Storage Heaters and Underfloor heating

liara_n7

Hi
Need some help here..
Put down deposit on house with storage heaters and underfloor heating need some advice..
Now I know from some people that storage heaters heat up between peak hours and release during the day..but does it use much electricity? roughly how much a month for general usage?
The underfloor heating, I'm not too keen on for lack of knowledge only.
HELP >:(
a rough estimate on the esb would be greatly appreciated

ebixa82

liara_n7 wrote: »

Hi
Need some help here..
Put down deposit on house with storage heaters and underfloor heating need some advice..
Now I know from some people that storage heaters heat up between peak hours and release during the day..but does it use much electricity? roughly how much a month for general usage?
The underfloor heating, I'm not too keen on for lack of knowledge only.
HELP >:(
a rough estimate on the esb would be greatly appreciated

I started a thread on storage heaters already this week.

We use one storage heater to heat the living room of a small 2 bed apartment. Average bills in winter would be 160-180 per month, at least half of which is attributed to that one storage heater.

I'm getting them replaced with this..lucht LHZ economic electric heating

Check out their website. Expensive to install but well worth the saving, all you need to do is plug them into a normal socket.

sparrowcar

I'm also interested in the under floor heating part.

Sale agreed on a house with floor heating in he kitchen, curious as to the cost of the heating in the bigger scheme of things?

dardhal

sparrowcar wrote: »

I'm also interested in the under floor heating part.

Sale agreed on a house with floor heating in he kitchen, curious as to the cost of the heating in the bigger scheme of things?

To the OP, it sound very weird to me that an apartment / house has a mixture of both underfloor heating and electric storage heaters. I can't think of any valid engineering reason for that, except squeezing a few euros from the construction costs by replacing one room's underfloor heating for a (much cheaper at installation time) electric storage heater.

Underfloor heating can be based on a "plastic" water pipe sneaking below the floor's concrete, where hot water flows, or based on an electric wire were electricity flows, and that heats very much like any Joule effect heater, hair dryier, kitchen toaster works.

Water-based underfloor heating using a condensing gas boiler is much more efficient and much cheaper to run than electric ones (and you get instant domestic hot water at no extra cost or space waste). Electric underfloor heating will be much more expensive to run (as electricity cost is much higher than gas cost for the same amount of heat generated, except for off-peak electricity fares, whose prices are quite about the same). But still, electric underfloor heating will be much cheaper to run than electric storage heaters at the same comfort level.

And that is the important bit, "at the same comfort level". Any underfloor heating technology works as efficient regarding human comfort as technology can get: hotter closer to the floor (feet), cooler closer to the ceiling (head). Human comfort is much better when your head is cool and your feet warm, than when the situation is the other way around.

With normal and storage heaters (be them electric or gas / oil fired), heat is only generated and very tiny spots across the house (the radiators / emitters), and at very high temperatures. Due to how heat transfer works, most heat gets lots immediately by very hot air ascending and accumulating near the ceiling, while at the same time, colder air gets moved closer to the floor. It takes a long time and lots of energy to make the whole room reach a comfort temperature, and by then your feet will be warm, but your head will most likely be too hot. Very uncomfortable and quite expensive. If ceiling and wall insulation is poor, and there are air drafts, your energy bill will go through the roof.

With underfloor heating, the whole floor gets warm (water based ones pump water as temperatures as low as 35ºC, so the floor is more than comfortable to touch or walk), and air closer to it gets slightly warmer, and goes up slowly, loosing some temperature along the way. You get your feet warm first and them the heat goes up, but cooler the closer to the head. Toddlers will happily crawl across the house and human comfort will be second to none. That is something you will mostly lack with storage heaters.

On all those houses where underfloor heating is only installed in part of the space, I am pretty sure that is electricity-based. If installation is designed and performed well heating costs for that part will be lower than with a electric heater counterpart, but still running costs (specially on peak hours or if not engaged in a night saver scheme) will be high, but at the same electricity cost you will get better comfort, which is not bad.

sparrowcar

Fantastic post, thanks for the info.

chri

hi all
I need too get some sort of heating system in my house.

I have no chimney stack so an open fire or pot belly stove is out of the question .

if i was to get gas central heating it would cost me too much at this time

so as i only need too heat up 3 of the rooms in my house
i was thinking of getting some storage

i would like too know whats better

storage heaters or LHZ heaters

or is there a different's

any advice would be grate

thanks

dardhal

chri wrote: »

if i was to get gas central heating it would cost me too much at this time

But if you invest in some temporary solution to the problem and to that you add the running costs, you may never be able to afford the right heating technology you need (provided home thermal insulation is sorted out).

storage heaters or LHZ heaters

or is there a different's

I have never heard about LHZ heaters before, but did some googling, and they seem to be rather expensive electric storage heaters, so there is little advantage to those compared to more traditional storage heaters (except, maybe, better power and output control and modulation). Anything which converts directly from electricity to heat is going to be 100% efficient, nothing more, nothing less. Both technologies will try to take advantage of the lower night "unit" (KWh) price to heat some brick and release part of the heat during the day, when KWh prices are higher.

Heating by Joule effect (direct electricity to heat conversion) is arguably the most expensive way of heating, and probably the least convenient. Storage heaters are little flexible, use lots of energy, and when running as normal heaters they are so hot that hot air quickly goes up and they take a long time (and money) to warm the place.

Gas boilers are cheaper to run because gas prices are cheaper than electricity when heating, but a boiler will set you back 2000€ on its own, and then you need to install the pipes along the house, the radiators, and to some extents they suffer from the same problems as heaters: they are stuck to the walls, where they heat air too much, which moves upwards and takes longer to give the place a nice temperature.

A condensing gas boiler plus radiant floor is the best way to go, the most expensive to install, but by far the cheapest to run and the most comfortable to enjoy. Floor gets warm all over the area, air gets warm closer to the floor and somewhat cooler towards the head, which is the right thing for the body. Unfortunately, very difficult (if not impossible), and expensive, to retrofit on existing homes.

But if I were you, before spending a single euro on heating, I would give a very comprehensive view at my home current thermal insulation, drafts and air leaks or infiltrations. There is no point in heating air that is going to escape through old windows, under the doors, or freezing air coming in from cracks, vents, etc. On all those houses with very big and old single pane windows, moving to double-glazed ones (with low-emissive coating and a good PVC or wood frame) should be second priority after fixing wall insulation and drafts. And then think about heating the place.

chri

dardhal wrote: »

But if you invest in some temporary solution to the problem and to that you add the running costs, you may never be able to afford the right heating technology you need (provided home thermal insulation is sorted out).

I do understand the long tearm of not getting central heating
I got a quote too get my house done of a few different people
and it ranges from 5000 to 7000 euro

with a wife
a morage
and two kids
its not easy getting that kind of money

so as a temporary solution for this winter
I need too get some sort of heating
do you think storage heaters will do the job

The_Conductor

Guys- another thing to think about- SEI have extensive grant programs available for retofitting heating and/or insulation. Check it out.

chri

smccarrick wrote: »

Guys- another thing to think about- SEI have extensive grant programs available for retofitting heating and/or insulation. Check it out.

how can i apply for this grant

dardhal

Another thing that may help lower the heating bills during winters when children are involved is installing some kind of carpet / rug on those places where children are, so the floor is less cold to the touch, and if they keep crawling or playing just over the floor, the general comfort may improve a lot by avoiding direct contact with the cold floor (if not wood or carpet already).

The best way to apply for a grant is look yourself, there are too many factors involved and if you don't have the will to go to Google and do some searches, you won't most likely be able to apply for them . Or hire a solicitor and hand all paperwork over to them, so in the end if you get the grant, you will save nothing because the solicitor will squeeze you hard time for not doing things yourself.

ebixa82

got my lucht heating installed. They are amazing. All digitally controlled so you can can program each day as you want.

Storage heating bill was 150e per month on average before, got my last bill two days ago. Only 30e!

Best invention ever.

dardhal

ebixa82 wrote: »

got my lucht heating installed. They are amazing. All digitally controlled so you can can program each day as you want.

Storage heating bill was 150e per month on average before, got my last bill two days ago. Only 30e!

Best invention ever.

I am not going to say that you are lying, but all other things being equal, it is quite difficult to believe a 80% reduction in your power bill from switching to those improved electric heater radiators from older versions of the storage heater concept. By reading the information on the company website, they may have a better design, engineering and construction than older technology, but at 100% efficiency, the only thing they can do better than older units is releasing heat in a more controlled way from their so called "magmatic tablet" (instead of plain bricks).

In fact, it looks like the "storage" feature of this brand heaters is more limited than those from traditional ones (website quotes 45 minutes heat release after powered off), and the secret seems to be the lower operating temperature (which should drive radiant losses down quite a bit, and help heat exchange with surrounding air instead of heating it so hot that it escapes immediately to the ceiling), and the extensive and automatic control features (temperature and times).

As this product doesn't seem to store heat during night to release it during the day, I will assume the running costs are those of the day KWh in Ireland, which we can approximate by 0.15€ each, so even if your 30€ bill doesn't include any standing charge, that would be good for 200 KWh, to be spread over one full month. Or under 7 KWh /day, which is equivalent to 24 MJ in released energy (heat) every day.

At the same time, let's suppose a extremely well insulated squared dwelling, 100 sq.m., scoring 0.2 W/m2*K for walls , 1 W/m*K for windows, and 0.1 W/m2*K for the ceiling, and no heat losses or cold air getting in due to open windows, ventilation, doors, etc., and an average temperature difference between the inside and the outside of 10ºK (=10ºC), oh, and 4 sq.m. worth of windows. That house would loose, simply due to the laws of thermodynamics, 340 W in heat constantly which amount to 29 MJ during the 86400 seconds a day consists of.

So, I don't argue those devices may have proved to be a much more efficient and convenient way to keep your home warm, and in fact they may have achieved the sought reduction in electricity bills, but somewhere in your data or in my calculations (or in the assumptions) there is something wrong, because energy balances simply don't add up.

dardhal

dardhal wrote: »

So, I don't argue those devices may have proved to be a much more efficient and convenient way to keep your home warm, and in fact they may have achieved the sought reduction in electricity bills, but somewhere in your data or in my calculations (or in the assumptions) there is something wrong, because energy balances simply don't add up.

And now that I took the time to read ebixa82's previous messages on the subject I realized he is most likely not heating a 100 sq.m. space, and he hasn't 4 sq.m. worth of windows in his living room, and so on. In any case, hopefully my calculations can be useful for someone else to gauge how much energy (and money) at the bare minimum and under optimistic assumptions may be needed to keep temperature on a place on a constant basis.

Sorry for the noise.