Knowing your rights - how can I make the law work for me

bogshepherd

I was recently at a house party in a college housing residence that was broken up by security at around 11pm. The door was locked and he used his master key to unlock the door and enter the residence, which we reckon violates tenancy laws. For handiness sake we left anyway but it got us thinking that we really should know our rights down to the letter so that when something like this happens we can cite the law that is in our favour.

Does anyone know of any handy laws that can help a person out in situations where security or even the guards come to break up house parties, or when you get pulled over by the guards on the road. Another thing I was thinking was how bouncers sometimes detain people until the guards arrive, is this legal for one private citizen to detain another? I feel like the guards can often make you feel like you're breaking the law or threaten you with arrest just to make you comply even if you're not technically doing anything wrong.

Paulw

A very good place to start would be - http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/home.html

You can read each act of law there, to know your rights, and know what the law allows.

Jev/N

Read your tenancy agreement for a start

davo10

College residence tenancy agreements usually prohibit excessive noise, parties and exclude non residents being on the property. Are you sure you want to start shouting about your rights?

source

Don't forget to learn about your responsibilities as a citizen too. Everyone wants to know about their rights, but very few want to know their responsibilities.

ResearchWill

Just did a search online an found a student accomodation lease the following are interesting

"The Operator and his/her representative shall be allowed access to the Apartment during emergencies or when he/she deems it necessary"

and

"The student agrees that under no circumstances will he/she at any time during the term hold or allow to be held any party, event or entertainment in the Apartment."

and

"and shall not allow to be done any act or anything which is illegal or is likely to be or become a nuisance, danger or annoyance to the operator or other occupiers of the Apartment or to adjoining occupiers and in particular not to operate the television, radio or other electrical equipment at excessive volume"

So to start with your rights read your agreement. Also one other problem with your University being your landlord not a good idea to do stupid things.

bogshepherd

davo10 wrote: »

College residence tenancy agreements usually prohibit excessive noise, parties and exclude non residents being on the property. Are you sure you want to start shouting about your rights?

Who's shouting? In fact we were more than polite to the security guard who came to the house and left without arguement as we were fully aware there were more then the allowed number of people in the apartment. Noone questioned his right to kick us out, but to kick us out he first has to enter the premises lawfully which we're not sure he did.

I also live in a nearby college apartment residence and the security guard has entered the apartment a couple of times, only to ask for information for the fire marshall, but if I'm paying rent and I'm a legal tenant then I want a person wishing to enter to knock first regardless of whether they are security or the guards. After that if I'm breaking the law by causing noise pollution or violating the tenancy agreement then thats fine and I'll accept the consequences.

ResearchWill

bogshepherd wrote: »

Who's shouting? In fact we were more than polite to the security guard who came to the house and left without arguement as we were fully aware there were more then the allowed number of people in the apartment. Noone questioned his right to kick us out, but to kick us out he first has to enter the premises lawfully which we're not sure he did.

I also live in a nearby college apartment residence and the security guard has entered the apartment a couple of times, only to ask for information for the fire marshall, but if I'm paying rent and I'm a legal tenant then I want a person wishing to enter to knock first regardless of whether they are security or the guards. After that if I'm breaking the law by causing noise pollution or violating the tenancy agreement then thats fine and I'll accept the consequences.

More than likely your agreement has this clause, "The Operator and his/her representative shall be allowed access to the Apartment during emergencies or when he/she deems it necessary" if you dont want him to be able to enter as he/she deems necessary, dont sign that agreement and request a different contract, simple.

bogshepherd

ResearchWill wrote: »

Just did a search online an found a student accomodation lease the following are interesting

"The Operator and his/her representative shall be allowed access to the Apartment during emergencies or when he/she deems it necessary"

"shall be allowed access" sounds to me like the tenant is required to give access but does that mean security can use a master key to unlock your door and enter? And no matter what you sign you can't sign away your rights so if the law says he has to knock then he has to knock regardless of what your agreement says.

The biggest problem is not knowing one way or the other, so you end up in a situation where your landlord or security can just walk all over you and cite the tenancy agreement so you feel like you can't argue. It happens to students all the time where landlords keep deposits on unlawful grounds or fail to fulfil their obligations to the tenant. For example I have heard of landlords keeping deposit money to repaint the house for next years tenants, but then I was told that legally the landlord would have to paint the house every year anyway.

ResearchWill

bogshepherd wrote: »

"shall be allowed access" sounds to me like the tenant is required to give access but does that mean security can use a master key to unlock your door and enter? And no matter what you sign you can't sign away your rights so if the law says he has to knock then he has to knock regardless of what your agreement says.

The biggest problem is not knowing one way or the other, so you end up in a situation where your landlord or security can just walk all over you and cite the tenancy agreement so you feel like you can't argue. It happens to students all the time where landlords keep deposits on unlawful grounds or fail to fulfil their obligations to the tenant. For example I have heard of landlords keeping deposit money to repaint the house for next years tenants, but then I was told that legally the landlord would have to paint the house every year anyway.

While there is a requirement that a tennant "enjoys peacful possesion" of a property, which has been interpeted as not allowing a landlord the power just to wander in at will. But in a situation of Student Accomodation the courts may or may not be so strick in their interpertation, especially where there are issues of safety.

If you think that the Landlord is over stepping the mark then by all means say so. The tennant has rights but also as another poster has stated obligations.

The relationship between landlord and tennant is very different in the College Campus situation than say in a normal apartment rental. For one thing your lanlord can be the college itself, all the other tennants are fellow students or staff, breaking the rules in your home can lead to much more than eviction, it can in serious case removal from the college.


I have never heard of any law requiring the lanlord to repaint a property every year. A landlord may be entitled to retain a deposit if he can show that the repainting is required because of more than normal wear and tear. again if a tennant is unhappy with the decision then they can complain to PRTB.

krd

Actually, this is a real pain in the arse with many young Irish people approaching adulthood.

When they were babies, Barney told them they were special. They're parents let them run wild around supermarkets. The world was their playground.

They get a little older, and drink and drugs, replace the sugary drinks. Or sometimes they mix the two. They couldn't hold their lemonade - they certainly can't manage their Fat Frogs, or Wickeds. Give them a little pill, and it's like they're six years old again, running around Tescos, screeching and pulling stock off shelves. Weeeeeeeee.....We're special....

They believe they are afforded some legal protection, that allows them to be public nuisances.

This is how kids get public order charges. The guards turn up, instead of just shutting up - zipping their gobs. They decide to argue with the garda - because these kids "know their rights". They mouth off, they jab the garda in the chest with their fingers. The guards give them loads of opportunity just to shut up - they won't. Next thing several squad cars turn up - and bang they're arrested and then up in court.


They don't understand how the world really works. It's not Tescos, they're not children. They are not special. The student accommodation security guard can get fired if he doesn't break up the party. He can also go a long way to having the students evicted if they gave him hassle. You can have little parties in these apartments, if you keep the noise down - other people are trying to sleep.

MagicSean

Lets try make it simple. You have an absolute right to be an ass. You have absolutely no right to make other people suffer you.

stringy

bogshepherd wrote: »

"shall be allowed access" sounds to me like the tenant is required to give access but does that mean security can use a master key to unlock your door and enter? .

"shall be" means "will be" in legal writing, it would say "may be" if there was some sort of further permission required.

As for your original query, I would read your rental agreement and be familiar with what you have agreed to allow the landlord/security do before attempting to enforce your rights on the next occasion.

krd

MagicSean wrote: »

Lets try make it simple. You have an absolute right to be an ass. You have absolutely no right to make other people suffer you.

Is this the Irish version of the Miranda?

..if you do make people suffer, anything you do or say maybe later used against you in a court of law...

Procrastastudy

bogshepherd wrote: »

The biggest problem is not knowing one way or the other, so you end up in a situation where your landlord or security can just walk all over you and cite the tenancy agreement so you feel like you can't argue. It happens to students all the time where landlords keep deposits on unlawful grounds or fail to fulfil their obligations to the tenant. For example I have heard of landlords keeping deposit money to repaint the house for next years tenants, but then I was told that legally the landlord would have to paint the house every year anyway.

Yes that is a problem unfortunately for every genuine case there is someone with the attitude espoused below.

bogshepherd wrote: »

Does anyone know of any handy laws that can help a person out in situations where security or even the guards come to break up house parties, or when you get pulled over by the guards on the road. Another thing I was thinking was how bouncers sometimes detain people until the guards arrive, is this legal for one private citizen to detain another? I feel like the guards can often make you feel like you're breaking the law or threaten you with arrest just to make you comply even if you're not technically doing anything wrong.

bogshepherd

krd wrote: »

They get a little older, and drink and drugs, replace the sugary drinks. Or sometimes they mix the two. They couldn't hold their lemonade - they certainly can't manage their Fat Frogs, or Wickeds. Give them a little pill, and it's like they're six years old again, running around Tescos, screeching and pulling stock off shelves. Weeeeeeeee.....We're special....

They believe they are afforded some legal protection, that allows them to be public nuisances.

Thats a massive generalisation, not to mention extremely condescending. People in college are not kids approaching adults. They are adults and like many other adults in their 20s, 30s 40s and up some of them abuse drink, drugs and break the law. I certainly don't and neither did any of my housemates.

Its because of opinions like yours that all students get thrown in the one bad category that actually only represents the actions of the minority. And as a result of this, law abiding people such as myself and my housemates get a hard time off the gardai and campus security. We don't want the law on our side to help us abuse the system or get away with causing a nuisance, we want to know it so when the guardai turn up with the opinion that we must be causing trouble just because we're students and all students are immature, anti social troublemakers, we can stand up for ourselves.

If you lived in an estate where the minority of the residents exhibited anti social behaviour, took drugs, drank excessively and had loud parties obviously you would want the gardai to come and sort them out. But you wouldn't want them knocking on your door and throwing you in to the same cell just because you lived near them. I'm sure you would want to stand up for your self and to be afforded the same rights as every other citizen in the country.

Procrastastudy

If you were not acting like children at this house party - why was it broken up? How would anyone even know it was going on unless it was causing a nuisance?

As for a minority of students causing nuisance - you're doing it wrong if at least half of you don't create some sort of nuisance out of yourselves at some point during the academic year. Just don't expect people around you to bend over because you want to act the maggot. The adult thing to do, rather than look for a loop hole, is accept what you did, apologise and move on. While you may very well be legally considered an 'adult' you'll find this is generally a major factor in being treated as such. While you're referring to 20, 30 and 40 year olds - many wouldn't be able to measure up to that standard.

tayto lover

Before you start learning the law OP you should learn a bit of manners and show a bit of respect to others.

MagicSean

Op you are confusing age with maturity. Your age doesn't dictate how you should be treated your behaviour does.

krd

bogshepherd wrote: »

Thats a massive generalisation, not to mention extremely condescending.

In a nutshell, I said you were not special. Barney the purple dinosaur lied to you. I'm sorry if you find that condescending, it's just life.

People in college are not kids approaching adults. They are adults and like many other adults in their 20s, 30s 40s and up some of them abuse drink, drugs and break the law.

The intention of campus accommodation is to provide sheltered housing for people not ready for the adult world. The security guards are babysitters.

And it's those poor minimum waged fcukers who would be the ones getting it in the neck, if some Mickey Joe from an upper-middle-class family in Sligo, gets drunk and falls out a window. Or takes an overdose and dies. Mickey Joe's parents are paying good money to see their children are well looked after - kept safe and sound - with the occasional bottom wiping.

I certainly don't and neither did any of my housemates.

Are you really so sure about that.

Its because of opinions like yours that all students get thrown in the one bad category that actually only represents the actions of the minority. And as a result of this, law abiding people such as myself and my housemates get a hard time off the gardai and campus security.

The garda only turn up if they are called - they do not cruise looking for student parties to wreck. And even when they turn up, they make a judgement call - if they think it's too much, they will ask to shut it down. It's not my opinion that makes them turn up.

The campus security patrol the campus - that's their bloody job.

We don't want the law on our side to help us abuse the system or get away with causing a nuisance, we want to know it so when the guardai turn up with the opinion that we must be causing trouble just because we're students and all students are immature, anti social troublemakers, we can stand up for ourselves.

You are an immature bunch of spoiled brats. "stand up for yourselves?". Honestly what are you on about.

But I know one thing about your type. Once, you get through university, and get a well paid job because of your membership of bolloxy classes. And then you put on a few pounds - get the big fat belly, and marry the big fat wife, at your big fat Irish wedding, and move into your middle-class estate. You'll be on the phone to the guards in a shot, the minute you see someone walking down the street you don't like the look of.

If you lived in an estate where the minority of the residents exhibited anti social behaviour, took drugs, drank excessively and had loud parties obviously you would want the gardai to come and sort them out.

There we see it.

But you wouldn't want them knocking on your door and throwing you in to the same cell just because you lived near them.

A baby ultra-right-winger. When you do it, you're just enjoying yourself - being free. But when the dirt scum are doing it, they're doing it to "excess". They need to be thrown in prison.

You wouldn't want to be thrown in a prison cell with people from a lower social class.

I'm sure you would want to stand up for your self and to be afforded the same rights as every other citizen in the country.

You and your friends are spoilt brats and bullies.

And don't give me this citizen crap.

McCrack

Krd I always enjoy your posts

bogshepherd

krd wrote: »

You and your friends are spoilt brats and bullies.

I'm sorry that you seem so offended by my post, but your assumptions about me are way off the mark as far as being spoiled or from some upper class that you mention. I won't get in to personal stuff here about myself because its completely irrelevant to the thread but let me reiterate you are wrong so let's not make it personal.

The post asks for information about the law and how you can make it work for yourself. I've walked away from confrontations with guards and campus security more times than I can count and I agree that's the mature thing to do. But I've also been on the receiving end of false accusations from residents in college estates and it's not nice when the guards turn up and side against you even when you are doing nothing wrong simply because you are a student. It is in these situations where a clear knowledge of the law can be useful and that is why I sought out the information. Not for loopholes to help break that law or to help cause trouble for anyone else.

Procrastastudy

bogshepherd wrote: »

I've walked away from confrontations with guards and campus security more times than I can count and I agree that's the mature thing to do.

If you're getting yourself into this much trouble perhaps your behavior needs looking at. I was fairly badly behaved as a student and I could certainly count how many times I had a run in with the police or people on campus.

bogshepherd

Procrastastudy wrote: »

If you're getting yourself into this much trouble perhaps your behavior needs looking at.

This thread isn't about me. It's about information.

Paulw

bogshepherd wrote: »

This thread isn't about me. It's about information.

Well, at this stage, you have been given plenty of information. Your "friend" would need to check their lease, but in general, if there is noise or a disturbance, then security have a right and a duty to put an end to it.

Del2005

bogshepherd wrote: »

The post asks for information about the law and how you can make it work for yourself. I've walked away from confrontations with guards and campus security more times than I can count and I agree that's the mature thing to do. But I've also been on the receiving end of false accusations from residents in college estates and it's not nice when the guards turn up and side against you even when you are doing nothing wrong simply because you are a student. It is in these situations where a clear knowledge of the law can be useful and that is why I sought out the information. Not for loopholes to help break that law or to help cause trouble for anyone else.

The Gardaí, and in most cases security, don't turn up for the fun of it someone has complained about your party and people who have better things to be doing now have to come and tell you to keep it down. There are real crimes being committed while you want to stand around being a pr**k arguing with the Gardaí about this law and that law.

The easiest way to know the law is to keep the noise down and never have to deal with it.

I find it ironic that your complaining about college estates, would the person making the complaint not be a student also? You must be making some racket to get students to complain as they are all lazy.....

Reloc8

bogshepherd wrote: »

The post asks for information about the law and how you can make it work for yourself. act the maggot and get away with it

The law is not like the force. You are in fact the droids they are looking for.

Procrastastudy

Reloc8 wrote: »

The law is not like the force. You are in fact the droids they are looking for.

Funny how people think that it is. Myself included I guess. One of our lecturers managed to get on to the subject of how she'd been treated badly by BA (by way of Parker v British Airways in case anyone is bored enough to care). I think it destroyed a few peoples delusions that you would just declare 'I'm a Barrister' and would immediately be upgraded to first class and treated like royalty.

krd

Procrastastudy wrote: »

I think it destroyed a few peoples delusions that you would just declare 'I'm a Barrister' and would immediately be upgraded to first class and treated like royalty.

There are people who will toady, bend and scrape, to anyone they believe is from the upper-classes. They think they might get something out of it.

If I'm in a customer service role, and you try the "upstairs downstairs" thing with me, you will find yourself entering a world of pain. The Hyacinth Bucket behaviour usually back fires.

In a particular job, I would get the occasionally barrister - angry of course (as were all our customers). They would threaten to sue, all cocky and sure of themselves. And I would calmly ask, in the unhurried voice of a man who knows your gun is not loaded, "have you read....our.... licencing agreement?"

Then I'd read the relevant sections in a slightly mocking sing song. I had them memorised. Barristers weren't too bad, in fact. They knew when they were beaten.

Procrastastudy

krd wrote: »

There are people who will toady, bend and scrape, to anyone they believe is from the upper-classes. They think they might get something out of it.

If I'm in a customer service role, and you try the "upstairs downstairs" thing with me, you will find yourself entering a world of pain. The Hyacinth Bucket behaviour usually back fires.

In a particular job, I would get the occasionally barrister - angry of course (as were all our customers). They would threaten to sue, all cocky and sure of themselves. And I would calmly ask, in the unhurried voice of a man who knows your gun is not loaded, "have you read....our.... licencing agreement?"

Then I'd read the relevant sections in a slightly mocking sing song. I had them memorised. Barristers weren't too bad, in fact. They knew when they were beaten.

I should stress said lecturer would never try anything of the kind and very likely never mentioned she was a barrister.

Tom Young

Any tool who declares, or feels the need to openly declare their professional credentials in such a manner drags their profession in to disrepute.

It's not advisable or indeed smart.

Most amicable settlements with retail agents, vendors, suppliers are achieved by polite discourse before the need to get all shirty and aggressive with your legal arsenal (most practitioners probably wouldn't know what their rights would be there and then anyway).

Further, it is an offence to pretend to be a solicitor in Ireland (doesn't apply to Barristers, but you could be caught in other ways).

To make the law work for you, read it, understand it, respect it, uphold it and never compromise your standards. Ever.