Are we an example of democracy failing?

Red Crow

Is our government simply too afraid to make the cuts where they are most necessary becuase they are afraid they will be chucked out like the last generation of Fianna Failers? I think the big decisions that need to be made on Public Sector expenditure aren't simply being made and finding only €3.5 Million in cuts just simply isn't good enough. What about our bloated social welfare system? We all know there isn't going to be any significant cuts made to an abused and attractive welfare system. If the Government were to take the right option and start making significant cuts they would be voted out straight away. Everybody is looking out for themselves and we have created a divide that is unsustainable where everybody that pays into the system gets nothing out of it and everybody that contributes nothing to the system gets everything out of it.

How many people know somebody who won't work more than a specific number of days every week becuase it will effect their dole or they may lose their medical card? How many people out there are not taking up work because it simply isn't in their best interests to do so? And who'd blame them? Why should they lose money when not working actually pays more. What a ridiculous situation we have gotten ourselves into.

If we were a business we would of been liquidated long ago and all records of our embarrasing existence would be burnt. Every year we hear of massive cuts yet all we see is the same people hit and the loss of a few tax credits, your packet of Marlboro Lights goes up by €0.50 and an increase in your Motor Tax.

They cut the third level grants this year and I imagine thats a few less bottles of bud sold but what do the government care students don't really vote anyway. They know disgruntled public sector workers and people on the social welfare will vote them out and that's why they won't cut either to any great effect in proportion.

Are we trapped in a failed system? Is the Government too afraid to make the right decisions in an act of self-preservation?

Let's not forget Fine Gael hadn't a clue either and called out for years at the top of their voices that we wen't spending enough during the boom years.

Are we a failed democracy or do we just have spineless politicans?

Cookie_Monster

Democracy in Ireland does not work because the only consideration any politician or party has is getting re-elected.

Sindri

We could restrict the amount of times politicians can run for office consecutively?

Chuck Stone

Sindri wrote: »

We could restrict the amount of times politicians can run for office consecutively?

That might help.

Politicians wouldn't obsess so much about getting re-elected by their constituents and might actually look at the bigger picture and/or the long term.

A cap on being a career politician might also dissuade intergenerational political dynasties forming.

2011

Someone famous once said:

"The problem with democracy is that most people are stupid"

Memnoch

Oh irony, sweet irony.

The reason we are failing as a democracy is not because the politicians are too beholden to the public and therefore unable to make 'tough' decisions. Rather they are too beholden to the plutocrats and too often take 'easy' decisions to punish a powerless electorate for the greed of a few who continue to live in ultimate luxury while the rest of us pay for it.

But congratulations for buying, hook, line and sinker, the propaganda that inflicting further hardship on ordinary people is the solution to the problem created by the unmitigated greed of the powerful few.

Zulu

Memnoch wrote: »

But congratulations for buying, hook, line and sinker, the propaganda that inflicting further hardship on ordinary people is the solution to the problem created by the unmitigated greed of the powerful few.

If cutting our expenses to match our earnings isn't the solution, then what is the solution, pray tell?

Memnoch

Zulu wrote: »

If cutting our expenses to match our earnings isn't the solution, then what is the solution, pray tell?

Increase taxes on corporations and the wealthy as part of a federated Europe. Work with democratic governments around the world to standardise these tax rates. Hit Tax Havens with heavy sanctions.

Net result, the wealthy elite can no longer threaten us to simply 'take there business elsewhere.' If they want to sell their products to Europeans then they must pay a fair share of taxes on their profits and they must manufacture these products without exploiting human beings through economic slavery.

Use the extra revenue to fund social mobility by investing in health, education and infrastructure.

Please note the following study by the non-partisan Congressional Research Office of the United States.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/news/business/0915taxesandeconomy.pdf

The results of the analysis suggest that changes over the past 65 years in the top marginal tax rate and the top capital gains tax rate do not appear correlated with economic growth. The reduction in the top tax rates appears to be uncorrelated with saving, investment, and productivity growth. The top tax rates appear to have little or no relation to the size of the economic pie.

However, the top tax rate reductions appear to be associated with the increasing concentration of income at the top of the income distribution.

Zulu

Memnoch wrote: »

Increase taxes on corporations and the wealthy as part of a federated Europe. Work with democratic governments around the world to standardise these tax rates. Hit Tax Havens with heavy sanctions.

So in short, "while Rome burns" Ireland should work with the rest of the world on Global policies.

Yeah that seems like a prompt, reasonable and viable solution to our own current problematic budget deficit.

You'll have to excuse my ignorance if I'd rather sort out the more pressing issues first; there's little good redesigning the life-jacket while the man drowns.

Memnoch

Zulu wrote: »

So in short, "while Rome burns" Ireland should work with the rest of the world on Global policies.

Yeah that seems like a prompt, reasonable and viable solution to our own current problematic budget deficit.

And at what point should we stop being short-sighted and myopic? At what point do we simply stop trying to put out fire after fire and dealing with simply the symptoms? At what point do we actually stop to address the broader underlying problems that repeatedly cause these problems?

I reject the idea that the solution is to simply allow the very very rich to get a lot richer while telling everyone else to tighten their belts and force ordinary people to remain grist for the mill while denying them even the opportunity to work their way up to a more prosperous future for themselves and their families.

In the US the Bush government used the fear of Islamic terrorism to launch two wars which apart from their human cost has been financial catastrophe for the American people (though not ultra-wealthy American corporations such as weapons manufacturers and other members of the military industrial complex.)

While over here the fear of financial armageddon is used to pacify us plebs and tell us we need to toughen up and bear it because, 'Rome is burning.'

martomcg

Memnoch wrote: »

Increase taxes on corporations and the wealthy as part of a federated Europe. Work with democratic governments around the world to standardise these tax rates. Hit Tax Havens with heavy sanctions.

Net result, the wealthy elite can no longer threaten us to simply 'take there business elsewhere.' If they want to sell their products to Europeans then they must pay a fair share of taxes on their profits and they must manufacture these products without exploiting human beings through economic slavery.

Use the extra revenue to fund social mobility by investing in health, education and infrastructure.

Please note the following study by the non-partisan Congressional Research Office of the United States.

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/news/business/0915taxesandeconomy.pdf

Sorry but this is ridiculous. What would be stopping these large companies just leaving europe altogether and opening up in Asia where the labour force costs a fraction of what it does here.

Without the low corporation tax here Ireland has got nothing to offer these companies. If our wages and tax were in line with the rest of Europe then why would any company locate on a small island on the outskirts of the EU as apposed to in, say, Germany which has a much better infrastructure and land ties to all the other major EU countries?!

Memnoch

martomcg wrote: »

Sorry but this is ridiculous. What would be stopping these large companies just leaving europe altogether and opening up in Asia where the labour force costs a fraction of what it does here.

Without the low corporation tax here Ireland has got nothing to offer these companies. If our wages and tax were in line with the rest of Europe then why would any company locate on a small island on the outskirts of the EU as apposed to in, say, Germany which has a much better infrastructure and land ties to all the other major EU countries?!

Read my post again.

They can leave Europe if they want, but then they will not be able to sell their products to European consumers.

If they want to sell products here, they must pay fair taxes on the profits made by selling them here.

P.S. They are ALREADY exporting every job that they possibly can to Asia.

martomcg

Memnoch wrote: »

Read my post again.

They can leave Europe if they want, but then they will not be able to sell their products to European consumers.

If they want to sell products here, they must pay fair taxes on the profits made by selling them here.

P.S. They are ALREADY exporting every job that they possibly can to Asia.

Thats all good in theory but not how the world works. Companies pay taxes in the countries their headquaters are based in and thats it.

So we should make China pay tax to the EU for all the products they sell here? In theory you might have a good idea, but in practice it will never happen.

JustinDee

Eli Manning wrote: »

Are we a failed democracy or do we just have spineless politicans?

How is it a failed democracy? People were free to borrow to the hilt during the boom years. Nobody forced them to go beyond their means, receiving 100% loans or paying back over 30+ years. In doing so, they also contributed to bloating the bubble and the subsequent falling flat on its keyster.

I think there is a sense of entitlement that is a problem across this country. That coupled with the fact that Paddy doesn't like being told what to do is just as big a problem as any perceived inadequacy at government level.

Just my view. No doubt some genius will bring countries like Norway into the argument under the delusion that they compare and exemplify.

Zulu

Memnoch wrote: »

And at what point should we stop being short-sighted and myopic?

I'd say just after we've finished addressing the squander of the public finances. Around the same time the budget is no longer running a massive deficit.

Memnoch

martomcg wrote: »

Thats all good in theory but not how the world works. Companies pay taxes in the countries their headquaters are based in and thats it.

So we should make China pay tax to the EU for all the products they sell here? In theory you might have a good idea, but in practice it will never happen.

The reason the world doesn't work this way is because the wealthy elite don't want it to work this way and because people like yourself buy into the propaganda that it cannot be changed.

It can and should be changed (though it will not be EASY), and the first step is HERE, to have THIS conversation and to say that NO, we will no longer tolerate the status quo that allows 0.1% of the worlds population to hoard for their own benefit the vast majority of the world's resources and to exploit the majority of the world's population.

Memnoch

Zulu wrote: »

I'd say just after we've finished addressing the squander of the public finances. Around the same time the budget is no longer running a massive deficit.

Chicken meet egg.

I reject the idea that the problem can be blamed entirely on public finance.

No.

The problem is the deregulation at the behest of the financial industry.

The problem is the Irish tax payer blackmailed into paying billions to private shareholders.

The problem is a global class war that has resulted in the hoarding of resources and tax cuts for the wealthiest to allow them to get richer and richer while everyone else struggles for scraps.

I reject your unfair and punitive 'solution.'

Zulu

You're welcome to.

I reject your proposal that our own state should not attempt to balance the books.

JustinDee

Memnoch wrote: »

The reason the world doesn't work this way is because the wealthy elite don't want it to work this way and because people like yourself buy into the propaganda that it cannot be changed.

It can and should be changed (though it will not be EASY), and the first step is HERE, to have THIS conversation and to say that NO, we will no longer tolerate the status quo that allows 0.1% of the worlds population to hoard for their own benefit the vast majority of the world's resources and to exploit the majority of the world's population.

Compared to some, you would be considered "wealthy elite". It is all relative and highly subjective in a society where everyone is striving to gain the most that they can for themselves. This ideal of an Utopian society where everyone contributes to everyone else is what fails. Not the other way around.
Ignoring the complicity of Joe Soap as well as Lord Soap doesn't make for a credible argument, particularly when rounded off with some of the rhetoric above. Not everything involves conspiracy to exploit. It would be fair to say the perceived "exploitation" tends to be kept afloat by willful participation.

Memnoch

Zulu wrote: »

You're welcome to.

I reject your proposal that our own state should not attempt to balance the books.

I didn't say we shouldn't balance the books. But I don't accept that the books should be balanced on the backs of the majority of the proletariat and those who are in greatest need while allowing the ultra wealthy to get off scott free.

JustinDee

Memnoch wrote: »

I didn't say we shouldn't balance the books. But I don't accept that the books should be balanced on the backs of the majority of the proletariat and those who are in greatest need while allowing the ultra wealthy to get off scott free.

Who are the ultra wealthy getting off scot-free? Does the increased contribution you talk about solve the problem of this country's finances? Why should richer folk pay higher tax in a country full of people striving to become more wealthy, secure or affluent?

There isn't a country out there whose government can control through legislation, the absolute entirety of funds people make. In fact, Ireland has benefitted from tax-orientated business practice as well as lost out. Look at Intel's investment here, for example. Where do you draw the line on them? They are set up as they are, outside their own country, for tax purposes and in this process have virtually changed the region (North Kildare/West Dublin) for the better since the late 1980s. And it doesn't stop there. They're building another FAB on the plant in Leixlip, thus increasing their workforce by another 9,000. Do you think they should feck off back home or elsewhere and pay their dues? If not, surely this is non-fitting to your ideal society? Then there is IBM, Google, PayPal, the Pharma industry, IKEA . . . etc etc

Lantus

Problems?????

Therer are 2 macro problems. Firstly the monetary system which we have been using for thousands of years activley encourages inequality, greed and the priority of profit above people and environment.

Secondly, the democractic system isn't really giving us a choice. Candidates from the mainly two very well established parties decide which people we will vote for and submit them to us for approval. These people ensure the continued re-election of the party and the status quo ensuring them referencial advantage in terms of wealth and power rather than promoting problem solvers that will resolve society's problems.

Its a shame that most people in society have been brought up never to question these two fundementals. Its really no different to say 500 years ago when people accepted rule by the king annointed by God without question.

Today we have just about developed the technology to enable us to adopt better ideas and systems to ensure a happier and fairer society. What we are in now is the transition period.

The biggest opposition to change wont be from the people but from the established power base, political parties and those who have the most to lose from a society that doesn't offer them a preferencial advantage at the expense of others.

Zulu

Memnoch wrote: »

I didn't say we shouldn't balance the books.

...but you don't agree we should cut expenditure to do this.

But I don't accept that the books should be balanced on the backs of the majority of the proletariat and those who are in greatest need while allowing the ultra wealthy to get off scott free.

Tax the rich!

"congratulations for buying, hook, line and sinker, the propaganda that" SF and the SP like to spout. Would even confiscating the wealth of the rich in Ireland sort out our problems? Probably not.

So it's back to: how do you propose WE in IRELAND balance our books without cuts? Oh yea, I forgot, the "Global Class war": it's not our fault we're over spending...

I reject your 'solution' as burying your head in the sand. Failure to act on our own faults is not going to fix this problem.

seamus

The problem with democracy in Ireland is that many people don't understand how it works. They vote in a Government and then instantly start complaining about them.

There's also still a flawed idea in this country that the government of the day are a form of dictatorship, hence the moronic idea of "protest votes" in a referendum or complaining that something must be wrong about a decision which reduces your pay. There seems to be a subset of the electorate who is under the impression that if every decision doesn't result in direct benefit to the individual, then the government are doing it wrong.

This is how we continually end up voting in idiots when the times are good, and unstable coalitions when the times are bad.

A system which prevented someone from being continually re-elected could work, but I don't know what the knock-on effect might be. In some cases politicans might go in on very specific and limited portfolios, seeking to yield short term results without any consideration for the long term.
At the same time, it might work to fundamentally discourage people from becoming career politicians and instead make it more vocational, bringing in more candidates whose primary interest is doing the right thing.

SunDog

A democracy is always temporary in nature; it simply cannot exist as a permanent form of government. A democracy will continue to exist up until the time that voters discover that they can vote themselves generous gifts from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates who promise the most benefits from the public treasury, with the result that every democracy will finally collapse due to loose fiscal policy, which is always followed by a dictatorship. The average age of the world's greatest civilizations from the beginning of history has been about 200 years. During those 200 years, these nations always progressed through the following sequence:
From bondage to spiritual faith;
From spiritual faith to great courage;
From courage to liberty;
From liberty to abundance;
From abundance to complacency;
From complacency to apathy;
From apathy to dependence;
From dependence back into bondage.

"
-H. W. Prentis

Memnoch

Zulu wrote: »

...but you don't agree we should cut expenditure to do this.

I don't mind cutting expenditure to a point. I think some of the social welfare net could be reformed to encourage work while still helping those in genuine need such as the sick/disabled/elderly. But I don't agree with wholesale cuts. I would rather we had burned the bondholders long ago, but that was not a practical option since as a result of the economic collapse we needed the money to keep the country afloat and the price for that loan was that we were blackmailed into taking on the debts.

I think for now we should continue with a certain amount of deficit spending. Enact public sector reforms to improve efficiency (this does not necessarily mean pay cuts) but more accountability and the ability to fire people who aren't doing their job etc.

But I don't agree that we can cut our way out of a recession. Corporations don't act in isolation in one country they spread across nations and continents. Corporations also band together to form lobby groups to pressure governments and bribe (fund campaigns of) politicians. So to try to think that we as a small nation of 3 million people can take them on and implement the fixes on our own is not realistic.

I think we have to begin working towards the long term solutions in line of what I proposed above, because Ireland unilaterally increasing taxes won't work.

Meanwhile, I think we have to accept a certain level of deficit spending to maintain public services. I do not think it justifiable to punish the ordinary people of this country for the missteps and failures of others, including corrupt and gullible politicians.

Jonny7

Memnoch wrote: »

I reject the idea that the solution is to simply allow the very very rich to get a lot richer while telling everyone else to tighten their belts and force ordinary people to remain grist for the mill while denying them even the opportunity to work their way up to a more prosperous future for themselves and their families.

Ah blame the rich. I see plenty of people driving Mercs and BMW's around, most work hard, are they evil or to blame somehow?

What's your solution, adopt some hypothetical form of communism that doesn't work? mass hypothetical regulation across the world? steal all the "evil rich peoples" money and give it to the poor?

In the US the Bush government used the fear of Islamic terrorism to launch two wars which apart from their human cost has been financial catastrophe for the American people (though not ultra-wealthy American corporations such as weapons manufacturers and other members of the military industrial complex.)

Congratulations for being the one billionth person to point this out at least 10 times. We know. Sometimes a country has a bad administration - again, your solution to this? build a time machine, go back and get Al Gore in? install a communist system?

While over here the fear of financial armageddon is used to pacify us plebs and tell us we need to toughen up and bear it because, 'Rome is burning.'

aaand more exaggerated crusty rhetoric We're in a recession, mostly of our own making, economies will recover - there's not something fundamentally "broken" with the system, it just needs to be constantly fine-tuned, we learn by mistake.. slowly.

Slurryface

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Democracy in Ireland does not work because the only consideration any politician or party has is getting re-elected.

That is and always will be the problem with democracy, it is based on populism, even Plato recognised that.

Fromthetrees

Democracy is the least worst option, we could start making our democracy better (less bad) by making local politicians sort out local issues and national politicians sort out national issues, that is not the case now but it should be done immediately. It seems like an obvious solution to a lot of the insanity we get with the parish pump, what other country on the planet would you find the minister for health personally sorting out medical cards for people on an individual basis.

Dannyboy83

'Governance of this state has moved from Dail Eireann to RTE, where the real Taoiseach David Begg announced that certain public service allowances could go - this, just a few days after the poor hapless minister Brendan Howlin had concluded that only one of these 1,100 perks could be scrapped.

The Begg initiative is shrewd tactics, because a review of the allowances (he says) would take years. Simplest, then, to absorb the allowances into pay: thus obduracy masquerades as reason. Brilliant - and confirmation that whereas all governments live beyond their means, governments controlled by public-service unions live beyond their grandchildren's. We are riding for a terrible fall, and only the anti-gravitational delusions created by this bizarre cult of tomorrowism could have blinded government ministers and their trade union bosses to this certainty.'

Kevin Myers

Probably too early to tell

Eggy Baby!

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Democracy in Ireland does not work because the only consideration any politician or party has is getting re-elected.

But isn't that a feature of a democracy?


Just to clarify, Ireland is a representative democracy, which sets it apart from a pure democracy. People elect representatives to make their decisions. With this comes a whole host of problems. But regardless of this, its significantly better than the democratic funzones that are China/Chad/Eritrea/Saudi Arabia et al

imme

I think you need to define your point OP,
democracy or cigarettes?

What is "democracy", that you talk about, you could debate that for hours.

In relation to FG saying that we we're spending enough in the Tiger years,

here's little Richard in the 2006 Budget speech in Dec'05:

"We need to examine what needs to be done to proof ourselves against changing and hardening external environments. No one can have illusions about the change that has happened in the external environment in which Ireland seeks to compete."

2007 Budget speech:

"The Government has doubled its dependence on the construction sector to support its revenue. A total of 25% of every tax euro spent by the Government comes from the construction sector. We are not in a strong position; we are, in fact, in a vulnerable position."


2005 speech in Dec'04:

"There is a worrying complacency in Government about the enterprise sector. Few people realise that in the past four years, employment in the exposed sector of our economy has been in sharp decline. The rate of job losses has been more than double that of the mid-90s.
We are facing a tough time in export markets. Since May 2002, export prices have fallen by 15%. Companies trading and competing have had to tighten their costs by 15% but the utilities, stealth taxes, rates and all the other burdens the State puts on those companies have increased by 27%. There is no tightening of belts when it comes to those delivering those services but the companies which have to compete in export markets are feeling the squeeze. Companies are leaving these shores to go to cheaper environments. "

hyperborean

Democracy cant fail! A failure to apply correct democratic principles is a different thing and the failure is in that.

Belfast

Ireland is not only only country with a democracy that over spends and borrows.

Democracies tend to elect governments that spend more money than they can raise it taxes and who are unwilling to cut spending.

even if they could raise taxes enough to balance the budget it woild not last long as they would son increase spending again beond what taxes could support.

Like even if they could raise taxes enough to balance the budget.
Like Wilkins Micawber (Dickens) there will always spend more than they earn.

Micawber Principle
"Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen pounds nineteen and six, result happiness. Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery."

Belfast

seamus wrote: »

The problem with democracy in Ireland is that many people don't understand how it works. They vote in a Government and then instantly start complaining about them.

There's also still a flawed idea in this country that the government of the day are a form of dictatorship, hence the moronic idea of "protest votes" in a referendum or complaining that something must be wrong about a decision which reduces your pay. There seems to be a subset of the electorate who is under the impression that if every decision doesn't result in direct benefit to the individual, then the government are doing it wrong.

This is how we continually end up voting in idiots when the times are good, and unstable coalitions when the times are bad.

A system which prevented someone from being continually re-elected could work, but I don't know what the knock-on effect might be. In some cases politicans might go in on very specific and limited portfolios, seeking to yield short term results without any consideration for the long term.
At the same time, it might work to fundamentally discourage people from becoming career politicians and instead make it more vocational, bringing in more candidates whose primary interest is doing the right thing.

sound like Term limits for politicians.
Like the American president can only serve 2 terms.

Son Of A Vidic

JustinDee wrote: »

Nobody forced them to go beyond their means, receiving 100% loans or paying back over 30+ years.

Oh if only it were that simple, I was lucky to be in a position to have very good savings which reduced the size of the mortgage I needed.

Yet the BOI

were nearly insisting that I take out a 100% mortgage with them.

The AIB

put a €80,000 higher valuation on the house and then offered me a 100% mortgage. Which was basically an €80,000 incentive to go with them instead.

The BOI

were then going to 'review the price upward', once they realised they had competition. Thankfully I stuck to my guns and rejected all their little tricks. Sadly, many people didn't, they were totally fooled and swallowed the con of such enticements. So were they forced? No. But were many tricked, fooled, misled, conned and cajoled during one of the biggest and most stressful decisions in their life? Absolutely yes.

lightspeed

The problem is that the majority of people are proned to hypocrisy and corruption when it is in their interests. Take the children allowance for example.
The majority of people who actually vote in this country are the middle and upper class. Despite the fact that the children allowance is far too high there is little appetite for reform. Why?
Because the lower class are not the only ones who benifit. the people in the middle and upper class bracket dont want the gravy train to end either because they are also benifiting from this inefficient corrupt entitlement system. Its the same reason why are politicians and tv presenters are paid more in this country than they are in the USA.

Lantus

talking about democracy or politics inevitably leads in very short order to the discussion or issue of wealth and the monetary system. Most of our problems stem from this outdated and unhealthy method of controlling the abundance of resources on our planet. Politics today in a western world is ensuring preferencial advantage to as many people voting as possible (or at least promising so) so as to maintain a position of influence and power for the promisee.

For all humans alive today who have been born into a world where money is simply taken for granted and ued by everyone in virtuall yevery country it is almost unthinkable that the existing system should be challenged in any way at all. It is accepted as a constant. All alternative solutions include it and attempt to reshape it, no one says "in a technological society we can do without a monetary system, we have outgrown it."

But then for over 1000 years no one thought to challenge the rule of the king or the monarchy in Ireland.

JustinDee

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

Oh if only it were that simple, I was lucky to be in a position to have very good savings which reduced the size of the mortgage I needed.

Yet the BOI

were nearly insisting that I take out a 100% mortgage with them.

The AIB

put a €80,000 higher valuation on the house and then offered me a 100% mortgage. Which was basically an €80,000 incentive to go with them instead.

The BOI

were then going to 'review the price upward', once they realised they had competition. Thankfully I stuck to my guns and rejected all their little tricks. Sadly, many people didn't, they were totally fooled and swallowed the con of such enticements. So were they forced? No. But were many tricked, fooled, misled, conned and cajoled during one of the biggest and most stressful decisions in their life? Absolutely yes.

It still comes down to the decision of the borrower at the end of the day. If you can't make an honestly informed and responsible decision when dealing with thousands of Euro, then don't expect any form of stability or surety.
"Sadly, many people" went for the package of second, bigger, overseas or normally out-of-reach properties, vehicles, marine craft, household staff, nannies, extra credit cards etc etc.

C14N

Memnoch wrote: »

Increase taxes on corporations and the wealthy as part of a federated Europe. Work with democratic governments around the world to standardise these tax rates. Hit Tax Havens with heavy sanctions.

Wait, isn't this what we keep getting warned about each time there's an EU referendum? I always hear from one side "France and Germany will increase our corporate taxes and send every major employer away". Ireland is a tax haven, our low taxes are the reason massive companies invest here and employ thousands of people. If the taxes are standardised then what motivation do any of them have to hang around here for?

Memnoch wrote: »

Please note the following study by the non-partisan Congressional Research Office of the United States.

Bearing in mind that this is in relation to the US, a country with far lower tax rates than almost any European country, especially on the financial elite.

Memnoch wrote: »

They can leave Europe if they want, but then they will not be able to sell their products to European consumers.

And what if they say "feck it, Europe is too much hassle, we'll just stick to the free economies in Asia and America"? Now we're left basically returned to medieval times with no major consumer technologies because if anyone wants to sell here they will have to pay what you deem "fair" taxation (which I have no doubt is much higher than in other continents).

What if even major European business just packed their stuff up and left? I can't imagine if I ever had a great idea for a company that I thought would be huge I would start it up here instead of somewhere else with this new high-tax system.

Memnoch wrote: »

P.S. They are ALREADY exporting every job that they possibly can to Asia.

"Every job they can" being every job that it's worth it to export. They still keep the professional jobs around because they're worth leaving here. Pushing high-tech employers away with high taxes could easily just finish the job.

Memnoch wrote: »

So to try to think that we as a small nation of 3 million people can take them on and implement the fixes on our own is not realistic.

We're a nation of 4.6 million. Not that it makes much difference but I'm surprised anyone with so much to say on Irish politics thinks the population is two-thirds of what it actually is.


Regarding OP:

I feel there is a huge problem with Irish democracy (although this is probably not specific to Ireland), not only because of the system of "everyone look after your own area and try to get back in yet again" but because of what is basically a 2-3 party system of power that we have. The two traditionally largest parties have been Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil, two centrist parties that are hard to tell apart in terms of policies. Labour can get thrown in there too now but they're only a little more leftist than FG.

What this system of traditional party dominance means is that when we get a bad government, we basically turn to the other party. We tend not to give them any credit either and then revert to the previous party. If one is lucky then they might get a successful spell and stay around for a few terms but it won't be good forever and we just switch to the other.

It's incredibly difficult to get any new ideas or people who just think completely outside the box when this is how it works. At the very least you would think this would result in a lack of divisiveness but everything related to politics in the media or online is still a bitchfest where everyone thinks they and only they know how to do it right. Anyone see the comments under Kenny's time interview about how he's destroying the country and he's a terrible leader etc.? We've got nobody else to turn to either because despite everybody complaining about how all of FF/FG and Labour are a load of gob****es, they seem to be the only ones who have any idea at all.

I've never heard a single thing from a Sinn Fein member that leads me to believe they have any idea how basic economics work, same goes for the United Left Alliance and ever since the EU referenda I have to believe the Socialist Party and the Worker's Party have no respect for voters at all.

There are some independents who have some interesting ideas each time but even on the off-chance that they get in, what can they do?

So what can I do? I can vote for Fine Gael, Labour or Fianna Fail and regardless of who wins, I won't feel like it's made much more difference than which colour socks I chose to wear that day.

Gbear

Corvus Maximus wrote: »

So were they forced? No. But were many tricked, fooled, misled, conned and cajoled during one of the biggest and most stressful decisions in their life? Absolutely yes.

Then you're back to the "the problem with Democracy is how stupid the people are" problem again.



It is democracy's greatest strength and greatest weakness that everyone has an equal voice in elections.
If you take that away you could move away from the short-termism, the parochial politics and career politicians being the only politicians (rather than engineers, scientists, etc) but you could also get tyranny. In fact given human nature, the latter seems far more likely.

All we can do is make people less stupid by educating them. That's a long slow process and it's difficult to stop people being stupid in the correct areas so that they can vote long term and not get fed horse**** by politicians.

That there seems to be a trend of social liberalisation in "the West" bodes well at least.