Croker Traffic-Management Plan

AlekSmart

It seems that the famed Garda/GAA/DCC "Traffic Management Plan" for major events at Croke Park finally came unstuck thanks to the Donegal/Mayo contest on Sunday.

For the first time in my experience the Gardai were forced to bow to the inevitable and admit they had no effective crowd control procedures in place.

What resulted was the complete closure of streches of Dorset Street/Drumcondra which then resulted in the diversion of all Bus Routes using it to the four winds.

Equally interesting was the effectivity of the Phibsboro corridor which was remarkably clear as far as Hart's Corner,something which should now be noted for future events.

The sheer imbicility of pretending that Public Transport can serve Croke Park on Big Match Days has finally been exposed for what it is...a dangerous sham.

Mind you,that's little consolation for the many Drumcondra bound non-GAA customers who had to hoof-it from Parnell Square whether they liked it or not.

Busdrivers were not surprisingly the target of substantial anger and (in my own case) questions such as "Whats the problem,driver...is there something going on ..?"...I find it difficult at times like that to maintain a straight face and composure as literally thousands of wild-eyed panic stricken folks stream past heading for Croker.....:rolleyes:

However,it would indeed be of great benefit to ALL if the various "Agencies" could now get together firstly to apologise to those who were left stranded,perhaps en-route to catch a Flight at the Airport (:().

Having thus apologised,the same "Agencies" might then outline what the "Plan" will be for future events in order to allow people to prepare and plan their own responses....

No amount of RTPI/AVL or whatever,can work without proper fit-for-purpose planning....not the seat-of-the-pants stuff displayed on Sunday !!

Valetta

People should take responsibility and plan their own journeys in advance.

It is blindingly obvious that a crowd of 80,000 plus is going to have a major effect on traffic in the area.

Kumsheen

Valetta wrote: »

People should take responsibility and plan their own journeys in advance.

It is blindingly obvious that a crowd of 80,000 plus is going to have a major effect on traffic in the area.

Would tourists heading back out to the Airport to get a flight know about this?

Valetta

Kumsheen wrote: »

Would tourists heading back out to the Airport to get a flight know about this?

I would have thought so. Anyone around town on Friday or Saturday could hardly fail to notice that there was a major event coming up.

It is common sense to check timings for travel to the airport and any possible delays. I know I always do when abroad.

LXFlyer

I think that is assuming an awful lot to be honest.

Many tourists would not be aware of major sporting events, or where they are taking place. How many of them would necessarily be aware of where Croke Park is?

Cookie_Monster

two rail lines on either side of it and no station during the rebuild, says it all about the attitude to planning. Why it wasn't mandatory as part of planning?

Should be at least one station on Maynooth line. Free travel as part of the ticket cost on the train. Would solve a large % of the problem. Shuttles back and forth from Connolly.

markpb

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

two rail lines on either side of it and no station during the rebuild, says it all about the attitude to planning. Why it wasn't mandatory as part of planning?

Almost no-one builds train stations right beside stadia any more. It sounds good in theory but in practice it leads to a crowd control nightmare. People don't have time or space to filter to the station, they all arrive in one big bunch which is unsafe, unpleasant and not recommended. In any case, frequencies on the Maynooth line are so low that it would be useless for getting a lot of people away from Croke Park.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Should be at least one station on Maynooth line. Free travel as part of the ticket cost on the train. Would solve a large % of the problem. Shuttles back and forth from Connolly.

Closing the car park at the Archbishops House and including public transport tickets in the cost of the match ticket would go a long way towards encouraging people to park further away and dissipating the traffic jam in the immediate area. The Gardai also need to do a lot more work at properly enforcing the bus lanes on the Swords and Malahide roads.

Trampas

I have seen the road closed after games a few times now.

traffic is diverted up whitworth road.

safer to stop cars and buses on roads where you have tens of thousand people in the one area.

maybe advance notice of road closures on news reports earlier over the weekend might be an idea

RJC

Valetta wrote: »

I would have thought so. Anyone around town on Friday or Saturday could hardly fail to notice that there was a major event coming up.

It is common sense to check timings for travel to the airport and any possible delays. I know I always do when abroad.

When I go to other major european cities, or even other codes in Ireland, this chaos around stadia events doesn't seem to happen. This leads me to believe that the fundamental planning of access to the event (access being in and out) is not well developed around GAA events.

The 'erra, t'is grand' attitude will have to be put into sharp focus.

markpb

Trampas wrote: »

safer to stop cars and buses on roads where you have tens of thousand people in the one area.

Perhaps it would be better to temporarily widen the footpaths for those days and leave the remaining 2 centre lanes (out of 6) for buses and emergency services? Croke Park might be a big stadia but the N1 is still a major artery for the city - shutting it down because they can't handle the crowds seems like overkill.

KD345

Valetta wrote: »

People should take responsibility and plan their own journeys in advance.

It is blindingly obvious that a crowd of 80,000 plus is going to have a major effect on traffic in the area.

If the authorities know that over 80,000 people will be causing diversions then they should inform people and communicate what diversions will be in place. There are some major cross city, northbound and airport bus routes which pass through this corridor. There is a responsibility on Dublin Bus, the Gardai, and in particular Dublin City Council to ensure that information is given to passengers detailing diversions and where passengers can board buses.

Having RTPI screens ignoring that bus routes are being cut short or on diversion is madness.

Considering how frequent the events are at Croke Park, you have to question why a regular traffic plan is not already in place.

Trampas

markpb wrote: »

Perhaps it would be better to temporarily widen the footpaths for those days and leave the remaining 2 centre lanes (out of 6) for buses and emergency services? Croke Park might be a big stadia but the N1 is still a major artery for the city - shutting it down because they can't handle the crowds seems like overkill.

Good idea

dowlingm

markpb wrote: »

Perhaps it would be better to temporarily widen the footpaths for those days and leave the remaining 2 centre lanes (out of 6) for buses and emergency services? Croke Park might be a big stadia but the N1 is still a major artery for the city - shutting it down because they can't handle the crowds seems like overkill.

You'd need to have public flogging stations nearby for drivers and pedestrians who decide to nip up the two lanes - only way to make it stick :rolleyes::eek:

markpb

dowlingm wrote: »

You'd need to have public flogging stations nearby for drivers and pedestrians who decide to nip up the two lanes - only way to make it stick :rolleyes::eek:

With the amount of Gardai on duty, it shouldn't be too hard to have one at each end to physically stop anyone trying.

AlekSmart

KD345 wrote: »

Considering how frequent the events are at Croke Park, you have to question why a regular traffic plan is not already in place.

This is my point KD345,the Gardai and CLG insist there IS a Traffic Management Plan in place for every event.

This is true in name only.

Trampas: I have seen the road closed after games a few times now.

Traffic is diverted up whitworth road.

safer to stop cars and buses on roads where you have tens of thousand people in the one area.

maybe advance notice of road closures on news reports earlier over the weekend might be an idea

Trampas,the Whitworth Road diversion is only used when Gardai on scene at Drumcondra Station decide the mayhem there merits it.

There is NO prepared diversion route,nor is there any method by which this can be achieved,other than agreeing that the current "Plan" is a crock of shytte.

Currently the "Official" line is that some disruption may occur to through traffic at certain periods.

Sundays collapse saw the Whitworth Road diversion being moved all the way back down to Granby Row/Western Way effectively closing over a mile of Dorset Street and Lower Drumcondra.

None of the myriad official sites will even recognise that this cannot be passed off as normality in Traffic Management terms....before we can address problems we HAVE to admit that they exist !!

AlekSmart

markpb wrote: »

With the amount of Gardai on duty, it shouldn't be too hard to have one at each end to physically stop anyone trying.

One of the REALLY bad problems which becomes ever more apparent at such events is that Garda planning is somewhat lacking.

Croke Park is particularly badly afflicted with this as every member on crowd/traffic control duty appears to have heard a totally different breifing than the person beside them.

This leads to Gardai isuing conflicting instructions,and even arguing amongst each other in ythe middle of the street as they jump around trying to be as "Civic" and Friendly as possible when what is really needed are Firm,Decisive and Clear Directions to both drivers and pedestrians.

One thing which IS abundantly clear is the urgent need to close the Clonliffe College Car Park,as it is one of the major factors in causing dangerous chaos in the lead up to,and end of,major fixtures.

Millem

I think that a wider city plan needs to be looked at on match days in CP. firstly, the port tunnel should be opened for free when there is an event on, thereby facilitating uninterrupted transit along the N1 corridor.

IMO there should be a standardised, well advertised bus diversion schedule, with Dublin bus services who usually serve Drumcondra operating whitworth rd - phibsboro - home farm road, and back on to the original routing. Thereby the area around jones' rd and Drumcondra station could become pedestrianised; I feel it is only a matter of time before a serious incident occurs at this junction. Mass numbers and a very busy road IMO is a recipe for incident and I am amazed nothing has occurred here up to now.

Finally (and I know this is pie in the sky), the underuse of the railway infrastructure adjacent to the stadium is ridiculous. I can't believe that development of croke park wasn't accompanied by a caveat to provide a halt on the canal line. The GAA (I believe) paid cie for 'air rights' I.e. to build the Davin stand over the canal line. Why were the gaa not requested to fund a station there instead?

If it were me I would extend the dart OHLE down the Newcomen curve and up to binns bridge, and site a dart station there, 2 platforms with services heading to p7 connolly and beyond.

Drumcondra's 2 platforms could be used to serve maynooth (and beyond) and heuston p10 respectively. Such a setup could facilitate a large exodus relatively seamlessly.

It is highly unfortunate that we don't make better use of the infrastructure we have; with modest investment (or not at all!!) and / or a coherent plan, life could be a whole lot easier

AlekSmart

Millem wrote: »

I think that a wider city plan needs to be looked at on match days in CP. firstly, the port tunnel should be opened for free when there is an event on, thereby facilitating uninterrupted transit along the N1 corridor.

IMO there should be a standardised, well advertised bus diversion schedule, with Dublin bus services who usually serve Drumcondra operating whitworth rd - phibsboro - home farm road, and back on to the original routing. Thereby the area around jones' rd and Drumcondra station could become pedestrianised; I feel it is only a matter of time before a serious incident occurs at this junction. Mass numbers and a very busy road IMO is a recipe for incident and I am amazed nothing has occurred here up to now.

Finally (and I know this is pie in the sky), the underuse of the railway infrastructure adjacent to the stadium is ridiculous. I can't believe that development of croke park wasn't accompanied by a caveat to provide a halt on the canal line. The GAA (I believe) paid cie for 'air rights' I.e. to build the Davin stand over the canal line. Why were the gaa not requested to fund a station there instead?

If it were me I would extend the dart OHLE down the Newcomen curve and up to binns bridge, and site a dart station there, 2 platforms with services heading to p7 connolly and beyond.

Drumcondra's 2 platforms could be used to serve maynooth (and beyond) and heuston p10 respectively. Such a setup could facilitate a large exodus relatively seamlessly.

It is highly unfortunate that we don't make better use of the infrastructure we have; with modest investment (or not at all!!) and / or a coherent plan, life could be a whole lot easier

Nail on Head.

What makes it all so annoying is the fact that the Croke Park rebuilding process was one of THE projects of late 20th Century Ireland and as such ideally placed to impliment all the various elements of modern traffic and Public Transport planning.....as it appears to show here..../

http://www.culgreen.ie/Resources/pdfs/Croke_Park_Public_Transport_Guide.pdf

Cookie_Monster

markpb wrote: »

Almost no-one builds train stations right beside stadia any more. It sounds good in theory but in practice it leads to a crowd control nightmare.

On exit maybe but only about 600 odd people at a time arrive on a train at most. The most immediate example I can think of is Munich, tram terminus outside the stadium, was there when a match was on, trams every 30 seconds, chock full themselves, but no crowding at the ground itself. Not sure how well handled the exit was but with that kind of frequency and capacity it'll still quickly resolve itself.
Auckland is the same, station about 200m from the ground, was insanely packed upon leaving but very frequent trains and plenty of staff ensure there were no problems despite the numbers.

cson

Fwiw I'd be of the opinion that the Ballybough rd should be closed and patrons funnelled down that way to Croker than any attempt at doing something over the Drumcondra side. You could reroute the 123 over Annesly Bridge and it wouldn't put too many out.

munchkin_utd

Talking about rail links to croker is a red herring.
Yesterday a team from a county without any rail link (donegal) was playing so for them any solution was going to be either fully or mostly road based.

I was at the game yesterday and was near the stadium from quite early in the afternoon, about 3 hours before the game.
One of the major problems before the game was overspill at pubs onto the road.
Why? Because simply people were using pubs as their meet up point for exchanging tickets or a chat and multiply that by a large percentage of 82300 people and you have a lot of folks hanging about on main roads.
The big tree pub being one such major reference point.

You could also say that a rail station in croke park would be useless if not down right dangerous for one simple reason. Its inside the security cordon which you currently need a ticket to access. If you just disgorge thousands at the stadium without a ticket then you would be packing an area with 82000 people in it with even more people. And the ticketless would then be walking against the flow of fans which is not a good idea.

Another angle on it is that you had two teams yesterday who are relatively seldom at croke park for sell out games, so a lot were doing the same thing, most driving and then looking to park as near to croke park as possible either in the car park or on mostly closed off roads. Compare that to the sly old foxes from cork who have have tried and tested battle plans from parking in bray or red cow or south inner city or whatnot which spreads the traffic more evenly. They certainly are not as fixated on the need to park in drumcondra as the donegal folk and mayo folks I met were.

I could probably go on with other observations on what I saw in the buildup compared to what I see in say games in Munich but I'll leave it at that for now.

Millem

munchkin_utd wrote: »

Talking about rail links to croker is a red herring.
Yesterday a team from a county without any rail link (donegal) was playing so for them any solution was going to be either fully or mostly road based.

I was at the game yesterday and was near the stadium from quite early in the afternoon, about 3 hours before the game.
One of the major problems before the game was overspill at pubs onto the road.
Why? Because simply people were using pubs as their meet up point for exchanging tickets or a chat and multiply that by a large percentage of 82300 people and you have a lot of folks hanging about on main roads.
The big tree pub being one such major reference point.

You could also say that a rail station in croke park would be useless if not down right dangerous for one simple reason. Its inside the security cordon which you currently need a ticket to access. If you just disgorge thousands at the stadium without a ticket then you would be packing an area with 82000 people in it with even more people. And the ticketless would then be walking against the flow of fans which is not a good idea.

Another angle on it is that you had two teams yesterday who are relatively seldom at croke park for sell out games, so a lot were doing the same thing, most driving and then looking to park as near to croke park as possible either in the car park or on mostly closed off roads. Compare that to the sly old foxes from cork who have have tried and tested battle plans from parking in bray or red cow or south inner city or whatnot which spreads the traffic more evenly. They certainly are not as fixated on the need to park in drumcondra as the donegal folk and mayo folks I met were.

I could probably go on with other observations on what I saw in the buildup compared to what I see in say games in Munich but I'll leave it at that for now.

Some good points made here. Agree with your points re the siting of a station inside the cordon being problematic, but the provision of a canal end station isn't insurmountable, either there or further up in the whitworth road direction.

I think that, if advertised properly, the on site rail connections could be utilized to
alleviate traffic bottlenecks in the city area. For example, both M3 parkway and dunboyne (though not ideally sited for donegal & mayo fans) have large car parks. With a bit of incentivisation & advertising by gaa, IR and DCC / Meath co co, these tumbleweed locations could be used to provide a seamless journey to Croker & back for fans.

Again it absolutely amazes me how there is no connectivity between state and sporting organizations for events such as these. Ultimately a decent transit plan could make the whole to-ing and fro-ing of the match day experience much better.

AlekSmart

Millem wrote: »

Again it absolutely amazes me how there is no connectivity between state and sporting organizations for events such as these. Ultimately a decent transit plan could make the whole to-ing and fro-ing of the match day experience much better.

Unfortunately it has long ceased to amaze me.....:o

One of the more interesting social elements of the recent high-profile U.S Varsity football match in the Aviva was the manner in which the Yanks fashioned more of a big-days event around the match itself.

The entire "tailgating" thing with fans,bands and cheerleaders parading to the match itself seems to me something worth CLG's time in investigating with a view to having an alternative focus to standing around outside the Big Tree or Quinns with Buses passing millimetres from one's ass.

However,as I've already said,the "Authorities" are already of the opinion that a "Plan" is already there and working...it's only grumpy oul sods like us that differ from that "Official" line !!

ardmacha

You could also say that a rail station in croke park would be useless if not down right dangerous for one simple reason. Its inside the security cordon which you currently need a ticket to access

Run special trains there (from Dunboyne say) and check the tickets before getting on board? Regular trains should not stop there.

For example, both M3 parkway and dunboyne (though not ideally sited for donegal & mayo fans) have large car parks.

The N3 goes to Ballyshannon, does it not?

There is very little effort at a plan of any sort.

ProudDUB

munchkin_utd wrote: »

Another angle on it is that you had two teams yesterday who are relatively seldom at croke park for sell out games, so a lot were doing the same thing, most driving and then looking to park as near to croke park as possible either in the car park or on mostly closed off roads. Compare that to the sly old foxes from cork who have have tried and tested battle plans from parking in bray or red cow or south inner city or whatnot which spreads the traffic more evenly. They certainly are not as fixated on the need to park in drumcondra as the donegal folk and mayo folks I met were.

Agree 100% on that. Far, far too many people want to drive their cars right up to Croke Parks front doorstep, but be able to make a handy get a way too afterwards too. They will park their cars all over the narrow, residential side streets of Ballybough, Fairview, Drumcondra & Phibsboro etc. That leads to terrible bottle necks & traffic when they all want to leave at the same time, to go home via pedestrian packed streets & busy intersections with pubs on corners that are over flowing with customers.

I mean no disrespect to our country breathern, but I don't think that the folks living in small towns realize how much of a pain this is to city dwellers considering the area in general, how busy it is even when matches are not on, and how important a transport route Drumcondra is especially for traffic heading to the airport. I live in the area. Every time I see a post (in the Dublin forum or the GAA forum usually) from a person coming up by car for a match or a concert at Croker, and they want advice on parking as close as possible to it, I want to cyber smack them !

I fully accept the point that folks from Donegal (with no train service) had no choice on Sunday but to commute up by car. But to solve this problem there have to be changes made on many levels & peoples mind sets need to change.

1. Communicate better to match goers the availability of public transport on the day. Using it may not normally occur to someone living in a small town or village who uses their car to get about, and who would not normally take public transport in their day to day lives. Folks from Kerry, Cork, Kilkenny, Tipp, etc etc can organize this kind of stuff in their sleep. It's important to communicate better to counties who may not experience All Ireland Sundays all that often, what their match day transport options are. Get their county boards and clubs involved in spreading the word too. In these days of Twitter and Facebook and social media in general, it can be done relatively easily and cheaply.

2. Communicate better the availability of parking in the city center & walking or busing it to Croke Park. So many of the cities multi story car parks are sitting empty on Sunday afternoons. Why not use them and spread out the crowds a bit better? Park in the ILAC or Jervis Center car parks, and you can be on the quays and heading towards the main motor ways in 10-15 minutes. Why not do that instead of sitting in traffic on Clonliffe Rd for an hour?

3. Build large satelite car parks (for match or concert days only perhaps??) nearer rails lines. With no much land sitting empty these days, how hard or expensive would it be to construct a 2000 space car park within walking distance of the Balbriggan or Maynooth train stations for those approaching the city from the north? Or one near the Red Cow or Tallaght Luas stops for those approaching the city from the south or west. Bulldoze a few of those god awful looking, vacant Celtic Tiger apt buildings in City West and bobs yer uncle.

4. Get Bus Eireann & Irish Rail involved more. Lay on special game day bus and train services. Drop everyone off at Busaras & Connolly which is a mere 10 minute walk to Croke Park. The additional revenue to the transport coffers can't but be beneficial to all, no?

5. Coordinate & inform the Guards better on what the fcuk is going on. Not just when games are on at Croke Park but whenever ANYTHING big is going on. Get a plan in place and get everyone on the same page, both the public and the authorities. You think traffic and crowds at Croker are bad? Try living in town when the roads were closed when the Queen or President Obama or the Bavaria Races were in town. There were massive road closures, not just for the few hours of a game but for days. The level of ignorance displayed by the Guards that I spoke to about road closures, where bus stops and taxi ranks had been moved to, where bus routes had been diverted to etc etc was beyond comical.