Peugeot Partner problems

4JAKE

Few heads are better than one so here goes.

Bought this 2003 Partner Van straight 1.9 diesel. Without going into it ive bought a pig in a bag, and i have to live with it.
Few problems maybe are related maybe not.

1. BSI problem, no central locking, no radio, after start up heater blower only starts to work after van revs over 750rpm on gauge.....
Now i also have come to conclusion that the Rev counter isnt actually showing the true revs..

2. Some times i am getting what i think is called diesel knock on a first start, not all the time. I have been told this maybe the Advance control solenoid. Lucas pump.

3. The van doesnt seem to rev high, it sits at 2200rpm, and wont rev higher, and puts out a strong smoke and sounds to run rough, almost like a miss, Now again this is going by the Rev counter, which i now think is not showing the proper rev, its sounds a lot higher than whats showing on Rev counter..

4. When driving the van it has no kick or pull in it, would smell a hill a mile off.

Its been to Peugout to get a list of problems made up to give back to the seller, so it wasnt a specific investigation into one certain problem,
But report came back saying fault recorded in BSI and Permanent Fault Recorded on Injector pump.

What ive done so far ..
I have a broken lid on airbox thats probably sucking in un filterd air,and im trying to find one.
I have changed the Diesel Filter and air filter and no change.
Just today it was suggested AFM, so i unplugged it and it made absolutly no difference to the van and how it drives, and clean the afm and it made no difference.
It was also suggested blocked cat, but i wouldnt imagine it would rev up at all with that.
Van starts first turn, and only when the knock comes into it does it start/ idle bad.

ljpg

4JAKE wrote: »

Few heads are better than one so here goes.

Bought this 2003 Partner Van straight 1.9 diesel. Without going into it ive bought a pig in a bag, and i have to live with it.
Few problems maybe are related maybe not.

1. BSI problem, no central locking, no radio, after start up heater blower only starts to work after van revs over 750rpm on gauge.....
Now i also have come to conclusion that the Rev counter isnt actually showing the true revs..

2. Some times i am getting what i think is called diesel knock on a first start, not all the time. I have been told this maybe the Advance control solenoid. Lucas pump.

3. The van doesnt seem to rev high, it sits at 2200rpm, and wont rev higher, and puts out a strong smoke and sounds to run rough, almost like a miss, Now again this is going by the Rev counter, which i now think is not showing the proper rev, its sounds a lot higher than whats showing on Rev counter..

4. When driving the van it has no kick or pull in it, would smell a hill a mile off.

Its been to Peugout to get a list of problems made up to give back to the seller, so it wasnt a specific investigation into one certain problem,
But report came back saying fault recorded in BSI and Permanent Fault Recorded on Injector pump.

What ive done so far ..
I have a broken lid on airbox thats probably sucking in un filterd air,and im trying to find one.
I have changed the Diesel Filter and air filter and no change.
Just today it was suggested AFM, so i unplugged it and it made absolutly no difference to the van and how it drives, and clean the afm and it made no difference.
It was also suggested blocked cat, but i wouldnt imagine it would rev up at all with that.
Van starts first turn, and only when the knock comes into it does it start/ idle bad.

very sorry to hear ya bought a dinger but what advice are ya looking for exactly? if peugeot told ya theres an bsi and a injector problem thats where you should be starting instead of rooting with the afm and changing filters in the vain hope of it magically sorting it,if it was me i'd be bringing it back to whoever ya bought it off and asking for me money back

dgt

Not being funny but that's French electrics for you....

BSI- Start by tearing out the plastic door trim and carpet under the drivers side. There should be multi plugs under there, these often get wet, corrode and cause all sorts of mayhem. They often look like this:


Not my photo, from here.

No pull in the van? Lucas pump? Screw it out :pac::pac::pac:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbkN3PaGRQU

Personally, if I had a DW8 partner, I'd bin it and stick in a D-Turbo...

4JAKE

Thats a good option in a perfect world, but when someone tells you they have no money to give you back or wont, what do you do?? Go to a soliciter?? win your case and they still have no money, and you have a bill.
Trust me ive weighed it all up and i am gonna have to try tidy the van up.
Anyway i want to try sort the problems, not rant about being rode in all the wrong ways.
I only have a Fault reported on injector pump, i was hoping to get a more definite idea of what is wrong, is it a sensor, single injector, complete pump etc etc, if the advance control valve can effect the revs even if its not causing knock at that time,

Also whats best route to take with Bsi, or can Bsi cause some of the running problems aswell. plenty of room for some help and info i think

4JAKE

DGT, thanks for that, i will have a look 2mro under the carpet

dgt

4JAKE wrote: »

DGT, thanks for that, i will have a look 2mro under the carpet

No problem

While you are there, look at the earths on the footwell and clean them up well with contact cleaner regardless of their condition. You would be surprised what a little corrosion does to electrics!

4JAKE

Would the fact that un plugging the afm not effecting the van mean the the afm is gone?

George Dalton

I wonder has this van had a replacement engine?

The reason I ask is that I saw one of these before with similar symptoms. Turned out to be a simple problem.

The engines changed in these in 2003. The crank sensor on both gets its signal from the flywheel. One type of engine has one lug on the flywheel, the other has two. So if one type of engine is replaced with the other type and the flywheel isn't swapped over from the original engine, then you can end up with the symptoms you describe. The rpm signal will be incorrect and a fault will be logged for the injector pump because the ECU can't make sense of the signal from the pump vs the confusing signal from the crank sensor.

To tell the difference between the engines, have a look at the crankshaft pulley, the newer type has just a single bolt in the centre of the pulley, the earlier engine has a bolt in the centre plus four smaller bolts for removing the outer part of the pulley. Most 2003 vans would be the newer type.

4JAKE

Hey George, anything is a possibility with this van unfortunetly,
And i guess even if the engine was never changed, there is always a possibility that perhaps the flywheel on its own was replaced at some time with the wrong type.
Will try get a look today if the rain decides to stop.

Row

Bsi problems can be common enough on the berlingos/partners...Check to see if windscreen water drain off ducts are'nt blocked...sometimes these block with leaves etc and the rainwater from the windscreen backs up and makes its way into the cabin and into the bsi...:eek:

As for the knocking noise..you really need to see what faults codes are codes on the engine ecu/bsi..?
If could be a faulty advance solenoid or the timing maybe out alittle..
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=77429502

George could on the ball with the with the extra lug on the on the flyweel crank sensor...Its definitely worth checking it out..maybe compare engine numbers on the logbook to whats stamped on the engine itself.

4JAKE

What do you think about the AFM not making any difference un plugged??

If i find that the pulley is the correct one, there may still be a chance that the flywheel was changed on its own and wrong one fitted, is there anyway without taking box out of checking the flywheel for the correct amount of pick ups?

The Bsi is one problem, i pulled it out the other day to check for corrode, rot etc etc.. it had been opened before, and i found that it was dry and clean inside, altough on the back of the board there looked to be a Chip replaced on it, ive talked to a guy about it and he told me that the chip is one used to bypass an immobiliser, and he was thinking that the Bsi was replaced by 2nd one, immobiliser removed on bsi, but this Bsi was no good either, and he thought it may be the processor thats not functioning correct.

George Dalton

The BSI issue could also be related to the other problem. If my guess about the flywheels is correct and the rpm signal is reading exactly half of the true rpm then the BSI thinks that the engine is only idling at 400rpm (approx) then it may not allow the electrical consumers such as the heater blower to work.

In my opinion the first thing you need to do is establish why the rev counter is reading incorrectly. The signal from the rev counter in the clocks comes from the engine ECU which in turn gets it from the crank sensor. So the first thing you need to do is get a scan tool connected that can show live data and use it to read the rpm signal from the ECU. This will tell you whether the rev counter issue is a fundamental problem or just faulty clocks. If the ECU is reading the correct rpm then you can continue with the diagnostic process but if the rpm signal in the ECU is incorrect then you have found the source of the problem.

4JAKE

George Dalton wrote: »

I wonder has this van had a replacement engine?



To tell the difference between the engines, have a look at the crankshaft pulley, the newer type has just a single bolt in the centre of the pulley, the earlier engine has a bolt in the centre plus four smaller bolts for removing the outer part of the pulley. Most 2003 vans would be the newer type.

George i just had a look,
My Pulley has the 4 small bolts in it, the van was originally imported from the UK i beleive, its a 2003 with the newer type front.
How would i go about finding out if this is the correct engine for the van?

4JAKE

Just checked, from a completely cold start,
I have a cold idle of approx 400-450 rpm on the rev counter

George Dalton

A Peugeot dealer may be able to tell you from the chassis number. The cam and crank pulleys are different on both engines so they should be able to tell you which type was originally fitted to your van.

I used to work on loads of these vans a few years back but haven't seen as many recently so I could be wrong, however from memory I think that almost all the facelift vans had the newer engine with the floating crank pulley with just the one bolt in the centre, in which case yours could well have had the older engine and flywheel fitted.

If you remove the crank sensor from the gearbox and turn the engine over by hand I think you should be able to check pretty easily whether it has one or two lugs on it.

Do you think the rev counter is reading about half of the true revs?

4JAKE

Yes i would think about that George, to sit on the spot and foot to the Floor, it shows iirc 2250 rpm, its very loud and no way its only 2250, put it like this i wouldnt like to see it rev any higher.
On tick over as i said its showing 400-450 rpm, and to drive it compared to another van there is definitly a big difference in the Revs.

Row

Op...if you post/pm the vin (chassis) number then i can check the vans original engine number ...:)

4JAKE

That would really great, thanks for that. Where can i find the engine code on the lump?

Row

4JAKE wrote: »

That would really great, thanks for that. Where can i find the engine code on the lump?

Its right of the oil filter printed on the block.
Going by your vin number your engine number is 10 DXET 6015053

4JAKE

Got it put on Diagnostics today in a general Garage, it was showing up a fault with Pump control unit, also something aboutpin in injector or pump.
The revs coming up on computer were the same as what was showing up on the rev counter.

I asked the mechanic about the Flywheel pick ups, and he said he would have thought that the van wouldnt start if the pick ups were wrong???

He thinks it could be the BSI causing the issue with the pump and that the injector pump is giving the rev reading.
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

ljpg

4JAKE wrote: »

Got it put on Diagnostics today in a general Garage, it was showing up a fault with Pump control unit, also something aboutpin in injector or pump.
The revs coming up on computer were the same as what was showing up on the rev counter.

I asked the mechanic about the Flywheel pick ups, and he said he would have thought that the van wouldnt start if the pick ups were wrong???

He thinks it could be the BSI causing the issue with the pump and that the injector pump is giving the rev reading.
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

as i already stated in me first post,start with what you know is wrong with it!!,not what you "think" is wrong with it,the diagnostic showed up a bsi problem and you state that its been messed with so my advice is to remove it and fire it across the nearest ditch,go to peugeot and order a new one,remove the injector pump and bring to a specialist to get it reconditioned,refit new bsi and recond pump,start up the van and then see where you are,its gonna cost a right few quid but its the only way your gonna get anywhere

George Dalton

ljpg wrote: »

as i already stated in me first post,start with what you know is wrong with it!!,not what you "think" is wrong with it,the diagnostic showed up a bsi problem and you state that its been messed with so my advice is to remove it and fire it across the nearest ditch,go to peugeot and order a new one,remove the injector pump and bring to a specialist to get it reconditioned,refit new bsi and recond pump,start up the van and then see where you are,its gonna cost a right few quid but its the only way your gonna get anywhere

That is some of the worst advice I have ever read on this forum.

Solving a problem by guesswork and parts substitution almost always ends up being more time consuming and costly than a properly thought out diagnosis.

4JAKE

So i replace the BSI, Replace the pump or repair it, about 1k euro, then i still have the problem as its a pick up problem or injector problem, or maybe its the BSI thats causing it all and nothing wrong with the pump... You must have plenty of money to waist my friend, i unfortunently dont

George Dalton

4JAKE wrote: »

Got it put on Diagnostics today in a general Garage, it was showing up a fault with Pump control unit, also something aboutpin in injector or pump.
The revs coming up on computer were the same as what was showing up on the rev counter.

I asked the mechanic about the Flywheel pick ups, and he said he would have thought that the van wouldnt start if the pick ups were wrong???

He thinks it could be the BSI causing the issue with the pump and that the injector pump is giving the rev reading.
????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

You can take it from me that the van definitely will start and run with the wrong flywheel fitted. I know because I saw it happen before.

Try disconnecting the crank sensor (it's on top of the gearbox where it is bolted to the engine) and start up the van. As far as I can remember from the last one I saw the van will start and run with the crank sensor disconnected but the rev counter will not work. If this is the case then it confirms what I said about the rev counter signal coming from the crank sensor rather than the pump.

Assuming all this works out so far you now know that the crank sensor is not reading the rpm signal correctly but instead is reading only half rpm. Top of the list of reasons why this might be the case is that the flywheel has only half as many lugs on it as it should.

pred racer

ljpg wrote: »

as i already stated in me first post,start with what you know is wrong with it!!,not what you "think" is wrong with it,the diagnostic showed up a bsi problem and you state that its been messed with so my advice is to remove it and fire it across the nearest ditch,go to peugeot and order a new one,remove the injector pump and bring to a specialist to get it reconditioned,refit new bsi and recond pump,start up the van and then see where you are,its gonna cost a right few quid but its the only way your gonna get anywhere

In my trade we call this 'swaptronics' and its normally the reserve of people who dont know how to do proper diagnosis. If you have the parts handy it definately has its uses, but i wouldnt be buying anything except as a last resort, you run the risk of borking the new parts aswell if you havent found the underlying problem;)

ljpg

George Dalton wrote: »

That is some of the worst advice I have ever read on this forum.

Solving a problem by guesswork and parts substitution almost always ends up being more time consuming and costly than a properly thought out diagnosis.

and what exactly are you trying to do my friend?? solve it by guess work!!!!!it not part substitution,the bsi is as we're told showing a fault,its also been tampered with,common sense would tell ya to replace it as a matter of course

4JAKE

tbh if i could sort out the engine aspect, and if its not related to ECU, i could live with no central locking and fitting a normal stereo would probably work i think.

Bsi works out at around 500 quid programmed so its a big spend, and if its not needed to get engine running right i wont bother with it

George Dalton

ljpg wrote: »

and what exactly are you trying to do my friend?? solve it by guess work!!!!!it not part substitution,the bsi is as we're told showing a fault,its also been tampered with,common sense would tell ya to replace it as a matter of course

We are all trying to solve it by guesswork, given incomplete information via the internet we can't do anything else but guess.

Just because a part is "showing a fault" doesn't mean it is the root cause of the problem. Blindly following a code shown by a diagnostic tool is crazy, particularly when you are talking about parts as expensive as injector pumps and BSI units.

ljpg

4JAKE wrote: »

So i replace the BSI, Replace the pump or repair it, about 1k euro, then i still have the problem as its a pick up problem or injector problem, or maybe its the BSI thats causing it all and nothing wrong with the pump... You must have plenty of money to waist my friend, i unfortunently dont

sorry i actually mis read your last post that i commented on,of course replace the bsi first and then see where you are,maybe thats causing all your woes,i hope it is,you have to start somewhere,the fact that its showing a fault on the diagnostic,has been tampered with etc is what would concern me the most

ljpg

George Dalton wrote: »

That is some of the worst advice I have ever read on this forum.

Solving a problem by guesswork and parts substitution almost always ends up being more time consuming and costly than a properly thought out diagnosis.

George Dalton wrote: »

We are all trying to solve it by guesswork, given incomplete information via the internet we can't do anything else but guess.

Just because a part is "showing a fault" doesn't mean it is the root cause of the problem. Blindly following a code shown by a diagnostic tool is crazy, particularly when you are talking about parts as expensive as injector pumps and BSI units.

your last two posts a complete contradiction of each other.read the op's sixth post on the thread,no ones blindly following a code,the bsi has been took apart,parts removed for immobiliser,swapped for another one??????,the likelyhood of it working correctly are slim

ljpg

pred racer wrote: »

In my trade we call this 'swaptronics' and its normally the reserve of people who dont know how to do proper diagnosis. If you have the parts handy it definately has its uses, but i wouldnt be buying anything except as a last resort, you run the risk of borking the new parts aswell if you havent found the underlying problem;)

read the op's sixth post on thread,"swaptronics" does'nt apply...

George Dalton

ljpg wrote: »

your last two posts a complete contradiction of each other.read the op's sixth post on the thread,no ones blindly following a code,the bsi has been took apart,parts removed for immobiliser,swapped for another one??????,the likelyhood of it working correctly are slim

It's all guesswork to an extent without having the car in front of us, I would have thought that much was obvious.

The fact that the BSI has been taken apart and the immobiliser messed with could actually be seen as further evidence that the engine has been changed since the injector pumps on these are coded so if you swap in an engine complete with pump then it will not run without some messing about.

I have explained how I think the different issues are all related to the same underlying cause - namely the fact that the rpm signal the ECU is seeing is incorrect. I have put forward a guess as to why this might be the case. My theory can easily be proved or disproved without resorting to replacing expensive parts on the off chance.

Maybe you have a theory as to how the BSI could be causing the ECU to read the wrong rpm signal and/or cause the other engine running issues. If you have then post it here, we are all just trying to help the OP get the van sorted out. Saying "that part is showing a fault therefore it must be replaced" is not an adequate diagnosis unless you have something to back it up with. It is just guesswork and it is guesswork which could end up costing a lot of someone else's money for no good reason.

Row

Don't you just love boards..:D

Anyway...Like George has said already the main thing is to get the engine running correctly...disconnecting the crankshaft sensor is worth a try.

The DW8B engine are a basic idi diesel where the only immobilier is a stop solenoid on top of the injector pump.

Its obvious that there was plenty of messing around done on this van so its going to take patients,experience,time,diagnostic equipment,etc to get tru all the obstacles that the previous owner created.

4JAKE

Well first off i want to say thanks for all the help..

This evening i think we may have made progress... THINK!!!

I removed the crank sensor in box, and got a look at the flywheel, it was hard with a mirror and light but i have 2 pick ups on Flywheel, they are a risen steel pick up, almost like a woodruff key if that makes sense, i have one and other looks to be broken.. so Georges theory seems bang on the mark

George Dalton

Glad to hear you are on the right track. Hope you get it sorted out ok

4JAKE

George, where could i get a Flywheel? Most spurious i see are only dual mass, and i doubt a breaker would take one out

George Dalton

A breaker would be your best bet, they should have the engines out already so taking off the flywheel wouldn't be a big deal.