Splitting Bus Eireann?

foggy_lad

Are the management of bus Eireann/CIE thinking of splitting the bus company into two separate entities in the near future? From language used in all their recent press releases where they describe their expressway routes specifically as commercial routes are they thinking of stopping those with free travel from using these services and allowing them use only the much less frequent subsidised services?
http://www.buseireann.ie/news.php?id=1182&month=Sep

Bus Éireann has announced a new timetable on its Expressway Route 30 commercial service, operating via the M3 motorway, between Donegal, Dublin Airport and Dublin city. The revised Expressway Route 30 service will begin from 14 October 2012.
Route 30 will operate to and from Donegal to Dublin Airport/Dublin city via Ballyshannon, Belleek, Enniskillen, Bellanaleck, Derrylin, Belturbet, Butlersbride, Cavan, Virginia and then non-stop to Dublin.
Customers travelling from Donegal to Dublin should be aware that it costs as little as €23 for an adult single or day return trip and €32 for an adult monthly return. There are also special midweek, student, family and child discounts available. Free Travel Pass holders may also use the service.

they state free travel pass holders may use these services but they can remove this at any time.

If that were the case what guarantees would be in place to ensure that public money was not spent on commercial services or schools services?

bmaxi

As I see it, the only way Expressway can become a bona fide commercial service is if they conform to the rules like any other commercial service, i.e. buy their own coaches, pay their own wages, service and fuel their own vehicles etc. They can't pretend not to be a subsidised company just because they don't take free travel passes or while they rely on C.I.E. to replace and maintain their buses. With the current management, or any future management, drawn from the Public Service, they wouldn't last pissing time as a commercial entity. What they may have in mind is BE and BE Lite, can't see that going down.

bk

If BE want to go down this route, then they should be forced to split and Expressway services privatised and the bus stations put under the control of the NTA *

BE can't have their cake on eat it. They claim Expressway isn't subsidised, yet the NTA buys their coaches for them. The tax payer bought the bus stations and depots they use and of course they get to take advantage of all the subsidised back office and maintenance facilities (website, ticketing, advertising, marketing, mechanics etc.).

These are all very significant indirect subsidies. I bet any private bus company would chew their hand off to not be subsidised in this way!!

BE shouldn't be allowed to have all these unfair advantages in competing with the private operators.

* The Bus stations should be run by the NTA, who then allow fair and equal (paid for) access to all bus companies including BE, Aircoach, Citylink, etc. A bit like the DAA and airports.

kieran4003

The NTA does not buy coaches for BE Expressway, these coaches are strictly funded by BE only. There is also a strict ban on using NTA funded Commuter coaches on Expressway services. However, BE are free to use their own funded coaches on PSO services if a Commuter coach is unavailable.

There is a very clear breakdown in BE accounts between Expressway, PSO & Schools revenues & costs which may be a useful read.

It must be remembered that for many years, the profits from Expressway had to be used to subsidise PSO services as the subvention from the government was not enough.

Returning to the question of the OP, BE isnt being physically split in two. However BE want to create a greater distinction between their services and want Expressway to be able to compete with the many private services now operating. For many years, Expressway services were more like stage carraige services, stopping in every town and village. BE felt obliged to do so, but this is changing. BE is adopting a more pro active, perhaps cunning approach to these services. It can be seen on the BE website the amount of Expressway services being overhauled in the coming weeks and there are more to come.

foggy_lad

kieran4003 wrote: »

Returning to the question of the OP, BE isnt being physically split in two. However BE want to create a greater distinction between their services and want Expressway to be able to compete with the many private services now operating. For many years, Expressway services were more like stage carraige services, stopping in every town and village. BE felt obliged to do so, but this is changing. BE is adopting a more pro active, perhaps cunning approach to these services. It can be seen on the BE website the amount of Expressway services being overhauled in the coming weeks and there are more to come.

A further question if bus Eireann are dropping so many of the stops on expressway routes is who is going to service these areas now?

They are cutting back their expressway services but not replacing them with extra stage carriage services to cover the towns and villages and areas left without service like in Laois when the X8 was introduced and now in Wicklow on the route of the 002/x2.

bk

kieran4003 and what about the bus stations and depots paid for by the tax payer?

Isn't that a subsidy of Expressway services?

And are you seriously trying to say that BE have a separate mechanic, wheels, spanners, marketing departments, phone bills, IT department from Expressway services?

No, there is all sorts of sneaky little ways to give them a leg up and indirectly cross subsidise services.

This is an unfair advantage for BE in competing with the privates. If BE want to compete with the privates, then they should be forced to sell off and privatise Expressway services.

Again, they shouldn't be allowed to have the best of both worlds.

icdg

I think your putting two and two together to make five here - Bus Éireann management will not willingly split the company. That's not to say it shouldn't be split, but if it ever is, the initiative is likely to come from outside rather than within. Presumably it would require amendment of the Transport (Reorganisation of Coras Iompair Éireann) Act 1986 to do so.

kieran4003

bk wrote: »

kieran4003 and what about the bus stations and depots paid for by the tax payer?

Isn't that a subsidy of Expressway services?

And are you seriously trying to say that BE have a separate mechanic, wheels, spanners, marketing departments, phone bills, IT department from Expressway services?

No, there is all sorts of sneaky little ways to give them a leg up and indirectly cross subsidise services.

This is an unfair advantage for BE in competing with the privates. If BE want to compete with the privates, then they should be forced to sell off and privatise Expressway services.

Again, they shouldn't be allowed to have the best of both worlds.

Actually If you take Parnell Place bus station, about 85% of departures Monday - Friday are PSO services, so clearly the subsidy is well justifiable. There is no further room in Parnell Place either for additonal services, so I fail to see what benefit there would be to transfer ownership to the NTA, considering that all PSO services should leave from there.

I find these suggestions of cross subsidisation rather unusual. BE break even with PSO services after receiving the subvention. They could only subsidise Expressway if PSO was turning big profits. It is as simple as that. If there is any subdising, Expressway profits have often subsidised PSO services. Now, I wonder what private company would be willing to do that?

etchyed

bk wrote: »

kieran4003 and what about the bus stations and depots paid for by the tax payer?

Isn't that a subsidy of Expressway services?

And are you seriously trying to say that BE have a separate mechanic, wheels, spanners, marketing departments, phone bills, IT department from Expressway services?

No, there is all sorts of sneaky little ways to give them a leg up and indirectly cross subsidise services.

This is an unfair advantage for BE in competing with the privates. If BE want to compete with the privates, then they should be forced to sell off and privatise Expressway services.

Again, they shouldn't be allowed to have the best of both worlds.

bk, you've failed to acknowledge the massive error/untruth in your first post, in which you stated that the NTA bought buses for BÉ Expressway. It's important that a debate like this be based on fact, and not mindless speculation presented as fact. Use of pejorative words such as "sneaky" is also not very helpful or englightening. Even if Expressway shares admin/marketing/bus maintenance etc. with subsidised commuter services, ensuring that cross-subsidisation doesn't take place should be a relatively simple exercise in management accounting.

The fact is that you don't know how it works, and nor do I. I find it hard to understand how you've arrived at such a vociferous opinion, seemingly without any knowledge of the facts.

bk

kieran4003 no space at Parnell Place, yet they somehow magically found space for 15 extra GoBE buses per day?

Even if only 15% of buses that use Parnell Place are non PSO, then surely in order to be truly non subsidised, they should be required to pay for their use of the bus stations and all private operators should be allowed equal access at the same rates.

That would be the only way to guarantee a fair and level playing field.

Also under NTA ownership and with all companies paying for the use of bus stations, then maybe the NTA would look at expanding them. For instance there is now that large derelict ware house and land behind Parnell Place that could be developed.

Yes I agree a private company would never use profitable routes to subsidise unprofitable ones unless required to do so (which does happen in London by the way which Transport for London bunches routes together per license).

I believe all routes should be openly offered to everyone, both private and BE. I'm pretty sure that many BE subsidised routes would be grabbed by private companies. After all many BE subsidised routes are operated under contract by hired in privates. So that means both BE and the private are getting their cut. Why are we paying BE to be a middle man, cut them out and give the license direct to the private.

For routes that neither a private our BE want, then the NTA could offer a certain level of subsidy for it. Alternatively do a bunching system like in London.

In the end of the day, I believe we would end up with a level of service equal to, if not better then we currently have, while costing the tax payer less.

etchyed I admit the Expressway buses are paid for by BE. But then those Expressway buses get to sit in depot's and bus stations paid for by the tax payer.

BE have all sorts of economy of scales, from marketing and advertising, to mechanics and tires. An economy of scale they gain thanks to their subsidised services.

If BE were truly serious about Expressway not gaining any advantage then they should be truly split and that would mean:

- Expressway becomes a new separate company, can be still under CIE and semi state, but no longer a part of BE.
- New totally different name and branding, so Expressway would have to run it's own ads and wouldn't benefit from BE subsidised adds.
- Expressway required to pay for access to bus stations and depots. Private companies offered equal access at the same rates.
- Expressway has it's own website and booking platform, separate from BE.
- Expressway required to have it's own administrative, IT, mechanics, etc.
- Expressway required to buy it's own parts, tires, etc.
- Staff transferred into either BE or Expressway.

Non of this bs, accounting slight of hand we currently have, true separation. Only then would you have a true fair level playing field with the privates.