? :rolleyes: but yes, there are almost too many women's teams for the amount of players.

It's an awful situation for some clubs right now, not just UBL clubs, right down to grassroots. In my club we have the same issue. Terrible to see.

Fishooks12

Sounds like you should look at the problems in your own club that are leading to a decline in numbers and attendance at matches before blaming the IRFU and for some reason, the media

Fishooks12

Rasp wrote: »

I'm a member of an UBL club, hugely in debt with clubhouse falling down.
Members who actually pay their membership declining.
First team players in shock with very mention of subs.
First team players in therapy if asked to contribute to their physio bills.
Majority of U21's play for two years and disappear
Mini rugby section is a creche for parents who could not care less about the club itself and some think club is luckly to have the yummy mummies and dotting dads swing in on alternate weekends.
Hassle for a womens section as IRFU have put pressure on clubs for equality reasons I assume with money from some quango no doubt, not enough rugby playing women around Dublin, therefore resources wasted to get a non runner running - it is not a game for women. TAG is.
The junior section is getting smaller each season.
Alickadoos getting older and tired of handing out money.
Average gate 40 souls and 2.5 dogs to a home UBL match and perhaps 100 if playing another Dublin club.
We still give money to players and salesmen like coaches/rugby directors with great knowledge of the rugby sound bites.
IRFU regard clubs as a nuisance.
Are the clubs mad?
Newspapers love to write about Airtricity clubs going to the wall, I reckon a wave of UBL clubs to follow suit. Why are the clubs spending themselves into oblivion?

Also, not a surprise that numbers are dwindling if people in the club share your prehistoric views on women

CatFromHue

Rasp wrote: »

We still give money to players and salesmen like coaches/rugby directors with great knowledge of the rugby sound bites.

As I mentioned in your other thread clubs have to realise the current rugby status where they're in third place.

Stopping paying money they can't afford is good advice to any organisation let alone one that is getting further and further away from the top end.

Also the mini section is very important as these could well be the players making up the playing roster for years to come. It's the kids that count not their parents.

bamboozle

club rugby is not what is was 10-15 years ago but there are still plenty of clubs with plenty of adult teams & thriving mini sections with the same parents coaching the teams through to u12, u14, u16.

Blackrock suffered the ignominy last season of having to scrap adult teams and i'd be surprised if their senior team escape relegation 2 seasons running, while rumours aplenty about a famous limerick club struggling also.

On the flip side there are plenty of teams in the UBL with decent match day and pre-match lunch support, with thriving bars which are focusing on hosting tag rugby in the summer to keep the bar ticking over and get new members and during the season try to have as much function room hire as possible.

Some clubs like Bruff, Connemara, Boyne, Skerries, Navan deserve a lot of credit for the proactive manner they are being run despite the recession led player drain.

there will be plenty of fringe provincial players on show this evening and tomorrow in UBL games, it would be great to see a few more coming through the gates to watch them.

In Clontarf tomorrow afternoon there will be plenty of stars of the future on show not least Tadhg Furlong

justsomebloke

Rasp wrote: »

it is not a game for women. TAG is.

Truthfully this statement epitomises the sterotype that has turned people off from joining a local club.

Gracelessly Tom

OP - you should look into certain facts before making broad statements.

IRFU offer a lot of financial support to clubs who develop womens rugby. Plus the other side of that is that by having womens teams, you increase your membership, therefore increasing your subs. Believe me, from experience the womens teams are one of, if not the best socialising teams in the club, they'll run fundraisers, spend money in the bar and get involved in running the club.

I was of a similar mindset to you when my club introduced a womens team some years ago. I have no problem holding up my hands now and saying I could not have been more wrong!

Why not get out there and recruit from the local area and schools, build a few teams, try scrape some membership numbers together and go from there instead of blaming the IRFU. Run social days and nights to encourage people back to the club.

My own club have done this over the past 10 years and playing and membership numbers are the highest they've been for many years. Club is still not financially doing amazingly but we're getting there. Less moaning more action please!

JustinDee

Rasp wrote: »

I'm a member of an UBL club, hugely in debt with clubhouse falling down.
Members who actually pay their membership declining.
First team players in shock with very mention of subs.
First team players in therapy if asked to contribute to their physio bills.
Majority of U21's play for two years and disappear
Mini rugby section is a creche for parents who could not care less about the club itself and some think club is luckly to have the yummy mummies and dotting dads swing in on alternate weekends.
Hassle for a womens section as IRFU have put pressure on clubs for equality reasons I assume with money from some quango no doubt, not enough rugby playing women around Dublin, therefore resources wasted to get a non runner running - it is not a game for women. TAG is.
The junior section is getting smaller each season.
Alickadoos getting older and tired of handing out money.
Average gate 40 souls and 2.5 dogs to a home UBL match and perhaps 100 if playing another Dublin club.
We still give money to players and salesmen like coaches/rugby directors with great knowledge of the rugby sound bites.
IRFU regard clubs as a nuisance.
Are the clubs mad?
Newspapers love to write about Airtricity clubs going to the wall, I reckon a wave of UBL clubs to follow suit. Why are the clubs spending themselves into oblivion?

Why not start with the last sentence of this post: "Spending themselves into oblivion". There are indeed some clubs who have spent and borrowed big with, alas, money being thrown at personnel rather than infrastructural investment. If a club wins their respective league, is this going to bring in new members or sponsors? Possibly but nowhere near the degree needed to ensure that it thrives.

Example: Club with two or three main playable and marked pitches. One has match-standard floodlighting. The other two do not or else have weak amber lighting. Training during the height of winter ends up taking place on the main pitch. At end of season, main pitch and likes are in poor shape from overruse. Spend to rejuvenate is massive. In the meantime, the club is in inherent debt to the banks to the tune of 200k-plus, has borrowed from the IRFU and has also spent big on coaching and player roster (of which more than 50% have since bolted back home or to other clubs).
Where would the spending have yielded better results?
The question a club should be asking each season is 'We win our league . . . then what?'.

The thing is that it is not too late to change, if experiencing hardships to existance. There are a number of clubs of varying degrees that I deal with who have pre-emptively planned on their best situation or have drawn a line and entered their next phase entailing pro-active practice.

One major hit on clubs over the years has been Ireland maturing with relation to drink/driving. Clubhouse bars have been knuckled with regards incomings in a major way compared to even the beginning of the last decade. Migration of players also an issue, particularly with the younger players. People move towns or cities for employment or out of the country altogether. This was experienced in a major way during the mid to late 80s also and is nothing new. Sponsorship money is comparatively harder to come by these days, from junior club to even international level (Ulster Bank's involvement with All-Ireland rugby is MOST appreciated, I think we can all agree, for example).

So clubs form committees to drum up new ways of keeping them ticking over. Despite what you write, the women's and girls' game is an area of growth and the timing is most definitely ripe given what is coming with regards to Rugby Sevens in 2016. This is why it is encouraged. Not some "quango". More (paying) memberships, a livelier clubhouse and a fresh approach to what the club should be selling as these new members' main social centre. Not to be scoffed at.

Minis rugby regardless of being a place to leave kids for the Sunday mornings still yields club members if not players to rugby playing schools. As the boom in minis is still relatively new, there will be another few years to wait before its true effects can be any way gauged.

Tag rugby programmes, be they just a local project, with IRFU or with private entities, contribute to the club during a time when the gates are more or less shut for two or three months. They yield referees giving it a whirl, players and members as well as show off club to potential sponsors as I have witnessed myself. My department showed one particular host club how to recruit tag teams back in 2007 and in the end, we plucked together over 70 tag teams. That's an average of 1,200 players (not including friends, supporters, non-players) through the gates of the club one night per week over 10 weeks in summer.

Trying to get the media to cover club rugby more prevalently bar an annual preview or out-of-season gripe is not so easy. Unfortunately, 'if it bleeds, it leads'. Having said that, coverage in newspapers for example, is not the be all and end all. Social Media can be just as effective, if not more. LinkedIn and Twitter are definite growers and will overtake Facebook. There are many clubs latching on to this now and I am positive that their reach will improve as a result.

Clubs are not regarded as a nuisance in the slightest. They form the union and the grass roots of the sport on the island. This is why there are initiatives at branch and union level to guide and provide for. Outside of that, its down to committees being reformed or formed and getting down to some hard yakka about it all as has been done in very active clubs.

Failing to undertake a drive will result in what I call the Rovers Syndrome which basically refers to fans not previously bothered to show up at games, showing up en bloc only to protest at the withdrawal of the directors who had had enough of declining attendances and memberships ie. all a bit too late.

Phew. That's me done.
I'm currently on holidays so I'll bid you adieu ...

Heroditas

Meanwhile the likes of Clondalkin and Stillorgan continue to expand and do rather well for themselves, along with, as has already been mentioned, Boyne, Navan etc.
Demographics are changing. I feel many of the older "established" clubs fail to see this and are still stuck in some form of time warp.

ormond lad

Rasp wrote: »

I'm a member of an UBL club, hugely in debt with clubhouse falling down.
Members who actually pay their membership declining.
First team players in shock with very mention of subs.
First team players in therapy if asked to contribute to their physio bills.
Majority of U21's play for two years and disappear
Mini rugby section is a creche for parents who could not care less about the club itself and some think club is luckly to have the yummy mummies and dotting dads swing in on alternate weekends.
Hassle for a womens section as IRFU have put pressure on clubs for equality reasons I assume with money from some quango no doubt, not enough rugby playing women around Dublin, therefore resources wasted to get a non runner running - it is not a game for women. TAG is.
The junior section is getting smaller each season.
Alickadoos getting older and tired of handing out money.
Average gate 40 souls and 2.5 dogs to a home UBL match and perhaps 100 if playing another Dublin club.
We still give money to players and salesmen like coaches/rugby directors with great knowledge of the rugby sound bites.
IRFU regard clubs as a nuisance.
Are the clubs mad?
Newspapers love to write about Airtricity clubs going to the wall, I reckon a wave of UBL clubs to follow suit. Why are the clubs spending themselves into oblivion?

Sexist much?:rolleyes: .
Some clubs are struggling but many are not.
Clubs have to recognise that they are down the pecking order and that they have to be innovative if they are to bring numbers back to watching their games
Some parents do just drop their kids into the ground and dont get involved but there is very simple things clubs can do to ensure parents get involved in the club. for example creating a rota that a parent or two each week must get involved in helping out at training/matchdays and fill water bottles/clean jerseys etc.
The game has developed from what it had been and the club game is not what it was in the mid-late 90s.
Just reinforcing points made by others like womens teams are often the team that has the most craic and does a lot of work in running the club, raising money etc.
Run special days and be innovative to get new members into the club and former club members back into the club

whysomoody

ColmH81 wrote: »

I hate to hear that.. I know of one particular south Dublin club that has even had to, from what I've heard, scrap their j2 and 3 teams.. And possibly j1s.. It should be standard that all players, from the lowest team to highest team, pay their way.. It should be a privilege to play for your club....

Nail on the head here, should be honour to play for UBL club not the other way around. Payments to players has certainly helped to foster this.
Shame really as the amateur ethos of rugby was a great tradition and a sport to be proud of, the best parts of the game today come from those traditions but we seem intent on letting them go for... one more win.

ColmH81

I captained our J4 team for 3 years and the tightness we had as a group was unreal.. But the club put the 1sts above every other team.. Paid their subs for them, paid for all the club gear for them(we hadn't had new kit in about 10years).. Half time snacks, beers after games etc.. If we were playing at home when the 1st were, then we were shipped out to the local soccer club next door to get changed, even though there was 4 changing rooms..

It set a bad example for younger players going to the 1st.. If the J1s had an injury, the 1st subs wouldn't drop down to help out.. It should be an privilege to play for any team in your local club..

cmdrpaddy

That all sounds a bit too familiar...

ColmH81

cmdrpaddy wrote: »

That all sounds a bit too familiar...

It's so annoying.. It also affects trying to get new players up....

whysomoody

ColmH81 wrote: »

I captained our J4 team for 3 years and the tightness we had as a group was unreal.. But the club put the 1sts above every other team.. Paid their subs for them, paid for all the club gear for them(we hadn't had new kit in about 10years).. Half time snacks, beers after games etc.. If we were playing at home when the 1st were, then we were shipped out to the local soccer club next door to get changed, even though there was 4 changing rooms..

It set a bad example for younger players going to the 1st.. If the J1s had an injury, the 1st subs wouldn't drop down to help out.. It should be an privilege to play for any team in your local club..

Good examples, Im sure you have heard of it in other clubs but it annoys me to hear of the firsts, the junior club and the 20's. It should be the club, everyone in playing where they can doing their bit - too much about me fein at the moment.
I've won decent level of trophies with my club, 20A league and the 20B cup, but some of the fondest memories I had are playing one J4 game which meant I had played for every team in the club and was regarded as a good achievement. Can't understand guys who just want to move around for the sake of it.

Luckycharm

Some very good points being made. I have been involved in club rugby mainly playing for nearly 20 years.
My first 10 years was with Probally the biggest Senior club in Leinster and when I played there the first team would have had a couple of thousand at the games and the internationals would have been playing on the first team. In my 1st season they fielded 9 senior teams up to J8. Each season they would possibly be competing in finals at every level - I know players who have 13/14 leinster medals they never stacked teams (still don't) they were just strong all the way through. Towards the end of my playing days there they struggled to put out a J4 team due to people moving away etc. When I was getting older there were very few my age left playing - I remember my last game I was 8 years older then any of team mates I was only 29!! The club then had lean period where it wasn't doing as well but to be fair has got through that and is now as strong as ever. It is really well run club and I am still involved with it today with the vets etc plus all my family heavily involved.

Then 9 years ago I joined a Junior club which barely had one and half teams. To be honest I had hardly ever heard of them and had never even played against them. The difference was stark there were no alikadoo's the players basically ran the club as captain you had to do everything, ring all the players to get a team out, open up changing rooms every training session, lock up afterwards, make sure kit got cleaned basically everything (thankfully has changed). It was brillant though, 2 rugby tours are organised every year (one in Ireland) one abroad - I never went on one rugby tour when at the senior club. Some days at the start there were only 6 people down training- nowadays they put out 3 teams each w/end with the Top team moving up a league in recent years. It does show though what can be done when People pull together and invest in their club. Players who join the club nearly all get some job so they really feel it is their club .

I have been down at another senior club in last couple of years and seen what happens when people have their own vested interests and players don't have any real feeling for their club - the club is a shambles and every year nearly all their under 20's leave.

I don't see how any club these days can afford to pay its players and if that is the only reason a player plays for you - it doesn't have a great future.
Also Minis rugby has been great for clubs bringing alot of old players back involved when otherwise they wouldn't be. Also good money earners for clubs.

shaungil

Interesting thread. Have just got back involved in a club as my are playing and am finding it very rewarding. Having a few years break has left me enthused but am in a club with a lot of enthusiastic people at all levels, including a few senior players who have decided to return to their home town club and give a bit back before they hang up their boots and there has been sucess recently which makes life a lot easier.
There are hundreds of small things that get people to engage with their club for minis is to get them to aspire to play for their first team so get players to "adopt" a team (go training with them once a month) have draws for mascots for home games and kids playing a short match at half time. Getting them to want to go to the club and bring their parents with them and suddenly you have new volunteers. This is easier in a community based club.
The key I think is stop a few key people doing everything. Share the workload so people don't burnout and others are more likely to help out. Then the structures get stronge,r more players appear, training improves and it's a virtuous circle.
However you can sit and complain and do nothing or you can go out and try a few small steps and hopefully over time it will improve. It might take time but start with the small steps it becomes manageable and then in a few years hopefully the results will come.
The IRFU can help a bit but not until you start putting the work in at the bottom.

Naomi00

Rasp wrote: »

I'm a member of an UBL club, hugely in debt with clubhouse falling down.
Members who actually pay their membership declining.
First team players in shock with very mention of subs.
First team players in therapy if asked to contribute to their physio bills.
Majority of U21's play for two years and disappear
Mini rugby section is a creche for parents who could not care less about the club itself and some think club is luckly to have the yummy mummies and dotting dads swing in on alternate weekends.
Hassle for a womens section as IRFU have put pressure on clubs for equality reasons I assume with money from some quango no doubt, not enough rugby playing women around Dublin, therefore resources wasted to get a non runner running - it is not a game for women. TAG is.
The junior section is getting smaller each season.
Alickadoos getting older and tired of handing out money.
Average gate 40 souls and 2.5 dogs to a home UBL match and perhaps 100 if playing another Dublin club.
We still give money to players and salesmen like coaches/rugby directors with great knowledge of the rugby sound bites.
IRFU regard clubs as a nuisance.
Are the clubs mad?
Newspapers love to write about Airtricity clubs going to the wall, I reckon a wave of UBL clubs to follow suit. Why are the clubs spending themselves into oblivion?

A lot of clubs don't have girls teams, which is ridiculous, they should be mandatory. How do you expect there to be enough women to play for a senior team if there's no girls team in your club in the first place? The IRFU gives grants for every team you have so you have no excuse really.

it is not a game for women. TAG is.

And this attitude is just pathetic really.

ColmH81

Naomi00 wrote: »

A lot of clubs don't have girls teams, which is ridiculous, they should be mandatory. How do you expect there to be enough women to play for a senior team if there's no girls team in your club in the first place? The IRFU gives grants for every team you have so you have no excuse really.



And this attitude is just pathetic really.

I would say they should be mandatory.. What if you actually can't find women interested? Should the club be punished for it? I do agree that having women's teams is a bonus, as previously said, they tend to be one of the most dedicated and loyal groups...

Naomi00

ColmH81 wrote: »

I would say they should be mandatory.. What if you actually can't find women interested? Should the club be punished for it? I do agree that having women's teams is a bonus, as previously said, they tend to be one of the most dedicated and loyal groups...

I was talking about girls teams. Before you set up a team do training sessions in the local secondary schools and then organise an open night at the club. It's not that difficult to get people to join. If clubs were letting girls join at the same age as the boys then by the time they're at senior level there should be no problem in getting players for a women's team.

ColmH81

Naomi00 wrote: »

I was talking about girls teams. Before you set up a team do training sessions in the local secondary schools and then organise an open night at the club. It's not that difficult to get people to join. If clubs were letting girls join at the same age as the boys then by the time they're at senior level there should be no problem in getting players for a women's team.

That's actually some good thinking... I don't see why girls shouldn't be involved in minis rugby(may well be the case in some clubs)

Hersheys

ColmH81 wrote: »

Naomi00 wrote: »

I was talking about girls teams. Before you set up a team do training sessions in the local secondary schools and then organise an open night at the club. It's not that difficult to get people to join. If clubs were letting girls join at the same age as the boys then by the time they're at senior level there should be no problem in getting players for a women's team.

That's actually some good thinking... I don't see why girls shouldn't be involved in minis rugby(may well be the case in some clubs)

Our club has 130 minis. 3 are girls.

We do have an underage ladies section though that feeds the adult team a few players every season.