Last Night's J2 Meeting

MeTV

Was anybody at the Leinster Branch's meeting about the Metro J2 League in Mary's last night? What came out of it?

cmdrpaddy

According to what I've heard...

The J2 and J3 teams (there are 16 J3 teams, split into two groups of 8, sec A & sec will now be combined and split into two leagues of 12 - top J3 teams will make up the numbers for the upper 12 along with the current J2 teams.

Within this group of 12, two groups of 6 will play each other once, with the top 3 in each group going into sec A, and the bottom 3 into sec B.

and according to what Gracelessly Tom heard...

Branch meeting last night and the J2 league is scraped, apparently they are splitting the J3 league and the J2 teams will drop into this league. Not sure how that effects clubs with J2 and J3 teams, can see it getting very messy.

So there's no longer distinct J2/J3 leagues.

It might solve some problems for this season but opens issues up at J4 and there could be some major problems in future seasons.

remwhite

Phase 1
24 teams in total will be split in to two leagues of 12 on a seeded basis. Each team in the league of 12 plays each other once.

Phase 2: The Super Sixes
The top three teams from each 12 go into a group of six to compete for the J2 league trophy. The next six ie. Teams that finished 4th-6th in their group go into a super six to compete for the J3 league. The next two groups of six will compete for two pennants. If Lansdowne, Marys, Tarf or Belvo J3s finish in the top 3 of the league of 12 (phase 1) they cannot be put in the same group as their 3rds team. Ie. Clubs with two teams will not be playing against each other. So the second phase will be four groups of super six competing for two trophies and two pennants.

Pool 1 (1st six teams): The J2 Trophy
Pool 2: (2nd six teams): The J3 Trophy
Pool 3: (3rd six teams): A pennant
Pool 4: (4th six teams): A pennant

I think the whole situation is a disgrace and shows a really poor attitude of trophies over sportsmanship. Too many teams want the easy way out.

cmdrpaddy

remwhite wrote: »

I think the whole situation is a disgrace and shows a really poor attitude of trophies over sportsmanship. Too many teams want the easy way out.

I agree in part. There's definitely teams that are playing below their level simply to win trophies (what real value is there in a J3 trophy if you're a J1 standard player?) but there's also teams that are simply very good due to the club having vastly superior playing numbers. If someone is at a club and there's already a strong J1/J2 squad many players would move down to the J3s ahead of leaving the club.

Some of the top end J2 teams are better than probably half the J1 league teams.

The biggest problem I see is that a change in any given division has the potential to seriously disrupt the competitiveness of divisions below it. Changes to J2/J3 could have a very destructive influence on J4 rugby if teams are forced to move down.

Overall I can't really blame the Branch as the situation is extremely complex and there's only one or two clubs that should really be taking any flak for the situation.

remwhite

cmdrpaddy wrote: »

I agree in part. There's definitely teams that are playing below their level simply to win trophies (what real value is there in a J3 trophy if you're a J1 standard player?) but there's also teams that are simply very good due to the club having vastly superior playing numbers. If someone is at a club and there's already a strong J1/J2 squad many players would move down to the J3s ahead of leaving the club.

Some of the top end J2 teams are better than probably half the J1 league teams.

The biggest problem I see is that a change in any given division has the potential to seriously disrupt the competitiveness of divisions below it. Changes to J2/J3 could have a very destructive influence on J4 rugby if teams are forced to move down.

Overall I can't really blame the Branch as the situation is extremely complex and there's only one or two clubs that should really be taking any flak for the situation.

I think that clubs aren't given credit for why they have vastly superior playing numbers. I don't buy the argument that your 1st team's league position has anything to do with numbers playing junior rugby. Blackrock were 1A last year and couldn't field a J1 or J2 team. To their credit, they fielded the best team they could at J3, not a team of bangers. Playing numbers are down to hard work, not where your firsts are.

A lot of these martyrs could take a lesson from Stillorgan a club with little or no facilities who are constantly publicly recruiting and consequently improving as a club.

Marys, Terenure, Wesley, Lansdowne, 'Rock, Seapoint, Clontarf and Greystones have all won trophies at J2 in the last 7 years I can't understand how so few of them are competitive now. Also, Greystones and Terenure both whitewashed the J4 and J5 leagues.

cmdrpaddy

remwhite wrote: »

I think that clubs aren't given credit for why they have vastly superior playing numbers. I don't buy the argument that your 1st team's league position has anything to do with numbers playing junior rugby. Blackrock were 1A last year and couldn't field a J1 or J2 team. To their credit, they fielded the best team they could at J3, not a team of bangers. Playing numbers are down to hard work, not where your firsts are.

A lot of these martyrs could take a lesson from Stillorgan a club with little or no facilities who are constantly publicly recruiting and consequently improving as a club.

Marys, Terenure, Wesley, Lansdowne, 'Rock, Seapoint, Clontarf and Greystones have all won trophies at J2 in the last 7 years I can't understand how so few of them are competitive now. Also, Greystones and Terenure both whitewashed the J4 and J5 leagues.

From what I understand Blackrock last year were in a position where teams were disbanded for reasons outside of rugby.

Mary's, Lansdowne, Clontarf and Wesley all competed in section A of the J2 league last year so they're very competitive. Greystones were 'warned' by the Branch about the teams they were fielding last season and the Terenure 'J5' team have been moved up to J4.

Basically I agree that some teams are gaming the system by fielding teams below their apparent level but there are some clubs that have little choice. I hear a lot of moaning about teams like Lansdowne or Belvo hammering other teams at J2 but those clubs simply have enough good players to legitimately field very good teams. I think there's also some teams that are possibly a bit too conceited to admit they shouldn't be playing J2 rugby...

Personally I feel that a pretty drastic overhaul from J1 down is required but I also think that any changes that are made will only be useful for a few seasons as clubs' circumstances change.

Gracelessly Tom

remwhite wrote: »

Marys, Terenure, Wesley, Lansdowne, 'Rock, Seapoint, Clontarf and Greystones have all won trophies at J2 in the last 7 years I can't understand how so few of them are competitive now. Also, Greystones and Terenure both whitewashed the J4 and J5 leagues.

Mary's are competitive from the 1st team all the way through to the J6's and that includes two J4 teams. We'd rather not be tarred with the same brush as clubs who blatantly load to win trophies.

MeTV

This had better not be true! The J2 league is falling apart so the solution is to screw about with the J3 league?! How does that make any sense?!

CYM have dropped down a level from J2, where they were hopelessly out of their depth (no offense intended) and now they're going to be told they're being thrown back in with the very teams they tried to get away from.

Section B of the J3 League has already started, are those results going to stand? What about the matches scheduled for this weekend - it's Wednesday now and no official word from the branch.

Does anybody know what sanctions, if any, were leveled against the 3 clubs that took it upon themselves to create this situation?

Legits

Gracelessly Tom wrote: »

Mary's are competitive from the 1st team all the way through to the J6's and that includes two J4 teams. We'd rather not be tarred with the same brush as clubs who blatantly load to win trophies.

Pretty sure he meant other teams that had won it and no longer compete. Marys and Lansdowne are the best current teams in J2 and are not loaded just very strong at the level. I have being playing against thme for 3 years now and its the same faces every year.

Legits

MeTV wrote: »

This had better not be true! The J2 league is falling apart so the solution is to screw about with the J3 league?! How does that make any sense?!

CYM have dropped down a level from J2, where they were hopelessly out of their depth (no offense intended) and now they're going to be told they're being thrown back in with the very teams they tried to get away from.

Section B of the J3 League has already started, are those results going to stand? What about the matches scheduled for this weekend - it's Wednesday now and no official word from the branch.

Does anybody know what sanctions, if any, were leveled against the 3 clubs that took it upon themselves to create this situation?

Sanctions againts the 3 clubs! To be fair they didnt have the players at that level much like CYM. Im sure CYM are much improved this season with Eric Miller there.
The fact is the J3 league has become so popular it is weakening the J2 league the best j3 teams can compete at j2 better than some of the J2 section b teams.

CYM will be in J3 section B with all J3 teams and results from last weekend are wiped.
Some of the top J3a teams will be in with the J2 teams.
Fixtures will be released later today.

MeTV

Legits wrote: »

To be fair they didnt have the players at that level ...

Then they shouldn't have entered the competition!

There were meetings held in UCD a few months back where this very issue of clubs not fulfilling fixtures or dropping out of leagues altogether was raised and it was stated that there would be fines/penalties at other levels for clubs doing so this season.

cmdrpaddy

MeTV wrote: »

Then they shouldn't have entered the competition!

There were meetings held in UCD a few months back where this very issue of clubs not fulfilling fixtures or dropping out of leagues altogether was raised and it was stated that there would be fines/penalties at other levels for clubs doing so this season.

Was that actually implemented in the revised rules for this season? I only remember it being mentioned as a possibility.

The J2 league is falling apart so the solution is to screw about with the J3 league?! How does that make any sense?!

It doesn't make much sense from the point of view of the J3 league but in reality it's a fairly minor change for most teams that allows the J2 league to survive. The top few J3 teams now play J2 teams while everything else stays pretty much the same (except that last weekend's results don't count).

Legits

It was handled badly by them as Remwhite says they should have invested more into their junior recruitment to ensure they have players. But whats done is done.

Personally I think the entire metro legue needs to be seeded into leagues of 12 teams with straight promotion relagation each season. Two teams at a level should play each other.

No reason I can think of why an A side shouldnt play their B if they are both good enough to be in the same league. (other than trophy hunting reasons).

Gracelessly Tom

Legits wrote: »

Pretty sure he meant other teams that had won it and no longer compete. Marys and Lansdowne are the best current teams in J2 and are not loaded just very strong at the level. I have being playing against thme for 3 years now and its the same faces every year.

Yep, I'd be confident that's what he meant, but I just wanted to clarify the situation for anyone not familiar with the junior metro set ups.

MeTV

Legits wrote: »

Personally I think the entire metro legue needs to be seeded into leagues of 12 teams with straight promotion relagation each season.

Definitely, I'm all for that as well. It's just a bit ridiculous that they've started down that route when one league has already started and there's only a few days to go until the others were supposed to start.

We (Wanderers) had a week off in the J3 League this week and now, without knowing when or where we're supposed to be playing, we have to scramble to put a team together when most everyone will have already made plans.

Gracelessly Tom

MeTV wrote: »

Definitely, I'm all for that as well. It's just a bit ridiculous that they've started down that route when one league has already started and there's only a few days to go until the others were supposed to start.

We (Wanderers) had a week off in the J3 League this week and now, without knowing when or where we're supposed to be playing, we have to scramble to put a team together when most everyone will have already made plans.

Another lesson in "how not to organise something" by the incompetent branch.

cmdrpaddy

While the Branch have made plenty of strange and stupid decisions what could they have done about three teams that had entered a league withdrawing the week it was supposed to start?

CC83

Feels like there's a few issues being mixed in here, although good to see people actually care about the leagues!

Nothing the Branch could do about 3 teams dropping out so late - reducing the J2 league to a bit of a farce, with a high probablility that more teams drop out during the season. The J2 league absolutely needs a Section A and B, as it's a league with huge deviation in playing standards and player base - how can clubs continue to field a J2 team when that team knows it will be walloped by the bigger club J2 sides everytime - I understand clubs have different membership numbers, but with Club Rugby in Ireland so beset by it's own issues (funding, losing players to emmigration, other sports etc) now is the time to do everything we can to help any club keep every member.

Personally, I think the Branch have come up with a reasonable solution - I would expect lower J2 teams and high J3 teams to be relatively similar competitively. Also, this should mean the J4/J5 leagues remain relatively untouched. It is a shame about the matches already played, but again, can't blame the branch for that - 3 clubs dropping out so suddenly is unacceptable. As a player in the current J2 league, I'm looking forward to it as ultimately it means more games, more mixing between clubs and hopefully stronger Junior player memberships for everyone.

Gracelessly Tom

As similar situation arose two seasons ago (or was it last season?) when a pile of J2 teams dropped out because they weren't going to win it and 4 teams were left competing. My point is that the branch have seen it happen before yet they put no plan in place for such a situation arising again, reactive as always, never proactive.

People saying that teams should drop down if they ain't good enough? That's crazy, sure then half the teams in every league would just drop down a level. What ever happened in playing for the pride of your club and your jersey, forget the score and show some bottle and play every game even if you lose them.

I remember not to long ago we had 12 or 13 showing up every week and we got thumped. Still played every game and never dropped out or down due to not winning. It made the occasional win so much better and it certainly makes having a big sqaud now so much more appreciated.

Sport is not about winning, people need to grow a set and realise that you won't always win everything and man up and take a few losses.


**Edit - This isn't a rant against anyone on here, just a rant in general at the situation.

It may also effect the J4 leagues as lads who previously played on Saturdays with the J2's may not (or may decide not to) be able to play on Fridays and Sundays and they'll drop down to J4 level. To say it won't effect the J4 league is a little naive.

cmdrpaddy

Gracelessly Tom wrote: »

As similar situation arose two seasons ago (or was it last season?) when a pile of J2 teams dropped out because they weren't going to win it

There's a difference between teams dropping out because they won't win the league and teams dropping out because they don't want 70+ points put on them every weekend, not that teams should drop out but one is far more understandable than the other.


I agree on the whole that the Branch needs to be far more proactive about league structures but I also feel that teams need to be far more realistic about what leagues they play in.


I think from the point of view of the branch the biggest problem is that the J4 and J5 leagues seem to be working out now and J2 has been in a bit of disarray for the last two seasons and making changes at J2 and J3 could undo most of the work that went in to making J4 a worthwhile league.

It's a complicated problem but hopefully not insurmountable.

Bort Ort

Legits wrote: »

It was handled badly by them as Remwhite says they should have invested more into their junior recruitment to ensure they have players. But whats done is done.

Personally I think the entire metro legue needs to be seeded into leagues of 12 teams with straight promotion relagation each season. Two teams at a level should play each other.

No reason I can think of why an A side shouldnt play their B if they are both good enough to be in the same league. (other than trophy hunting reasons).

Think this is probably the best idea rather than let teams select what level they want to play at themselves.

My missus plays Hockey and all the teams are in 11 or 12 divisions with the only restriction being you can only have 1 team from a club in the top division but multiples in any other.

Cup competitions are ran between div's 1 & 2, another cup for 3 &4, and so...

Two up two down every year and teams should find a suitable level quicker.

Can play leagues 1 & 2 on Sat, 3 & 4 on Sunday, and rest on Saturdays.

Seems worth considering for next season as J4 league is a bit of a joke now. Supposed to be low level rugby for people who can't train or are new to the game but have some very well drilled teams of experienced players training twice a week.

cmdrpaddy

Bort Ort wrote: »

Seems worth considering for next season as J4 league is a bit of a joke now. Supposed to be low level rugby for people who can't train or are new to the game but have some very well drilled teams of experienced players training twice a week.

I don't understand what's wrong with the J4 league

Section A is quite strong, close to J3 standard.

Section B/C have some teams close enough to section A standard.

Section D has teams that have previously been heavily beaten in higher sections or that can't compete consistently in higher sections and towards the bottom end is quite close to J5.

If people need a lower division to play in there's the J5 league.

Gary The Gamer

This is pissing me off. The league had already started, fixtures were released and we had a nice win. Now I have to play on Friday with two days notice. Are some of the bottom tier 3b teams going to end up playing top J2 teams in this latest round robin?

Guy:Incognito

Legits wrote: »

It was handled badly by them as Remwhite says they should have invested more into their junior recruitment to ensure they have players. But whats done is done.

Personally I think the entire metro legue needs to be seeded into leagues of 12 teams with straight promotion relagation each season. Two teams at a level should play each other.

No reason I can think of why an A side shouldnt play their B if they are both good enough to be in the same league. (other than trophy hunting reasons).

In general I have no issues with the like of that other than what happens in a few years if theres say , 5 Marys teams in J1 or J2? It's grand in theory if theres some crossover between 2 teams in the same league but you could end up with a whole league made up of teams from 2 or 3 clubs.

cmdrpaddy

Gary The Gamer wrote: »

This is pissing me off. The league had already started, fixtures were released and we had a nice win. Now I have to play on Friday with two days notice. Are some of the bottom tier 3b teams going to end up playing top J2 teams in this latest round robin?

I have no idea if these groups are correct but I've heard that two of the groups are:

Lansdowne J2, Clontarf J2, Bective J2, Old Wesley J3, Blackrock J3, UCD J2

Mary's J2, Old Belvedere J2, Stillorgan J2, Greystones J2, Lansdowne J3 Terenure J3

There will be two more groups which will be made up of the rest of the J2 and J3 teams.

I'd guess that any results that are able to stand from last weekend will.

remwhite

cmdrpaddy wrote: »

There's a difference between teams dropping out because they won't win the league and teams dropping out because they don't want 70+ points put on them every weekend, not that teams should drop out but one is far more understandable than the other.

The thing is, 2 of the teams who withdrew from the J2 league would have been competitive if they'd focussed their efforts on their J2 team. In '12 Wesley won the J3 league and in '11 they whitewashed Section B(9 bonus points from 9) and lost the final of the cup. Terenure were in the final of the cup and within a whisker of the J3 league last year. I've played against all of those teams and played mostly J2 last season and they would definitely have held their own in the J2 league.

As far as CYM or other teams like that go, I agree 100% on placing them in a more competitive league. No senior club should be permitted to skip a level.(barring exceptional circumstances like 'Rock)

We all play for clubs not teams. Not enough people embrace that. The club should always come first.

hurleronditch

This is a bit of a farce really, created by the fact that a couple of senior clubs like the idea of winning trophies at lower levels. It seemed that there was always a gentlemens understanding that the big clubs like Mary's, Nure, lansdowne, rock, belvo, Wesley etc fielded a team at each level, so it was 1st v 1sts, 2nds. V 2nds all the way down, and this was the situation for many many years. At some levels you won, at some you didn't, but trophys or no trophys if you were a j3 player, you played j3 even if it meant you finished 8th in the league. You were proud to represent your club, and you had good honest battles every Saturday or Sunday and went for pints after no matter whether home or away.

As recently as 07, there was a 16 team J2 with top 8 in knockout playoffs and a cup afterwards. There was a few hanmerings, but by and large the fixtures were competitive the year through. Since it went section a and b, and later 2 pools with super 6s, this ethos has vanished, with a couple of clubs in particular deciding that being competitive at J2 isn't worth it, better off to win the j3 and have a pot for the club bar.

Given what has now been forced upon everyone, the only solution is to go back to an old school divisions of maybe 8 or 12, right the way from j2 to j5 as someone else mentioned. You play your matches, the top 2 go up, the bottom two go down. You have a cup also per division, or maybe you combine two together. Clubs complain they have players who can't play certain days, so each club nominates when they want to play their home games, be it Friday lights, Saturday or Sunday. The away team knows this when fixtures come out in September, and there can be no complaints.

I would nearly go a step further and link it to the bottom of the Leinster leagues, if the 3rds of Mary's or belvo are good enough to compete in Leinster 2/3 with the Malahides or Wexfords or whoever, then all the better. Would also provide the natural progression for an upwardly mobile new club like stillorgan to get a foothold in the Junior ranks if they keep improving.

remwhite

hurleronditch wrote: »

This is a bit of a farce really, created by the fact that a couple of senior clubs like the idea of winning trophies at lower levels. It seemed that there was always a gentlemens understanding that the big clubs like Mary's, Nure, lansdowne, rock, belvo, Wesley etc fielded a team at each level, so it was 1st v 1sts, 2nds. V 2nds all the way down, and this was the situation for many many years. At some levels you won, at some you didn't, but trophys or no trophys if you were a j3 player, you played j3 even if it meant you finished 8th in the league. You were proud to represent your club, and you had good honest battles every Saturday or Sunday and went for pints after no matter whether home or away.

Hit the nail on the head here.

Lansdowne hadn't won the J2 cup in 12 years and the league in 25 but we stuck it out through some dreadful seasons. That's why the "you're a division 1A club " talk annoys me. We, as a junior squad, are the reason we were successful last year, no other reason.

I also think you might be on to something with the top 8 going to knock out. I always remember the league being much more tightly contested back in that format. We had some whopper matches in that set up.

cmdrpaddy

Why was the format changed if it was so successful?

Bort Ort

cmdrpaddy wrote: »

I don't understand what's wrong with the J4 league

I don't think most teams in it are really at a J4 standard.

In my opinion, A lot of players are too good to be playing J4 but just fancy playing within themselves and want to play on Saturdays.

In the ordinary course of events you'd expect there to be a similar numbers of teams across different standards but now we have 19 teams at J1, (planned 8 J2, 16 J3 and 32 J4. To me this shows people are just selecting playing at a lower level then they are able for.

I always thought J4 was just for the craic and to give people an introduction to the game. If you've played for a few years or you were ever able to play at J1 level or higher, you probably shouldn't be playing J4 in my opinion.

cmdrpaddy

Bort Ort wrote: »

I don't think most teams in it are really at a J4 standard.

In my opinion, A lot of players are too good to be playing J4 but just fancy playing within themselves and want to play on Saturdays.

In the ordinary course of events you'd expect there to be a similar numbers of teams across different standards but now we have 19 teams at J1, (planned 8 J2, 16 J3 and 32 J4. To me this shows people are just selecting playing at a lower level then they are able for.

I always thought J4 was just for the craic and to give people an introduction to the game. If you've played for a few years or you were ever able to play at J1 level or higher, you probably shouldn't be playing J4 in my opinion.

I get what you're saying but isn't J5 supposed to be for introducing people to rugby? I have always thought of J4 as simply a step below J3, not some wilderness where good players should never play.

I also don't understand why there'd be similar numbers of teams at different levels? There's far more players of J4 standard than J1 because there just isn't that many good players around.

I suppose one of the problems is that when you name a team a J4 team people expect it to stay in the J4 league almost irrespective of improvements the team might have made over the years. There's no expectation that you move up to J3. If there was a flat league system from J1 down and the leagues were named 1, 2, 3 etc. you might find that J4 (every level really) would find a more natural level? But then there would be issues of teams refusing to move up etc.

Gracelessly Tom

Bort Ort wrote: »

I don't think most teams in it are really at a J4 standard.

In my opinion, A lot of players are too good to be playing J4 but just fancy playing within themselves and want to play on Saturdays.

In the ordinary course of events you'd expect there to be a similar numbers of teams across different standards but now we have 19 teams at J1, (planned 8 J2, 16 J3 and 32 J4. To me this shows people are just selecting playing at a lower level then they are able for.

I always thought J4 was just for the craic and to give people an introduction to the game. If you've played for a few years or you were ever able to play at J1 level or higher, you probably shouldn't be playing J4 in my opinion.

I have to disagree with you there, yes some J4 teams are good but not many of them would win a J3 league(not including one blatantly loaded team of recent years). However they would be competitive which is what you'd expect from the top end J4 teams. After all, they are meant to be feeder teams to J3 teams.

All the J4 sections are highly competitive and go down to the last game almost every season.

As for the introducing players comment, that's what the J5 league is for and to a lesser extent Section D of the J4 league.

Luckycharm

cmdrpaddy wrote: »

I get what you're saying but isn't J5 supposed to be for introducing people to rugby? I have always thought of J4 as simply a step below J3, not some wilderness where good players should never play.

I also don't understand why there'd be similar numbers of teams at different levels? There's far more players of J4 standard than J1 because there just isn't that many good players around.

I suppose one of the problems is that when you name a team a J4 team people expect it to stay in the J4 league almost irrespective of improvements the team might have made over the years. There's no expectation that you move up to J3. If there was a flat league system from J1 down and the leagues were named 1, 2, 3 etc. you might find that J4 (every level really) would find a more natural level? But then there would be issues of teams refusing to move up etc.

When do the J3s play their games now- I know when I played J3 a few seasons ago games were on a Sunday which was pain and very hard to get players out for. Sat rugby was always alot more appealing hence i think quite a few players would only play J4rugby.

cmdrpaddy

Luckycharm wrote: »

When do the J3s play their games now- I know when I played J3 a few seasons ago games were on a Sunday which was pain and very hard to get players out for. Sat rugby was always alot more appealing hence i think quite a few players would only play J4rugby.

I think a lot of them have been moved to Friday but I'd imagine some of them are still on Sundays.

Gary The Gamer

Sundays for clubs without floodlights, Friday night otherwise. I much prefer Fridays but I know some older players like the Sundays!

J3 can and should be a real mixed bag of the ex AIL J1 player that is winding down their playing career, new guys that come from other sports and have the right athlethic ability for their position and younger guys that are moving up from 21s and may well go on to play a higher level. I think J4 should be more about the newer players that might not have played when they were younger and good players that can't train as much due to work or whatever.

ColmH81

Gracelessly Tom wrote: »

Mary's are competitive from the 1st team all the way through to the J6's and that includes two J4 teams. We'd rather not be tarred with the same brush as clubs who blatantly load to win trophies.

I can assure you there's absolutely no loading going on at Seapoint.. The amount of phone calls that are made to get players up to the J4 team is unreal.. Last season they were very unlucky not to win the j4 section B.. But that was down to hard work every Tuesday and Thursday...

Teferi

ITT: Every club accusing every other club of stacking teams.

remwhite

I think it's fair to say that basically everyone gets punished for the behavior of some clubs. The weak teams, the strong teams, the level skipping teams. No one gets a good rub out of this.

Lansdowne J3s start with Marys J2 while the J2s are playing 'Rock's J3s. Jaysus....

stephen_n

hurleronditch wrote: »

This is a bit of a farce really, created by the fact that a couple of senior clubs like the idea of winning trophies at lower levels. It seemed that there was always a gentlemens understanding that the big clubs like Mary's, Nure, lansdowne, rock, belvo, Wesley etc fielded a team at each level, so it was 1st v 1sts, 2nds. V 2nds all the way down, and this was the situation for many many years. At some levels you won, at some you didn't, but trophys or no trophys if you were a j3 player, you played j3 even if it meant you finished 8th in the league. You were proud to represent your club, and you had good honest battles every Saturday or Sunday and went for pints after no matter whether home or away.

As recently as 07, there was a 16 team J2 with top 8 in knockout playoffs and a cup afterwards. There was a few hanmerings, but by and large the fixtures were competitive the year through. Since it went section a and b, and later 2 pools with super 6s, this ethos has vanished, with a couple of clubs in particular deciding that being competitive at J2 isn't worth it, better off to win the j3 and have a pot for the club bar.

Given what has now been forced upon everyone, the only solution is to go back to an old school divisions of maybe 8 or 12, right the way from j2 to j5 as someone else mentioned. You play your matches, the top 2 go up, the bottom two go down. You have a cup also per division, or maybe you combine two together. Clubs complain they have players who can't play certain days, so each club nominates when they want to play their home games, be it Friday lights, Saturday or Sunday. The away team knows this when fixtures come out in September, and there can be no complaints.

I would nearly go a step further and link it to the bottom of the Leinster leagues, if the 3rds of Mary's or belvo are good enough to compete in Leinster 2/3 with the Malahides or Wexfords or whoever, then all the better. Would also provide the natural progression for an upwardly mobile new club like stillorgan to get a foothold in the Junior ranks if they keep improving.

IIRC it wasn't a gentlemens agreement at all, it was part of the qualification process for senior clubs, they had to field down as far as J4 to qualify!

cmdrpaddy

I think senior teams are required to have a J1 team but I don't think there's a requirement for any lower teams.

Anyone have any idea about where rules like this might be accessible?

ColmH81

cmdrpaddy wrote: »

I think senior teams are required to have a J1 team but I don't think there's a requirement for any lower teams.

Anyone have any idea about where rules like this might be accessible?

I believe you're correct here.. My last club we had the 1sts(AIL), J1s and then J4..

whysomoody

stephen_n wrote: »

IIRC it wasn't a gentlemens agreement at all, it was part of the qualification process for senior clubs, they had to field down as far as J4 to qualify!

Possibly should reintroduce that? Being a senior club, apart from the top tier status, affords the club some very good perks too.

Eoin

remwhite wrote: »

Marys, Terenure, Wesley, Lansdowne, 'Rock, Seapoint, Clontarf and Greystones have all won trophies at J2 in the last 7 years I can't understand how so few of them are competitive now. Also, Greystones and Terenure both whitewashed the J4 and J5 leagues.

Seapoint got promoted from J1 to the AIL a few seasons ago, so the seconds moved from J2 to J1. That was arguably a bigger step up for the seconds than it was for the firsts - and it would have been a bigger step up again for the 3rds if we would have had to step up to J2. We have done quite well over the last couple of seasons at J4, but we've a mix of new players to the game as well.

Teferi wrote:

ITT: Every club accusing every other club of stacking teams.

I don't really think that's going on here (only one team springs to mind for me!)

stephen_n

cmdrpaddy wrote: »

I think senior teams are required to have a J1 team but I don't think there's a requirement for any lower teams.

Anyone have any idea about where rules like this might be accessible?

As far as I remember that was the rule pre-professional rugby, think it may have changed after that as player numbers started to reduce. In those days we had 9 teams at cup time below senior level, a vastly different scene to now days.

remwhite

Anyone know why 'Rock-Clontarf is off?