Am I obliged to pay ESB bill of rented place if I haven't signed a contract with ESB?

DGM81

Hi folks,

I moved into an apartment on the 02 June 12 and have never recieved a ESB bill. I never was asked to change-over or to sign anything to change the account into my name.
I have now been told by the Letting Agent that they have recieved a bill and that it has to be paid, by me, or else the electricity will be cut-off. The bill is for over 300 Euro. It is addressed to the Letting Agent and states it is a bill for the address I am a tenant of. My name is mentioned nowhere on the bill. I tis also in arrears, but I am not even sure of the dates of the arrears and how much of it is "mine".
I had a look at the tenancy agreement and it says I am to pay all utilites from the commencement of the tenancy and so on, but surely only the utilities that I have agreed to and am contracted to pay?
Am I right in stating I am not the legal payee for this bill and so I have no reason to settle it?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Cheers.

Procrastastudy

DGM81 wrote: »

Hi folks,

I moved into an apartment on the 02 June 12 and have never recieved a ESB bill. I never was asked to change-over or to sign anything to change the account into my name.
I have now been told by the Letting Agent that they have recieved a bill and that it has to be paid, by me, or else the electricity will be cut-off. The bill is for over 300 Euro. It is addressed to the Letting Agent and states it is a bill for the address I am a tenant of. My name is mentioned nowhere on the bill. I tis also in arrears, but I am not even sure of the dates of the arrears and how much of it is "mine".
I had a look at the tenancy agreement and it says I am to pay all utilites from the commencement of the tenancy and so on, but surely only the utilities that I have agreed to and am contracted to pay?
Am I right in stating I am not the legal payee for this bill and so I have no reason to settle it?
Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Cheers.

Charter and it new stricter incarnation. Morally if you racked up some of the bill pay that portion. You should have phones up the utilities when you moved in.

aN.Droid

If you used the electricity then yes, you have to pay for it. Otherwise you stole that electricity.

You should of taken a meter reading when you moved in so you could know exactly how much you have used and can work out how much of the bill you owe.

DGM81

Agreed, the morality of it is debatable. That said the morality of the Letting Agent telling me the apartment was all things to all men and what a wonderful place to live it was, when in fact it is completely the contrary, is also questionable. Two wrongs make a right in this instance, in my mind anyway.
I also have absolutely no problem "stealing" utilities when utilities are being stolen from this Country and its people on a daily basis, especially from the most immoral corrupt state body on this island, the ESB.
I don't want to get bogged down on moral debates and what I "should of taken". I just want to know, from a legal stand-point, am I legally obliged to pay a bill for something that I am not contracted to and have never agreed to pay for with the supplier?
Furthermore, to whether I "stole" or not, click this link and see where we stand then:
http://tnsradio.ning.com/forum/topics/how-i-beat-the-esb

Thanks for responding!

smooch71

The full amount of the bill probably includes a €300 deposit that ESB charge you when activating a new account. The amount of electricity used is possibly a lot less than that.

They pay you back the deposit after period of time (don't know how long) or if you opt to pay by direct debit.

If you've had an ESB account in the past ring them and they'll remove the deposit.

I suspect the landlord gave them your details and they amended the account

Procrastastudy

DGM81 wrote: »

Agreed, the morality of it is debatable. That said the morality of the Letting Agent telling me the apartment was all things to all men and what a wonderful place to live it was, when in fact it is completely the contrary, is also questionable. Two wrongs make a right in this instance, in my mind anyway.
I also have absolutely no problem "stealing" utilities when utilities are being stolen from this Country and its people on a daily basis, especially from the most immoral corrupt state body on this island, the ESB.
I don't want to get bogged down on moral debates and what I "should of taken". I just want to know, from a legal stand-point, am I legally obliged to pay a bill for something that I am not contracted to and have never agreed to pay for with the supplier?
Furthermore, to whether I "stole" or not, click this link and see where we stand then:
http://tnsradio.ning.com/forum/topics/how-i-beat-the-esb

Thanks for responding!

Legal standpoints are exactly what you can't get here. Practical advice any one who has ever moved house before should know is available.

Write down meter readings phone utilities - don't expect agencies to do it they are useless at the best of times. Also write down the meter reading when you leave and phone them then too.

DGM81

No, the bill is broken up into these sections; Your last bill, Arrears brought forward and Charges for this Period. The date for the bill is from 07 July 12 to 10 Sept 12, meaning I don't know what the arrears are for and from what dates. I am pretty sure that as I did not sign an agreement/enter into a contract, I am no liable for this cost. Surely that is the legal standpoint, yes?
They (Landlord/Letting Agency) have not changed the account into my name as of yet. They told me to pay the bill and they would change the account details in the mean time. The bill is addressed to them. That would state that they are the account holders and therefore the liable party, yes? I was never given meter reading either. That is the duty of the Landlord/Agent to get these, as has been the case every time I moved into a new place anyway.

Procrastastudy

DGM81 wrote: »

No, the bill is broken up into these sections; Your last bill, Arrears brought forward and Charges for this Period. The date for the bill is from 07 July 12 to 10 Sept 12, meaning I don't know what the arrears are for and from what dates. I am pretty sure that as I did not sign an agreement/enter into a contract, I am no liable for this cost. Surely that is the legal standpoint, yes?
They (Landlord/Letting Agency) have not changed the account into my name as of yet. They told me to pay the bill and they would change the account details in the mean time. The bill is addressed to them. That would state that they are the account holders and therefore the liable party, yes? I was never given meter reading either. That is the duty of the Landlord/Agent to get these, as has been the case every time I moved into a new place anyway.

Have you read the charter? Phone ESB and explain the situation see what they say. As for your legal position even if I wasn't in fear of a Tom Young shaped ban no one here knows the terms of the letting agreement you signed.

Victor

You have responsibilities to the landlord to pay the bill, the account holder is responsible to the ESB.

Do you really want to be without electricity facing into the winter?

MariMel

the letting agent or the landlord should have set up the ESB in your name when you moved in. The ESB will accept confirmation of your tenancy as proof to put the bill in your name. I came across this issue last year when I found both the ESB and gas had been put in my name. I had thought I would have had to give my permission, but I didnt. Id no issue with the ESB as obviously if im using it then I should pay for it. Plus its good standard practice for the tenant to take a meter reading when you move into anywhere.

DGM81

Folks, I am obliged to pay all my bills as per my tenancy agreement, but that obligation extends only to companies/parties that there is an agreement in place with I would assume. I have not signed anything with the ESB or entered into any contract with them. I do not have an account with them. I have an agreement with the Landlord via my tenancy to pay all utility bills, but the bill that has been issued is a notice for the Letting Agency, not me. Legally this surely means they are the contracted party and therefore they are liable for all costs, yes? When the bill is issued in my name, post signing of an agreement of course (i.e. a contract) and the account is in my name, only then could I possibly be the liable party for costs, surely?
I am aware of the "but you used it" arguement here. I just want guidance as per the legal aspect of the situation. The law is morally bankrupt, so the lack of morals/ethics displayed towards a souless Corpoate giant have no place in this debate, in my opinion.

Cheers for the frank debate!

irishgirl19

why don't you take a meter reading tomorrow and call the esb and get it into your name.the ESB Will start charging you from tomorrow onwards in a new account in your name and then you could possibly make an arrangement with your letting agent about the arrears?

Cushie Butterfield

Unless the ESB can somehow tell you the exact usage since June 2nd it would probably be best to come to some sort of compromise with the Landlord/Letting Agency. I'd suggest that you divide the Charges For This Period Figure & divide it by half (this would be roughly the length of time since June 2nd, or you could work it out by the day). Whatever that figure is, add the Charges For This Period to it & offer to pay that amount. I'd be surprised if that method would meet with much arguement.

Edit: Just to add i'd check that bill to see if it's estimated. Check if there were any payments on it relating to the previous bill. Check it against the meter. Also ask for a copy of the previous bill & look to see if that's estimated & if there were any arrears carried forward.

DGM81

True, that is a very good option. Something I would look to do after I venture down this other avenue perhaps. I just think I am not legally obliged to pay this.
They have shafted me on numerous occasions throughout this short time frame and I see this as some sort of Karma for their actions. That said, Karma does indeed come back around, so maybe I should cut my losses!! Nah, Karma can't do anything either if I didn't sign a contract with it I'm thinking!!

Thanks for the response!

Procrastastudy

DGM81 wrote: »

I am aware of the "but you used it" arguement here. I just want guidance as per the legal aspect of the situation. The law is morally bankrupt, so the lack of morals/ethics displayed towards a souless Corpoate giant have no place in this debate, in my opinion.

Cheers for the frank debate!

What on earth are you talking about.

MagicSean

Just so we are clear here, you are asking if you have to pay for the electricity you used. Is this correct?

Ken.

DGM81 wrote: »

Agreed, the morality of it is debatable. That said the morality of the Letting Agent telling me the apartment was all things to all men and what a wonderful place to live it was, when in fact it is completely the contrary, is also questionable. Two wrongs make a right in this instance, in my mind anyway.
I also have absolutely no problem "stealing" utilities when utilities are being stolen from this Country and its people on a daily basis, especially from the most immoral corrupt state body on this island, the ESB.
I don't want to get bogged down on moral debates and what I "should of taken". I just want to know, from a legal stand-point, am I legally obliged to pay a bill for something that I am not contracted to and have never agreed to pay for with the supplier?
Furthermore, to whether I "stole" or not, click this link and see where we stand then:
http://tnsradio.ning.com/forum/topics/how-i-beat-the-esb

Thanks for responding!

The guy in that link is an idiot and i notice hasn't updated in over a year. Probably because ESB were in the right and cut his ass off.

Del2005

DGM81 wrote: »

Folks, I am obliged to pay all my bills as per my tenancy agreement, but that obligation extends only to companies/parties that there is an agreement in place with I would assume. I have not signed anything with the ESB or entered into any contract with them. I do not have an account with them. I have an agreement with the Landlord via my tenancy to pay all utility bills, but the bill that has been issued is a notice for the Letting Agency, not me. Legally this surely means they are the contracted party and therefore they are liable for all costs, yes? When the bill is issued in my name, post signing of an agreement of course (i.e. a contract) and the account is in my name, only then could I possibly be the liable party for costs, surely?
I am aware of the "but you used it" arguement here. I just want guidance as per the legal aspect of the situation.
!

You agree you need to pay all your bills as per contract, yet you say you never entered a contract for electricity. Why did you use it if you didn't enter a contract for it?

DGM81 wrote: »

The law is morally bankrupt, so the lack of morals/ethics displayed towards a souless Corpoate giant have no place in this debate, in my opinion.

The soulless corporate giant will simple ad the money you've not paid to everyone else's bills. It's like the people saying it's OK to walk away from mortgages as the government will cover it, the government who will cover them is the tax paying sap not the people in the Dáil.

DGM81 wrote: »

True, that is a very good option. Something I would look to do after I venture down this other avenue perhaps. I just think I am not legally obliged to pay this.
They have shafted me on numerous occasions throughout this short time frame and I see this as some sort of Karma for their actions. That said, Karma does indeed come back around, so maybe I should cut my losses!! Nah, Karma can't do anything either if I didn't sign a contract with it I'm thinking!!

Thanks for the response!

I think the karma that will hit you is that while the LL/agent may pay this bill, they have a contract you singed saying you'll pay for all utilities then they can add it to your rent or chase it up through the PRTB.

The fact that they've messed you around doesn't give you the right to mess around a totally different company because of your own mistake. You used it you should pay for it.

littlemac1980

DGM81 wrote: »

Agreed, the morality of it is debatable. That said the morality of the Letting Agent telling me the apartment was all things to all men and what a wonderful place to live it was, when in fact it is completely the contrary, is also questionable. Two wrongs make a right in this instance, in my mind anyway.
I also have absolutely no problem "stealing" utilities when utilities are being stolen from this Country and its people on a daily basis, especially from the most immoral corrupt state body on this island, the ESB.
I don't want to get bogged down on moral debates and what I "should of taken". I just want to know, from a legal stand-point, am I legally obliged to pay a bill for something that I am not contracted to and have never agreed to pay for with the supplier?
Furthermore, to whether I "stole" or not, click this link and see where we stand then:
http://tnsradio.ning.com/forum/topics/how-i-beat-the-esb

Thanks for responding!

There's a very recent thread here with a link to a Canadian Judgment that'll explain all you need to know about trying to use the "advice" from tnsradio to avoid certain legal obligations.

Its not too complicated a read, and although its a little bit long, you can skip the party names - they're apparently only a fiction, everything else is non-fiction.

If we were allowed to give legal advice here, I'd advise you to stock up on blankets.

irishgirl19

If its in your lease agreement,you can forget about getting your deposit back.

Madam_X

DGM81 wrote: »

I also have absolutely no problem "stealing" utilities when utilities are being stolen from this Country and its people on a daily basis

Fierce noble but most of those people are paying their bills and don't like freeloaders with ludicrous senses of entitlement. Just admit that's what you are instead of pretending to take a stand for others. What was that TMS guy's issue btw? I'm guessing he just didn't want to pay - no violation of him other than that. It's amusing the way a handful of people think they're better than everyone else and simply shouldn't have to pay for stuff.
No you're not liable for something if it's not in your name, but hopefully the agency will bill you for it - seeing as you DO owe it to them.

Might be no harm for you to get cut off and have to pay the reconnection fee and arrears though.

jimmycrackcorm

Your tenancy agreement states you have to pay all utilities from your starting renting. You've agreed to that. The only bit you can dispute is the correct figure.

Pat Mustard

OP

In many standard written residential leases/letting agreements, there is an obligation on the tenant to discharge the utility bills, such as the electricity bill.

Perhaps there is such a clause in your letting agreement.

You ask if you are obliged to fulfill an obligation to discharge an electricity bill, when you did not enter into a contract directly with the ESB.

But you could ask yourself a question:

Did you agree with your landlord to pay the electricity bill?

We can't answer that question for you, because we haven't seen your letting agreement and we are not allowed to give legal advice by virtue of the forum charter, but what do you think yourself?

housetypeb

As a landlord I can only tell you that the ESB and other utility companies can only demand money from the name on the bill,which is what you're asking.
I'v has tenants in the past who have run up utility bills, but I'm not liable for them as it's not in my name.
This is why ESB and others now demand deposits.
Some landlords (I'm not one them)keep the utilities in their own name and then show the bill to the tenant who then pays the amount owed,which IMHO is risky, in your case this seems to have been complicated by the fact that neither you or the agent took readings when you moved in.
It seems the agent may be to trying to get you to pay some part of the former tenants bill, or the void between tenancies-as the bill is his name and meter readings will not sync with the start/end of tenancies unless he calls in the reading,which he seems not to have done.
You can dispute the amount.

juan.kerr

Pay up and don't be a sponger. Or live in the dark.

Pat Mustard

housetypeb wrote: »

As a landlord I can only tell you that the ESB and other utility companies can only demand money from the name on the bill,which is what you're asking.

Even if the ESB is only allowed to go after his landlord (named on bill), that still leaves the question of the tenant's obligation to his landlord under the letting agreement.

housetypeb

The Mustard wrote: »

Even if the ESB is only allowed to go after his landlord (named on bill), that still leaves the question of the tenant's obligation to his landlord under the letting agreement.

I agree.
I was just clarifying that Esb can't chase him for a bill not in his name.

Pat Mustard

housetypeb wrote: »

I agree.
I was just clarifying that Esb can't chase him for a bill not in his name.

Fair enough.