USI Referendum

Annasopra

I'm not a TCD Student. I was a student in three other colleges in Ireland and a student union activist in 2 of them.

Having worked alongside lots of TCDSU people and lots and lots of USI officers I have to say if I was a TCD student voting in the USI referendum I would vote no.

http://www.universitytimes.ie/?p=12424

A lot of the arguments made by those advocating a disaffiliation are ludicrous and nonsense

The movement for disaffiliation of Trinity Students’ Union from the Union of Students in Ireland (USI) began in November 2011. A group of frustrated students got together to discuss the many problems they had with the dysfunctional organisation. After an hour’s discussion, the consensus among these students was clear. Disaffiliation was the only option.

There are always different options. To present disaffiliation as the only option is completely false

Now here we are almost a year later and a referendum to decide the future of Trinity SU’s membership of the USI is about to take place. It’s unfortunate that the only reasonable option for Trinity students is to disaffiliate but that’s the reality of the situation.

Again there are other options

We, as students, need national representation, something that the USI is not adequately providing. To be a successful representative you need to have credibility, capability and accountability. Recent events have revealed that the USI can no longer claim to possess any of these three characteristics.

Having watched USI over the last year or two from a distance I saw some very capable people take some very capable actions. I saw Gary Redmond challenge Ruairi Quinn over his pledge, I saw John Logue challenge Clare County Council and others on there letters re the household charge, I saw Laura Harmon give an amazing speech on Marriage Equality and I saw USI employ a new manager who is incredibly capable, credible and accountable

It is clear that the students of Trinity College Dublin have long held different views on how the USI should be run and what policies it should pursue.

It is called democracy. Some people have differing views.

Therefore, it is irrelevant that the USI has a seat on the Higher Education Authority or that it is invited to make media appearances.

It's not irrelevant at all. It is quite significant that USI has a national representation on the HEA and in the media. Losing that National representation is actually a big loss to Trinity and it's students

That seat and those appearances do not represent the views of Trinity students.

Let's not pretend here. SOME students THINK they are not represented. It is impossible for the head of an organisation representing 250,000 students to represent all students.

We need to ask ourselves the question: what benefit are we getting from the €77,000 a year we pay for the “privilege” of USI membership?

Fair enough. Ask away. In my view the benefits are many - training for officers, national representation for TCD students, an ability for TCDSU members to network with other SUs and learn from each other

Disaffiliation would not mean abandoning the vision that brought about the USI. Disaffiliation would show that we are serious about who represents us; that we are serious about pursuing the principles of national representation. Disaffiliation would show that we are not willing to settle for a failed organisation; an organisation that refuses to look for self-improvement and is indifferent to its lack of accountability. It is vitally important that we let our own Union, Trinity College Students’ Union, provide us with national representation instead.

This is a joke right? TCDSUs mandate is not to represent students at a national level and indeed why should it. TCDSU has a lot of work to do within TCD. TCDSU will not be given the same media access to speak on behalf of students on a national level as USI. TCDSU won't have a HEA seat.

Trinity College Students’ Union possesses the three characteristics necessary to take on this role: credibility, capability and accountability. The contrast in competence with the USI could not be clearer.

Yawn

This isn’t the first time in recent years that Trinity has been frustrated with the USI. There have been frustrations before. But these frustrations were dampened by the hope of change, by the hope that we could develop a better organisation and by the hope that our views and those of the USI hierarchy would come into alignment.

These hopes were far from realised.

The USI has not changed, it has not developed into a better organisation and if anything, the views of the USI and Trinity students have diverged even further. The sad reality is that the USI lacks anything even approaching the credibility, capability, and accountability that we need to have our viewpoint, the needs of Irish students, truly represented on the national stage.

From an outsider point of view I've seen huge change within USI in the last year or two.

A YES vote for disaffiliation from the Union of Students in Ireland is a vote for credibility, capability and accountability in the representation of Trinity Students.

Yawn.

Ziphius

mango salsa wrote: »

There are always different options. To present disaffiliation as the only option is completely false

Perhaps, what are these options? Remember that the yes campaign, doesn't, necessarily, coincide with the views of pro-disaffiliation students. I've noticed that the no campaign are damn keen to caricature and straw man the yes sides arguments. See the recent facebook note as an example.

mango salsa wrote: »

Again there are other options

Ditto.

mango salsa wrote: »

It is called democracy. Some people have differing views.

Well that's the point isn't? Why would TCD want to affiliate with an organisation that doesn't represent its views?

mango salsa wrote: »

It's not irrelevant at all. It is quite significant that USI has a national representation on the HEA and in the media. Losing that National representation is actually a big loss to Trinity and it's students

In what way?

mango salsa wrote: »

Let's not pretend here. SOME students THINK they are not represented. It is impossible for the head of an organisation representing 250,000 students to represent all students.

Again it's all well and good saying it's democratic but if the organisation doesn't represent the views of Trinity students why would they want to be part of it?

mango salsa wrote: »

Fair enough. Ask away. In my view the benefits are many - training for officers, national representation for TCD students, an ability for TCDSU members to network with other SUs and learn from each other

It would seem that many Trinity students don't see this as a good return on their investment.

mango salsa wrote: »

This is a joke right? TCDSUs mandate is not to represent students at a national level and indeed why should it. TCDSU has a lot of work to do within TCD. TCDSU will not be given the same media access to speak on behalf of students on a national level as USI. TCDSU won't have a HEA seat.

Really? Why shouldn't it be? If the USI can change why can't TCDSU? Indeed according to the TCDSU website the presidents duties include:
"coordinating campaigns and ensuring that students have a voice at every level of college decision-making".

mango salsa wrote: »

Yawn

:rolleyes:

mango salsa wrote: »

From an outsider point of view I've seen huge change within USI in the last year or two.

Feel free to share.

mango salsa wrote: »

Yawn.

Late night?

Ravelleman

The fact that so few people are really engaged in it shows how much people value the USI. When the vote happens and the turn out is terrible, as I imagine it will be, regardless of who wins, it will be a victory for indifference, not democracy. For me the effects of this will be entirely abstract, even imaginary given the USI's negligible influence on my life. If I can muster any enthusiasm I'll be voting yes to cut dead weight from an already bloated and totally ineffective Students' Union bureaucracy. And so that I won't have to pay €8 or so a year to be associated with it.

Ziphius

Ravelleman wrote: »

The fact that so few people are really engaged in it shows how much people value the USI. When the vote happens and the turn out is terrible, as I imagine it will be, regardless of who wins, it will be a victory for indifference, not democracy. For me the effects of this will be entirely abstract, even imaginary given the USI's negligible influence on my life. If I can muster any enthusiasm I'll be voting yes to cut dead weight from an already bloated and totally ineffective Students' Union bureaucracy. And so that I won't have to pay €8 or so a year to be associated with it.

Ha! I think this sums up the antipathy toward the USI perfectly. It's not even worth €8 a year. What's that? Four cans in the Pav? Though, I think it was €7 back in my day. I guess all those seats in HEA committees don't come cheap.

blubloblu

I find it funny how much of the no campaign is from outside College. I wonder if it will have a worse turnout than the 440 on the first preferendum.

Ziphius

blubloblu wrote: »

I find it funny how much of the no campaign is from outside College. I wonder if it will have a worse turnout than the 440 on the first preferendum.

Not really surprising though. It's in their interest to keep TCD in the USI. I mean if TCD does leave what does the individual Trinity student get? A measly €8. What does the USI get if TCD remains part of the USI? €8 for every Trinity student. What's that?
8 * 17,000 = €136,000. Not a pittance.

Edit Apparently the USI don't get the full €8 so the total from Trinity would be closer to €80,000. Still not insignificant.

Anita Blow

mango salsa wrote: »

There are always different options. To present disaffiliation as the only option is completely false

Again there are other options

What are the other options?
TCDSU has already voiced it's views to USI and quite often it falls on deaf ears. Ryan Bartlett made his unhappiness with USI pretty clear last year. If we don't feel that it's representing our views anymore, we have the right to disaffiliate. Why would we pay €77,000 a year to an organisation which the student body doesn't think represents them?

mango salsa wrote: »

Having watched USI over the last year or two from a distance I saw some very capable people take some very capable actions. I saw Gary Redmond challenge Ruairi Quinn over his pledge, I saw John Logue challenge Clare County Council and others on there letters re the household charge, I saw Laura Harmon give an amazing speech on Marriage Equality and I saw USI employ a new manager who is incredibly capable, credible and accountable

That's great. But there's not one thing there that couldn't be done by our own SU Head and apart from Clare County Council, none of them have delivered a tangible benefit to Trinity students.

mango salsa wrote: »

It is called democracy. Some people have differing views.

Again, Student Unions aren't obligated to be apart of it. If we feel that we aren't being represented then we're perfectly entitled to disaffiliate.

mango salsa wrote: »

It's not irrelevant at all. It is quite significant that USI has a national representation on the HEA and in the media. Losing that National representation is actually a big loss to Trinity and it's students

Just like DCU and UL, I'm sure we'll survive.
Trinity is a sufficiently big enough brand to have it's voice heard on it's own.

mango salsa wrote: »

Let's not pretend here. SOME students THINK they are not represented. It is impossible for the head of an organisation representing 250,000 students to represent all students.

.

Those "SOME" students also happen to be from the one college. If they're not being represented for the money they're paying, then let them disaffiliate and the USI can continue on with the colleges that do feel represents them.

mango salsa wrote: »

Fair enough. Ask away. In my view the benefits are many - training for officers, national representation for TCD students, an ability for TCDSU members to network with other SUs and learn from each other


This is a joke right? TCDSUs mandate is not to represent students at a national level and indeed why should it. TCDSU has a lot of work to do within TCD. TCDSU will not be given the same media access to speak on behalf of students on a national level as USI. TCDSU won't have a HEA seat.

None of those really require the USI.
1)If the SU is looking to disaffiliate, I'm sure they have a plan in place to train new officers.
2)TCDSU can provide national representation for TCD Students just like the DCU and UL SUs do.
3)USI isn't needed for TCDSU to pick up the phone and interact with other SUs.

You should also read the union constitution before saying what the mandate of the union is/is not.

To act as the recognised channel of communications between its members and the college and other bodies.
To work for the maintenance and improvement of the quality of education in the college and for an equitable education system.
To provide for the welfare of its members.
To provide social and recreational amenities for its members.
To provide commercial services for its members.
To develop and maintain relations with other students' unions, and the general public. These objectives shall be pursued without discrimination based on nationality, age, parentage, race, sex, sexual orientation, disability, marital status, creed or political group. The Union shall pursue these objectives independent of any political, racial or religious ideology.

Also the role of the president within the consitution:

The duties specific to the role of President shall be:
To act as the primary representative for the members of the Union in the furtherance of the aims and principles of this constitution as laid out in Chapter 1.

To represent the members of the Union on college committees including but not limited to:
-The Board of Trinity College Dublin.
-Sub-committees, working groups and advisory groups of the Board where relevant.
-Any other external group that is relevant to the furtherance of these duties.

To act as liaison between the Union and external bodies including, but not limited to:
The Students' Unions of the affiliated Colleges.
The Central Societies Committee.
The Dublin University Clubs and Athletics Committee.
Any other external bodies relevant to the members of the Union.

Representing TCD Students at national level clearly does fall within the remit of the Student's Union.

Lawliet

I'll be voting yes. Simply because I can't think of a single thing the USI had done that has had an effect on the average student, I can however think of a few things the TCD SU have done that have really made a difference -like the loan scheme, and paying the registration fee in installments. If I have to pay eight euro every year, why would I want it to go to the crowd organizing protests, and taking out full page ads I don't agree with, when the money could go my own SU who are doing things that actually benefit all students.

blubloblu

I think a lot of the problems with the USI stem from its federal nature. It serves the SU hacks, not the students.
If it was a Union of Students, and not a Union of Student Unions, it would go a long way towards repairing its image.
Their response to most of the criticism directed towards it is blamed on poor communication by the SUs.
It can still be reformed away from a federation, and Trinity SU disaffiliating won't matter then if membership will be at an individual level.

Ravelleman

Indeed. The only thing worse than students' union amateurism is the same amateurism on a national scale, with no one to actually answer to.

andrew

All the SU and USI are is a special type of society for people who want to get into/are interested in politics and activism, but which everyone is forced to join each year and pay €8 for. For people not in this society, it contributes pretty much nothing at university level (apart from the odd good idea), and absolutely nothing at a national level. The USI and SU are entirely pointless, abolish them both.

lucernarian

andrew wrote: »

All the SU and USI are is a special type of society for people who want to get into/are interested in politics and activism, but which everyone is forced to join each year and pay €8 for. For people not in this society, it contributes pretty much nothing at university level (apart from the odd good idea), and absolutely nothing at a national level. The USI and SU are entirely pointless, abolish them both.

Given the comments that the above have elicited on this forum and the length of time that this poster has been active on this forum, it sounds more like a provocation than a reasoned argument. If anyone has to go off on a tangent on this thread, could they at least demonstrate or elaborate on some teeny weeny part of their points?

For trinity students, the class rep system and the activities of the education officer in particular will sooner or later have a big impact on their experience. I.e. I've seen situations exist where academic staff will only handle course queries or criticisms via the class rep. One of many examples I think. The relevance here is that we don't exactly need the USI to carry out these core functions of student representation at grassroots level.

Ravelleman

The TCD Students' Union certainly does provide a number of important services on campus so my contempt for it isn't as strong as it is for the USI. Perhaps it should just limit itself to on campus activities. This would probably be a more efficient and effective use of its time and resources.

andrew

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

Given the comments that the above have elicited on this forum and the length of time that this poster has been active on this forum, it sounds more like a provocation than a reasoned argument. If anyone has to go off on a tangent on this thread, could they at least demonstrate or elaborate on some teeny weeny part of their points?

For trinity students, the class rep system and the activities of the education officer in particular will sooner or later have a big impact on their experience. I.e. I've seen situations exist where academic staff will only handle course queries or criticisms via the class rep. One of many examples I think. The relevance here is that we don't exactly need the USI to carry out these core functions of student representation at grassroots level.

Some elaboration:

Every SU officer position, with the exception of president, could be done more effectively by a trained professional permanent salaried employee. Welfare could be done by someone with actual training in counselling and admin, instead of some (inevitably female) student of social work or some other similar subject who inevitably has no actual experience in that area. Ents could be done by someone actually experienced in organising events instead of some LAD whose just interested in lining his own pockets and eventually going into event management. [And if you claim that such a person wouldn't know what students like...in my experience ents guys aren't much better.] Education could be done by, you guessed it, someone with a background in education instead of someone who pretends to give a ****e and pretends they'll be able to make changes in as little time as a year. Publications....I don't even know why the SU needs a newspaper. College already has a PR/marketing team I imagine, UT could exist in the same way TN does. Keep the president though, as a student liaison between college and students. At the very least, this might improve the quality of these services because they'd be provided by people with professional experience. In addition, the ability of these people to follow projects through for longer than a year might mean that things actually get done, instead of new officers trying something new every year. The amount of time new officers must waste in forming new contacts and getting to know the lay of the land must be immense, and this is time that's wasted every single year.

With regard to class reps: of course staff will only handle criticism via class rep....that's what they're currently there for. That and organising ****e class parties and taking money for hoodies or whatever; hardly crucial tasks. The class rep system could still exist, except now college wouldn't have to waste money sending them on a 'training' pissup; they could just be called a 'class liaison' or something.

If students want to have their money wasted, they should at least be able to choose what society wastes it. They shouldn't be forced to join the students union society and subsidise the political aspirations of a minority of SU hacks.

/rant. I know this thread is about the USI, but I figure talking about students unions in a thread about the USI is relatively less tangential than what tends to happen in other threads.

blubloblu

Turnout 2431, have to say I'm impressed.

1,496 No
829 Yes
106 spoiled

Not happy with the result, but the No side did run a better campaign.

Agent Smith

Lawliet

Surprised by how much the 'No' side won, guess people really like funding hacks.

Anita Blow

Surprised by that! I really thought every opinion poll was pointing towards the Yes side winning.

Kwekubo

Anita Blow wrote: »

Surprised by that! I really thought every opinion poll was pointing towards the Yes side winning.

The opinion poll in TN had almost the exact same ratio of yes votes to no votes (32.3% : 58.3%).

timmywex

Good result realistically. Dont like the USI too much and not really in favour of them, but at the end of the day its a stronger organisation together and us disaffiliating would lead to our voice being heard less on the national stage i think

Ravelleman

In the great, meaningless vote between option A and option B, A won this time. But who knows, in the near future B may well win too. It often does. And then universal balance will be restored.

This is democracy after all.

Grimebox

I stood up and let my indifference be heard by drawing a cock on the voting slip to add to the spolied tally. It is important to let them know how little I give a **** which way it went

Lisandro

Grimebox wrote: »

I stood up and let my indifference be heard by drawing a cock on the voting slip to add to the spolied tally. It is important to let them know how little I give a **** which way it went

You do realise how entirely self-defeating that is, don't you?

Grimebox

Lisandro wrote: »

You do realise how entirely self-defeating that is, don't you?

No I don't. My aim was to spoil the vote. How have I not achieved my goal?

Scortho

A lot of my friends who voted, voted no as they didnt know what it was about and what it was for.

Really pissed me off. Whats the point in voting on something if you dont know what your voting on?

Lawliet

Scortho wrote: »

A lot of my friends who voted, voted no as they didnt know what it was about and what it was for.

I've heard of a few people who were confused by the wording and thought voting yes was sticking with the USI
Makes me wonder exactly how many no votes were genuine

Scortho

Disclaimer in advance, I'm a former Education Officer of TCDSU.

Scortho wrote: »

A lot of my friends who voted, voted no as they didnt know what it was about and what it was for.

Really pissed me off. Whats the point in voting on something if you dont know what your voting on?

It's not worth getting pissed off about it. Every vote is counted, no matter whether the person behind it knows what they're doing. For more important elections you have people voting for politicians because they fixed tha rooaaad.

andrew wrote: »

Some elaboration:

Every SU officer position, with the exception of president, could be done more effectively by a trained professional permanent salaried employee. Welfare could be done by someone with actual training in counselling and admin, instead of some (inevitably female) student of social work or some other similar subject who inevitably has no actual experience in that area.

Ents could be done by someone actually experienced in organising events instead of some LAD whose just interested in lining his own pockets and eventually going into event management. [And if you claim that such a person wouldn't know what students like...in my experience ents guys aren't much better.]

Education could be done by, you guessed it, someone with a background in education instead of someone who pretends to give a ****e and pretends they'll be able to make changes in as little time as a year.

Publications....I don't even know why the SU needs a newspaper. College already has a PR/marketing team I imagine, UT could exist in the same way TN does.

Keep the president though, as a student liaison between college and students.

At the very least, this might improve the quality of these services because they'd be provided by people with professional experience. In addition, the ability of these people to follow projects through for longer than a year might mean that things actually get done, instead of new officers trying something new every year. The amount of time new officers must waste in forming new contacts and getting to know the lay of the land must be immense, and this is time that's wasted every single year.

With regard to class reps: of course staff will only handle criticism via class rep....that's what they're currently there for. That and organising ****e class parties and taking money for hoodies or whatever; hardly crucial tasks. The class rep system could still exist, except now college wouldn't have to waste money sending them on a 'training' pissup; they could just be called a 'class liaison' or something.

If students want to have their money wasted, they should at least be able to choose what society wastes it. They shouldn't be forced to join the students union society and subsidise the political aspirations of a minority of SU hacks.

/rant. I know this thread is about the USI, but I figure talking about students unions in a thread about the USI is relatively less tangential than what tends to happen in other threads.

I've always thought that part of the point of the SU was that it was a direct liaison between students and the college. Representatives of the students are there because students may not want to deal with the College. I'd argue the with employees instead of SU reps that it would turn into something similar to a College department, and part of the time you are fighting with College. The working world also doesn't allow you to be as argumentative as you can be when you are acting as a representative in my experience. If you're employed somewhere, you're generally looking to keep your job so would be less vocal.

Could my position have been done by someone in a full-time position? Yes, in part (obviously the position on Board is something else entirely). But you lose one of the best points about the SU in doing that - the representative part: Of the students and all that.

You focus on the benefits of a medium/long term employee, have you considered the benefits of the positions only being one year? For example, I was able to play bad cop with Trinity towards the end of my term safe in the knowledge that a new person was coming on board.

It's hardly a perfect system but I don't think that an employee instead of the Education Officer would be acceptable. I'd argue the same for Welfare too. Publications, well, I always like the UCD Observer model for publications (paid by the SU but editorially independent). Ents I've no opinion on.

On the point of USI, I'm glad the referendum passed even if USI is never going to be perfect.

Ravelleman

Ents is the single most corrupt operation in Trinity. How can you not have an opinion on it? That's unbelievably weak and quite representative of the attitude of people involved in the Students' Union. Nobody in the Students' Union could possibly criticise the Ents system because that wouldn't be showing the ludicrous solidarity and sense of self-preservation that members of its higher echelons all rely on.

If a senion officer in the Students' Union has no opinion on something like that, how can they then suggest that someone in a permanent role wouldn't be as argumentative and, therefore, truly representative as they would?

I think that that shows the negative culture within the Students' Union. It promises so much and believes itself so important but ultimately its totally toothless and shies away from real issues.

Ravelleman

Ravelleman wrote: »

Ents is the single most corrupt operation in Trinity. How can you not have an opinion on it? That's unbelievably weak and quite representative of the attitude of people involved in the Students' Union. Nobody in the Students' Union could possibly criticise the Ents system because that wouldn't be showing the ludicrous solidarity and sense of self-preservation that members of its higher echelons all rely on.

If a senion officer in the Students' Union has no opinion on something like that, how can they then suggest that someone in a permanent role wouldn't be as argumentative and, therefore, truly representative as they would?

I think that that shows the negative culture within the Students' Union. It promises so much and believes itself so important but ultimately its totally toothless and shies away from real issues.

That's nice. I wouldn't attempt to give an opinion given my lack of interest in the area.

Good luck trying to show me as part of this negative culture you talk about.

Ravelleman

Well, I think Ents is a pretty big issue in terms of Students' Union 'politics'. You don't actually deal with any of the points raised in my post so I'm not really sure what you're trying to show here. If you really don't have an opinion you're proving my point. Not having an opinion is as bad as having unshakable loyalty, despite the reality of the situation. Students' Unions and their officers don't seem to like like self-scrutiny. And I suppose that that is one of the main problems with the USI as well.

Anyway, I'm digressing somewhat from the real topic of the thread. Apologies for that.

blubloblu

Lawliet wrote: »

I've heard of a few people who were confused by the wording and thought voting yes was sticking with the USI
Makes me wonder exactly how many no votes were genuine

Bit worrying if students in higher education can't correctly answer Yes or No to the question "Do you want TCDSU to disaffiliate from USI?"

Woo! Go Turd Sandwich!

Anita Blow

Isn't UCD replacing their Ents officer with a permanent paid position?
I'd be in favour of that

Lawliet

blubloblu wrote: »

Bit worrying if students in higher education can't correctly answer Yes or No to the question "Do you want TCDSU to disaffiliate from USI?"

I meant during the campaigning stage, a lot of people didn't know what the wording of the question was, and misunderstood what the yes and no side were supporting.

Lisandro

Grimebox wrote: »

No I don't. My aim was to spoil the vote. How have I not achieved my goal?

So let me get this straight.

You decided to spoil your vote, and thus leave the totality of votes for and against exactly the same, in a demonstration that nobody beyond a confused counter saw in an election you didn't even care about (yet cared enough about to go out of your way to express it).

Could there be anything more inconsequential than that? Oh, forget it...

Scortho

blubloblu wrote: »

Bit worrying if students in higher education can't correctly answer Yes or No to the question "Do you want TCDSU to disaffiliate from USI?"

As Samuel Beckett once said Dublin university contains the cream of Ireland: Rich and thick.

By god was he spot on!

timmywex

Ravelleman wrote: »

Ents is the single most corrupt operation in Trinity.

Care to back that up with any kind of fact or is it just a ludicrous accusation?