Steering wheel vibration under braking

00lk

hello,

03 ford focus Mk1 Diesel

Have this car about 1year now. A couple of months after I bought it I noticed the steering wheel vibrating / shudder under braking, it then got progressively worse, the dashboard started rattling etc. but only under braking from about 50mph to 30mph.

I brought it back to the mechanic I bought it from and he changed the discs and pads. Problem solved..... until a few weeks later the problem came back again and got progressively worse over the next few weeks. so I brought it back again.....

Long story short, the car is now on its 4th set of new discs and pads since I bought it. He has gone through all the bearings and changed one on the driveshaft near the engine (drivers side) all the rest are fine.

before you ask..... yes he has actually changed the discs & pads, I've watched him do it. He even used different disc manufacturers. This problem is very annoying. Each time the discs/pads are changed the problem is totally solved for a few weeks and then starts to get progressively worse over the next few weeks, steering wheel shudders and then the dash board rattles - the problem is at its worst when braking from about 50-30mph.

any ideas??

Ded_Zebra

Your front discs are getting warped due to heat.
Some cars seam to do this more than others. When they get warped again you should be able to get then machined instead of replacing them. This might save a few quid. It shouldn't be nessary to deplace the pads if them aren't worn out but they will need to be "bedded in" again.

00lk

Thanks Zebra,

I've already put 4 sets of discs into the car, I don't want to be removing them and getting them machined every couple of months.


Should I use original ford discs only? Is this a common fault in the MK1 Focus, does anyone know??

Ded_Zebra

I would guess that the genuine discs would be better but a good aftermarket brand should be ok. What brand are you using atm?

You could also look into upgrading your brakes (newer focus maybe??)

Ronnie Beck

00lk wrote: »

hello,

03 ford focus Mk1 Diesel

Have this car about 1year now. A couple of months after I bought it I noticed the steering wheel vibrating / shudder under braking, it then got progressively worse, the dashboard started rattling etc. but only under braking from about 50mph to 30mph.

I brought it back to the mechanic I bought it from and he changed the discs and pads. Problem solved..... until a few weeks later the problem came back again and got progressively worse over the next few weeks. so I brought it back again.....

Long story short, the car is now on its 4th set of new discs and pads since I bought it. He has gone through all the bearings and changed one on the driveshaft near the engine (drivers side) all the rest are fine.

Edit: For clarity, does it stop when you press the clutch

before you ask..... yes he has actually changed the discs & pads, I've watched him do it. He even used different disc manufacturers. This problem is very annoying. Each time the discs/pads are changed the problem is totally solved for a few weeks and then starts to get progressively worse over the next few weeks, steering wheel shudders and then the dash board rattles - the problem is at its worst when braking from about 50-30mph.

any ideas??

Are you sure its the braking system causing this and its not the engine juddering as the revs drop? Does it happen as the revs drop quickly through a certain band or under engine breaking as you downshift.

Edit: For clarity, does it stop when you press in the clutch.

00lk

No, this happens under foot pedal braking ONLY.
As I said problem goes away once new discs & pads are fitted
back again after 2 to 3 weeks and get worse over time.
Good brand of discs used at each change.

beanie10

Check wheel nuts for tightness, I had similar problem but learned the hard way.

Discs shouldnt warp that quickly unless calipers are partly seized.

George Dalton

What exact brands of discs and pads were used?

Have seen this loads of times on Fords with certain brands of discs and pads. The problem is not the disc warping but pad material being deposited on the discs. So it is more about the pads used than the discs.

00lk

Hi Beanie,
Wheel nuts are tight & if the calipers were sticking then surely id get a burning smell & she wouldn't be doing 49mpg either.

George - don't know the exact brands used but of the 4 sets of discs put on since I bought it, he didn't use OEM ford discs at any stage.
Is there something I should be looking out for on the disc if I inspect it visually in the morning, scarring or deposits etc ... tell tale signs of bad quality pads??

George Dalton

We sold a Focus a couple of years back and it had new discs and pads fitted before it went out. About a month later the customer was back with vibration in the brakes. We fitted another new set of discs and pads and thought that was that. Another month passed and they were back again. So we fitted a different brand of pads with the same brand of discs and the problem hasn't come back since.

The pads that caused the problems were Mintex. The last set we fitted were Ferodo so they seem to work well on them. The discs were Delphi but as I said the pads are more important than the discs in this case.

Just FYI we also run a 2003 Focus work van and that gets genuine Ford parts as nothing else will stand up to the treatment it gets :pac:

Mar4ix

I had similar problem with my car .. not ford , that was Mazda, same problem.... to get fixed for sure, brought car to Mazda dealer.

Changed front discs and pads, ... paid silly money (mean expensive) for after market discs and pads (original was twice silly), but seller at counter said, those aftermarket discs and pads leaving same factory what original, ... so job done.... after 2 weeks, same problem came back, so i went to dealers, they test brakes, and everything .... yes discs warped, so changed to other set for free .... 2 -3 weeks, same problem .... i went to dealers, said... ill pay extra some money .... put everything original .... ok,,,, did it ... 4-6 weeks... same problem ... but i was so pissed off, that i decided do full brake system investigation myself, well ... i didnt do really much ... i checked brake cylinder .. which in caliper, it was rusty as feck .... i pull out it, polished, till was like mirror, and cleaned and greased with proper grease guide bars on which caliper slides, completely changed brake fluid .... , then i skimmed discs and fitted ... , since then never had problems with brakes.

So, you shall check your calipers.

alanmc

A good test for a sticking caliper is if your wheel feels hot after a drive (even if you've used light braking). Don't actually touch the wheel or disc as they have the potential to be very hot indeed. Just hover your hand around the wheel.

Get the wheel in the air and spin it. If it grinds to a halt pretty quickly, you may have a sticky caliper.

Next, open the bleed nipple and let a dribble of brake fluid out. If this frees up the wheel, then your hydraulics are at fault.

I had this on the rear brake on my bike. Turned out to be the master cylinder. Bought a rebuild kit and ... errm ... rebuilt the master. No problems since.

00lk

Cheers lads thanks,

George - I'll look into the type of pads used and see what he says.

Mar4ix / alanmc - Yes, it's definately worth looking at the caliper at this stage. I just don't see how it would do 48/49mpg with a sticky caliper. And it would annoy me even more if the Mechanic hadn't checked this himself but you never know I suppose.

Thanks

ancuncha

i had a similar problem with an octavia, what it turned out to be was the ball joint in near the steering rack, not the one out at the wheel
replaced the rod, which screws into the rack and all was good

even with this it was driving perfect and you wouldn't know it was gone, except when you braked

00lk

Just to give an update to the situation, (04 MK1 Focus TDCi)

I had my mechanic fit another (used) set of brake calipers to the Focus in late October. Discs and pads were also changed.
Once again I was motoring away fine for 2 or 3 weeks and then within the last week or two the vibration problem is coming back and getting worse as time goes on.

So once again;

• Heavy vibration through steering wheel and some through the brake pedal especially when braking from 60 down to 40mph.
• Problem goes away for a few weeks when new pads and discs are fitted.
• Bearings and bushings checked by mechainc and all seems ok
• The fact that the problem disappears for a while after a disc/pad change would surely suggest that I don't have a bearing/ bushing / link issue ???
• Its a pity cause its a great car to drive and 48 MPG.

Any more suggestions.

jdee99

Check that the hubs that the disc sit on are clean - I had some rust built up on mine - cleaned it off with a wire brush and 2 months later they are still fine. Went through similar story to you

coppercat

00lk wrote: »

Just to give an update to the situation, (04 MK1 Focus TDCi)

I had my mechanic fit another (used) set of brake calipers to the Focus in late October. Discs and pads were also changed.
Once again I was motoring away fine for 2 or 3 weeks and then within the last week or two the vibration problem is coming back and getting worse as time goes on.

So once again;

• Heavy vibration through steering wheel and some through the brake pedal especially when braking from 60 down to 40mph.
• Problem goes away for a few weeks when new pads and discs are fitted.
• Bearings and bushings checked by mechainc and all seems ok
• The fact that the problem disappears for a while after a disc/pad change would surely suggest that I don't have a bearing/ bushing / link issue ???
• Its a pity cause its a great car to drive and 48 MPG.

Any more suggestions.

it does sound like warped discs are your problem so they will have to be replaced again or skimmed but this time when refitting wheels make sure the wheel nuts are tightened with a torque wrench to the manufacturers spec , have seen overtightened wheel nuts cause this problem on a focus before .

beanie10

Its hardly a problem with abs system?

Harcrid

Are you using the same manufacturer of discs and pads every time you are changing them?

Ronnie Beck

Did you fit genuine Ford pads and discs as George suggested?

00lk

Genuine Ford Discs and Pads were used for one of the disc/pad changes yes - but same outcome.
Different brands of disc/pads have been tried.
Haven't heard of the overtightened wheel nut thing Coppercat - I'll mention that to mechanic next time.

I took it out early this morning on the main road for a test and some heavy braking and noticed the following;

• The brakes work fine, the ABS works as normal when required.
• The vibration is plenty worse through the steering wheel (most noticable between 60-40mph) than the foot pedal - but vibration is still there through the foot pedal.
• A right stink of burning off the left front wheel and definately warmer to touch than the right front but not roasting or anything. (I already changed the calipers which has made no difference to this problem)
• Disc discolouration

ancuncha

i bet it's not your brakes thats the problem, i had similar trouble with and octavia turned out to be the ball joint on this part
http://www.micksgarage.com/steering-suspension-parts/inner-tie-rod/skoda/octavia/octavia/1996-onwards/1.9-tdi/7909/
i'd call it the track rod, they have inner tie rod and was simple, just screws into the steering rack
the car was perfect not braking, only when braking did it show up

00lk

Ancuncha,

I'm not so sure that this is the case for me. The problem goes away (fopr 2to3 Weeks) totally if I put on new Discs/Pads. If I had a ball joint issue then surely the vibration would remain even after putting on new Discs/Pads no?.
What concerns me is the amount of heat and smell from the left front wheel after a good test drive last saturday. Even though these are new Brake Calipers. I'm inclined to think I have a problem with the master cylinder !!

Ronnie Beck

Did you change you brake hoses along with the calipers? I don't think the master cylinder can cause a caliper to stick.

martyc5674

Warped stub axle?
Did the car ever get a clip?

I'd check that first based on your experience so far... Put a dial on it and see.
Then I'd be looking at Master cylinder... It may be preventing calliper from returning hence the heat on left front... What's your rear right like heat wise??(two independant diagonal circuits in master cylinder)
Marty.

Mar4ix

hmmm ... could be also both wheel bearings out, i mean car probably with previous owner very hard hit a kerb with front wheels, this made wheel bearings change an angle. .... kinda went out . happened with one vw golf , here in forum. also changed everything, at the end dealer said, it is bearings out of shape, after replacing both, problem solved.

Chimaera

Was a full fluid flush done when the calipers were changed? It's also worth checking that the slide pins on the calipers are clean and greased. I'm wondering if there's a fault in the system that's only manifesting itself when the pads wear past a certain point. The pads get thinner as they wear, so it could just be possible that as they wear down a worn/damaged part of the system is coming into play.

Continuing to throw new disks and pads at it is not going to solve the problem. I'd suggest getting a second opinion from another mechanic, and having an end-to-end inspection carried out on the braking system.

Waterson

Have you had the wheels checked for correct balance? Pehaps as a cheap experment swap rear wheels to front of car. It does sound like a braking issue, what is the condition of the brake fluid. Presumably the lines would have been cleared out with the fitting of the two replacement calipers, but is there an issue with the hose perhaps being kinked and not allowing the pressure to be let off one sied of the car when braking and so causing the imbalance. Does the car pull to one side when braking?

00lk

Just in reply to some of the posts above;

The car got 4 new tyres and wheels balanced a few months back. Didn't make any difference to the problem. Before or after.
Asked the original mechanic about the brake fluid and hoses and he said they were all checked and ok.

So Just this morning I went to another mechanic that I know to throw a second opinion over it. He took it for a spin and was convinced it's a problem in my steering rack somewhere. Too much steering wheel vibration and not enough in the brake pedal for it to be a braking issue. He checked the brakes after driving it for a while and lifted the front of the car up to check bearings etc. and found no issue there. It was interesting to get his opinion at least.

This has been going on since I bought the car (with a 5mth warranty) and I have changed the discs/pads 4 times, the first time during warranty. Original Mechanic needs to get to the bottom of this, cause its expensive !!

MercMad

I have definitely had similar problems and they were all as George Dalton suggested, symptoms of warped discs but turned out to be discs picking up the pad material. Its caused by pads that dont suit the car/driving style as the temperature they work best at is either not being reached or being exceeded.

Years ago we used to have to bed in the brakes, then there was no need and nowdays it seems that you have to do it to get them to work best.

A racer friend of mine claimed that discs on a road car rarely warp and that most of these issues are caused by pad material being deposited on the discs.

I replaced pads & discs on my own car, worn out, and this occurred about 2 months later. I went out onto the motorway and did about 10 fairly heavy stops from 120km/h, making sure it was safe to do so, and the problem went away.

If one wheel is heating up, then you also have another problem. Change the fluid and the flexipipes, bed the brakes in and if possible try a different set of genuine wheels, as some aftermarket wheels do not self centre.

Mar4ix

00lk wrote: »

Just in reply to some of the posts above;

The car got 4 new tyres and wheels balanced a few months back. Didn't make any difference to the problem. Before or after.
Asked the original mechanic about the brake fluid and hoses and he said they were all checked and ok.

So Just this morning I went to another mechanic that I know to throw a second opinion over it. He took it for a spin and was convinced it's a problem in my steering rack somewhere. Too much steering wheel vibration and not enough in the brake pedal for it to be a braking issue. He checked the brakes after driving it for a while and lifted the front of the car up to check bearings etc. and found no issue there. It was interesting to get his opinion at least.

This has been going on since I bought the car (with a 5mth warranty) and I have changed the discs/pads 4 times, the first time during warranty. Original Mechanic needs to get to the bottom of this, cause its expensive !!

°well, thats absolutely mysterious ... i have run out advices, just one last advice(with one oul mechanic), change whole lot in one go..... front calipers with hubs, discs , pads ... all from one car from scrapyard, ... and yes, put used discs and brake pads, bleed system properly, and drive for a while.... see what outcome will be.