DNA study of Limerick/Galway/Wexford families

cathy Swift

Folks, we're doing a Y-chromosome study of DNA of 50 of the oldest surnames in Limerick, Wexford and Galway. The surnames are chosen from surnames incorporated into the townland names of each county but which are also attested in medieval sources. The idea is that by looking at the surnames of families known to have been resident in the area in the middle ages, we'll find new information about the homelands of the people who came to Ireland in Viking and Norman periods as well as about the characteristics of the local population they encountered when they came. This project is at the cutting edge of genetics research - because Irish surnames include surnames deriving from different languages, we may be able to get information concerning the rate of mutation in father to son Y chromosomes which will be of relevance to the field of genetics worldwide as well as being able to find out historical information specific to the study of Irish settlement. We are looking for volunteers to give saliva swab; in Wexford at the Wexford Heritage Centre (evening of 20th October); Limerick at Fennessey's pub in New Street (lunchtime 21st October) and Galway - evening of 21st - venue still to be arranged. I attach the three lists of surnames. If you're a male, can trace your family back to your grandfather's day as residents of your county, are listed in the surname list and you'd like to volunteer - please email catherine.swift@mic.ul.ie.

If you're none of the above but are still interested in the project, please help us circulate this information as widely as possible.

Thanks,
Cathy Swift
Mary Immaculate College
Limerick

dubhthach

cathy Swift wrote: »

Folks, we're doing a Y-chromosome study of DNA of 50 of the oldest surnames in Limerick, Wexford and Galway. The surnames are chosen from surnames incorporated into the townland names of each county but which are also attested in medieval sources. The idea is that by looking at the surnames of families known to have been resident in the area in the middle ages, we'll find new information about the homelands of the people who came to Ireland in Viking and Norman periods as well as about the characteristics of the local population they encountered when they came. This project is at the cutting edge of genetics research - because Irish surnames include surnames deriving from different languages, we may be able to get information concerning the rate of mutation in father to son Y chromosomes which will be of relevance to the field of genetics worldwide as well as being able to find out historical information specific to the study of Irish settlement. We are looking for volunteers to give saliva swab; in Wexford at the Wexford Heritage Centre (evening of 20th October); Limerick at Fennessey's pub in New Street (lunchtime 21st October) and Galway - evening of 21st - venue still to be arranged. I attach the three lists of surnames. If you're a male, can trace your family back to your grandfather's day as residents of your county, are listed in the surname list and you'd like to volunteer - please email catherine.swift@mic.ul.ie.

If you're none of the above but are still interested in the project, please help us circulate this information as widely as possible.

Thanks,
Cathy Swift
Mary Immaculate College
Limerick

Are you going to be purely testing STR (Short Tandem Repeats) or will you also test SNP's (Single-nucleotide polymorphism's)?

If is a case of testing STR's how many are you planning on testing per Y-Chromosome?

cathy Swift

Hi Dubthach,

I'm the historian attached to the project and my job was to identify the medieval sources and the surnames. The testing is being done at the Department of Genetics at the University of Leicester - if I get this wrong I apologise but my understanding is that what is being tested will be STRs and about 35 - its got much cheaper to do a larger number apparently. I'm basing that on an oral presentation from a while back though and I'll forward your email and ask them to confirm. The premise behind the whole project is to build on a Wirral study which showed that if you looked at surnames which are attested in medieval sources, you get a much higher element of haplotypes typical of Scandinavia.

The article in question is
Georgina R. Bowden, Patricia Balaresque, Turi E. King, Ziff Hansen, Andrew C. Lee
Giles Pergl-Wilson, Emma Hurley, Stephen J. Roberts, Patrick Waite, Judith Jesch
Abigail L. Jones, Mark G. Thomas, Stephen E. Harding and Mark A. Jobling, “Excavating Past Population Structures by Surname-Based Sampling: The Genetic Legacy of the Vikings in Northwest England” Molecular Biology and Evolution 25.2 (2007), 301-9. http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/content/25/2/301.abstract

Ireland is particularly interesting in this regard because our medieval surnames show variety of linguistic origins and it may be that we'll be able to use this to say something new about the rate of mutation in Y chromosomes. The old idea that thy have a very long period without random mutations is apparently now under scrutiny and hopefully this study will help. We're also feeding into the database being created for the Peoples of Britain project and will hopefully allow them to pinpoint classic Irish haplotypes more precisely.

As I say, this is the historian's take on the question so if it sounds slightly wonky from a biological/genetic standpoint, the mistake is very much mine and I'll forward any criticisms to my scientifically more erudite partners.

cathy Swift

OOps - I did it get wrong: the right answer is apparently 17 STRs minimum and at least 19 SNPs...

Brennans Row

Although I can trace the male-line of my surname back five Limerick generations to the late 1820s, but it’s unfortunately not included in your list.

Will your study be published at some stage?

I reposted this onto the Genealogy forum (thread Limerick Data page 4).

cathy Swift

This is one of the very interesting problems which this kind of study throws up - people have been coming to Ireland for a very long time so how do you distinguish between people who are first recorded - say, in the 17th C (who may or may not be New English) and say, English people who are recorded in earlier sources as coming in the 13th C. They are both clearly Irish in 21st C terms but according to the model of immutable Y Chromosomes, their DNA signature should be identical. Alternatively either family may originally have had a Scandinavian ancestor which in theory should distinguish them but that would be completely random and unrelated to the fact that one family had been in Ireland 500 years earlier. And again, the theory suggests that there should be a haplotype which is distinctively Irish and different from our English ones. One of the exercises the group took part in was to try and identify "PURE" Irish - now there's a conundrum for you. So our project is called Linn na nGéinte Eireannacha - focussing on the fact that all these DNA haplotypes are found on this island and one of the things which we're trying to discover is just how mixed (genetically) were our medieval families.

So the project has the potential to move in a variety of different directions but one which would be very interesting is to do more research and try and discover, for example, the Palatine or New English surnames of the relevant counties and see how their DNA might differ from the medievally attested names. Row wasn't incoporated as a surname into a townland name or attested as common in the list of medieval LImerick surnames on the Limerick local history sources: Who's who list (go to Limerick City museum website) so that's why they're not included in this phase.

Yes we want to publish - what may happen (indeed likely to happen) is that we'll do 2 joint articles - one in a science journal and one in humanities as the research spills over into both but the readerships are different and really - for those taking part in the project - the questions are often rather different as well. The specific journals aren't picked yet - we need to have some idea of what the samples will tell us before we can proceed on that front.

Brennans Row

cathy Swift wrote: »

Row wasn't incoporated as a surname into a townland name or attested as common in the list of medieval LImerick surnames on the Limerick local history sources: Who's who list (go to Limerick City museum website) so that's why they're not included in this phase.

Sorry, but Row is not my surname.

Unlike Facebook, users here on Boards tend to prefer anonymity and therefore usually register under a pseudonym (i.e. I chose a city street name).

cathy Swift wrote: »

Yes we want to publish - what may happen (indeed likely to happen) is that we'll do 2 joint articles - one in a science journal and one in humanities as the research spills over into both but the readerships are different and really - for those taking part in the project - the questions are often rather different as well. The specific journals aren't picked yet - we need to have some idea of what the samples will tell us before we can proceed on that front.

From a genealogy point of view, most of us hit a brick a wall around 1800, as to how far back one can research one's family tree (church records).

DNA seems to be an interesting tool that could open up new possibilities for genealogy too.

I'm afraid I would not have access to science or academic journals, but why not circulate this and publish a light article in the Limerick Leader as it is a fascinating subject.

dubhthach

cathy Swift wrote: »

OOps - I did it get wrong: the right answer is apparently 17 STRs minimum and at least 19 SNPs...

That sounds about right for most academic research projects. Not been critical or anything but generally in the genetic-genealogy community there's a certain amount of annoyance regarding the fact that alot of studies still use what's regarded as a "low number" of both STR's and SNP's. Generally within the community the preference is for 67 STR markers at a minimum and 111. Likewise there tends to be heavier testing these days on SNP's. Anyways I whole-heartily agree with more such academic studies been carried out as they raise the awareness of quite an interesting angle to look at human populations. Given the major advances in ancient-DNA it is also hopefully that it will be considerably easier to extract viable "a-DNA" from remains found on archaeological digs etc.

Just to explain to other posters, here's an analogy to explain the difference. Picture you have a Tree which consists of all Y-Chromosome lineages of everyman on the planet.

The SNP's mark the Branches that spilt off from the Trunk. So when someone is said to be Haplogroup R1b they carry a SNP called M343. This creates a branch, only men who are R1b+ sit on this branch. Obviously the tree consists of several major "Trunks" and then a multitude of sub-branches and sub-branches. Each branching point is marked by a SNP.

Two men who carry the same SNP share a common male ancestor in the first man that the SNP arose in. However this ancestry could range from very old (several to tens of thousand years) to fairly recent (couple hundred to couple generations).

The STR's in comparison are more like the twigs/leaves on a tree. If for example you take two men who both match each other identically at 67 markers then probability of a common ancestor in genealogical time (last 4-8 generations) is very high. The more of a mismatch in this number the older and older the connection.

So as a result you often get STR Clusters, eg. a large group of men who carry a common signature when it comes to their STR results (certain values on different STR markers). Often these specific clusters can infer what Haplogroup (branch marked by a SNP) that a man belongs to.

A good example of this with regards to area around Limerick is a STR cluster known as "Irish Type III", this cluster is about 1100-1200 years old, it happens to be marked by it's own SNP L226 (R1b1a2a1a1b3a6a). This appears to be the cluster of the Dál gCáis.

Other good example is the "North West Irish Haplotye", this is marked by the M222 SNP. Trinity College published a study in 2006 linking this with the Uí Néill dynastical groups. We also see M222 results though in Northern Britain and of course among the related dynastical groupings of the Connachta (Uí Bhriúin, Uí Fhiachrach).

In general at least 70% of Irishmen carry a SNP called L21 (see: George B.J. Busby et al., The peopling of Europe and the cautionary tale of Y chromosome lineage R-M269. Proceedings of the Royal Society B, 2011. ), both L226 and M222 mentioned above are subclades of this marker -- all L226+ are by default L21+.

Some of calculations at moment put L21 as been 3,700-4,000 years old. In other words 70% of Irishmen share a common ancestor with a man who lived during the Bronze age. The current evidence is pointing to this SNP having a continental origin most likely in what is now France.

Obviously different populations show a different distribution of SNP's. At a basic level there appears to be a binary spilt in Western European R1b between two SNP's that have different distrubitions. One more heavily in Germanic speaking Europe (U106), the other (P312) is areas that were either Italic or Celtic speaking during the Iron Age.

RGM

Slightly off-topic: My grandmother's maiden name is Ryan and she is from Galway. The family believes they are descended from the old Tipperary Mulryan sept, but I suspect this may be inaccurate and their surname is actually a less common anglicization of O'Ruadhain (Rowan, Ruane). Is this something I might be able to find out through testing of my own DNA? Or, as I obviously have a different surname, would a living male Ryan relative have to be tested?

Or am I misunderstanding DNA testing altogether...

tac foley

I've never had any doubts about my ancestral origins. Called Foley, and tall, well-built [mesomorphic], blondish/redheads with a built-in prediliction for extreme violence [when required, that is, I'm not a psychopath] , we just had to some from 'up north and over a bit' somewhere.

A friend of ours, a doctor in Skane, is the spitting image of my Cork-born dad at the same age. Most people from around there look like me and my paternal family.

tac

dubhthach

RGM wrote: »

Slightly off-topic: My grandmother's maiden name is Ryan and she is from Galway. The family believes they are descended from the old Tipperary Mulryan sept, but I suspect this may be inaccurate and their surname is actually a less common anglicization of O'Ruadhain (Rowan, Ruane). Is this something I might be able to find out through testing of my own DNA? Or, as I obviously have a different surname, would a living male Ryan relative have to be tested?

Or am I misunderstanding DNA testing altogether...

In that scenario you would need a living male Ryan relative. The testing talk about above is purely on the male line. As the Y-Chromosome is only passed from Father to Son.

cathy Swift

A good example of this with regards to area around Limerick is a STR cluster known as "Irish Type III", this cluster is about 1100-1200 years old, it happens to be marked by it's own SNP L226 (R1b1a2a1a1b3a6a). This appears to be the cluster of the Dál gCáis.

Other good example is the "North West Irish Haplotye", this is marked by the M222 SNP. Trinity College published a study in 2006 linking this with the Uí Néill dynastical groups. We also see M222 results though in Northern Britain and of course among the related dynastical groupings of the Connachta (Uí Bhriúin, Uí Fhiachrach).


See - this is where I come in really. I'm not a geneticist but I'm an expert on early medieval Ireland. I've a study coming out this winter on the Uí Néill suggestion - from the point of view of somebody working in the field of early Irish history, there are major problems with the methodology which was used in the TCD paper in the links they made between 5th C ogam stones and later dynasties and in the genealogical information which they used to identify the M222 with the Uí Néill. Hardly surprising in that if geneticists were automatically experts in early Irish history, I'd be out of a job. I'm working on the Dál Cais paper at the minute. This is the kind of field where we need to collaborate across very different disciplines and there's a big learning curve for everybody involved but the trouble is, there are very few structures which allow for that - something like these boards are perhaps one of the best. I did get a grant a couple of years back to form a discussion group across disciplines but on the whole I found people are busy and unless its directly relevant to one's own work, it tends to be put on the long finger.

cathy Swift

Yes and Ireland is particularly bad in terms of church records in comparison with say, the situation in southern England. On the bright side - we have an unparalleled resource in Limerick - there's the Limerick City Museum Local History resources on their web page - which one can search for surnames in the Civil Survey, in a couple of 19th C records and - the one that I'm really excited about - a who's who of Limerick names in an extremely wide range of the medieval (Anglo-Norman) sources complied by Brian Hodkinson (curator of Limerick City Museum.) It won't necessarily give you your precise family but it can show if your surname is long established.

Another source worth looking at are the trade directories from the 18th C - there's a woman who's just done a Ph.D on these in the Limerick area and I think you can get some references on the RIA Historical Atlas of Limerick. Try Eneclann CDs as well - they've a load of very interesting stuff including trade directories though some of theirs are 19th C I think

dubhthach

cathy Swift wrote: »

See - this is where I come in really. I'm not a geneticist but I'm an expert on early medieval Ireland. I've a study coming out this winter on the Uí Néill suggestion - from the point of view of somebody working in the field of early Irish history, there are major problems with the methodology which was used in the TCD paper in the links they made between 5th C ogam stones and later dynasties and in the genealogical information which they used to identify the M222 with the Uí Néill. Hardly surprising in that if geneticists were automatically experts in early Irish history, I'd be out of a job. I'm working on the Dál Cais paper at the minute. This is the kind of field where we need to collaborate across very different disciplines and there's a big learning curve for everybody involved but the trouble is, there are very few structures which allow for that - something like these boards are perhaps one of the best. I did get a grant a couple of years back to form a discussion group across disciplines but on the whole I found people are busy and unless its directly relevant to one's own work, it tends to be put on the long finger.

Indeed well several general issues with the Trinity paper. One they assumed that Niall (if he did exist) was the first carrier of M222 SNP. In reality it's probably at least 1800-2000 years old. The other issue is that it's found in Southern Scotland/Northern England. In general the "genetic diversity" is higher there then in in Irish samples. Higher diversity is more likely to point towards point of origin.

Another issue obviously in their research they pointed to a high concentration in West of Ireland (Roscommon/Mayo). Interesting of course we have seen Uí Bhriúin (O'Connor, McDonagh, McDermot) and Uí Fhiacrach (O'Shaugnhessy, O'Dowd) come back as M222+. Of course the semi-mythical history claims that of course the Uí Bhriúin and Uí Fhiachrach were descended from Niall's half brothers (Brion and Fiachrae.)

"A Set of Distinctive Marker Values Defines a Y-STR Signature
for Gaelic Dalcassian Families" (2009)
http://www.jogg.info/51/files/Wright.pdf

Interesting most Tyrone O'Neills aren't M222+
"Insights Into the O’Neills of Ireland from DNA Testing" (2006)
http://www.jogg.info/22/ONeill.pdf

"Larkin DNA Project - Ancestral Parish Sampling on the Shannon River" (2010)
http://www.jogg.info/62/files/Larkin.pdf

civis_liberalis

Hi,

Do you have your quota of Galwegians?

If not, will you be taking the swabs in Galway City.

Very interesting study. Either way I will be very interested to hear of your findings.

cathy Swift

We're still hunting Galwegians - I attach a list of the surnames or you can check Facebook DNA of founding families of Galway. If you're one of the relevant surnames, come to Kellys bar, Bridge St at 8 pm on 21st October and we'll be testing people there - if you want to be sure to be one of the people tested, register your name on www.leicestersurnames.org.uk. Also if you're from Roscommon, we'll be in Tulsk in the Rathcroghan Heritage Centre at 11 on Monday 22nd October - we're using Roscommon for our control group so we don't mind which surnames you have if you're from that county.
Cathy

Brennans Row

Wanted! Limerick Men with Viking Blood for Tests

By Anne Sheridan (Limerick Leader)

IF you ever wondered whether you are you descended from the Vikings or the Normans, now is the time to find out.

A network of academics led by Dr Catherine Swift of Mary Immaculate College, and Dr Turi King of the Department of Genetics, University of Leicester are using scientific techniques and the traditional tools of the historian in an attempt to identify what percentage of the Irish population are descended from Vikings.

Volunteers with certain surnames - including English, Stokes and Noonan, amongst many others - will be tested at Fennessey’s pub, New Street, Sunday, October 21, at 12 noon.
“Limerick is a very interesting location for our project as it is known to be a vital Viking trading centre,” said Dr Swift.

In addition to Limerick, the study is also being replicated in Galway and Wexford to discover information on medieval patterns of migration and family movements between the major towns of Ireland.

They are also hoping to examine the extent to which the Vikings in different parts of the country intermarried with the native Irish. To do this, the group, have identified specific surnames which are found in the medieval records and townland names of Limerick city and county.

As the researchers are primarily interested in Y chromosomes, they will only collect samples from men. A swab of cheek cells will be taken to extract DNA from this. Various tests will be done on the Y chromosome DNA, and in some cases other parts of your DNA, to look at patterns of variation.

The information received will be kept strictly confidential and if it is ever published in scientific papers, it will be completely anonymous.

See http://leicestersurnamesproject.org.uk/ for the surnames of those they wish to apply.

thadiisgirl

A general reply really.

We (well, my brother) have recently taken part in the Family DNA testing programme to ascertain a specific relationship with some possible family connectons in the US. Sadly, it came back indicating no relation, in spite of the same surname and place of origin in Ireland - Killukin, Roscommon, to be precise.

Turns out we are 'J2' and not 'R1b1' (which is what we expected to be - we had exchanged photos with the US people and some of the facial resemblances were/still are astounding) and although do have DNA connections with people with the same surnames from Ireland, they are tending to originate from Co Mayo.

I know Roscommon is right as my 80-odd year old Mum had many a conversation with one of my Grandads, whose father was the Roscommon man..The Carrick on Shannon side.

Not really sure where to go with this information next, to be honest.

Any ideas?

dubhthach

thadiisgirl wrote: »

A general reply really.

We (well, my brother) have recently taken part in the Family DNA testing programme to ascertain a specific relationship with some possible family connectons in the US. Sadly, it came back indicating no relation, in spite of the same surname and place of origin in Ireland - Killukin, Roscommon, to be precise.

Turns out we are 'J2' and not 'R1b1' (which is what we expected to be - we had exchanged photos with the US people and some of the facial resemblances were/still are astounding) and although do have DNA connections with people with the same surnames from Ireland, they are tending to originate from Co Mayo.

I know Roscommon is right as my 80-odd year old Mum had many a conversation with one of my Grandads, whose father was the Roscommon man..The Carrick on Shannon side.

Not really sure where to go with this information next, to be honest.

Any ideas?

J2 potentially points to you been in Ireland longer then us R1b types. It could be potentially linked to spread of agriculture during the neolithic. What surnames are you seeing connections to?

You have to remember of course that the Y-Chromosome is only 2% of a man's DNA. It has no bearing on physical anthropology. You could be white blue eyed, blonded haired Swede with Haplotype Q, or you could be a Navajo Indian that was also haplogroup Q.

Stuff like skin colour, eye colour, facial features are part of your wider autosomanal DNA which is inherited from all your ancestors. In comparison your Y would only map to one male ancestor per generation. Technically 10 generations ago a person would have 2^10 = 1024 ancestors (in reality lot less due to marriages between 3rd/4th/5th cousins). In such scenario the Y a man carries only represents a piece of DNA inherited from 1 of those potential 1024 people (512 men / 512 women)

thadiisgirl

Gosh, that's interesting Dub. I'm a bit reluctant to post surnames as I'm still using the one I'm most interested in....

I have a pretty standard Irish emigrant family history I guess - all of my G-Grandparents originate from somewhere in Ireland and all came over to England from 1860 or so onwards.

We are having a frustrating search for a particular G-Grandparent's (name of Thaddeus and the one whose surname I have) siblings' descendants as we're 99% sure he had at least 4 brothers - hence the DNA testing, as we thought we'd the jackpot! Still, we've made some US friends out of the whole thing!

We're going to keep trying to find things out though...

We're pretty much up to speed with the other G-Grandparents' family histories, such as they are - but we also have another one with not even a placename in Ireland to start off our research.

thadiisgirl

Dub - the other surnames originating from Mayo with links to our own are Callaghan, Megill and Sands, if that is of any interest...

darrenoconaill

Hi

I took part in this DNA study in Limerick last October and haven't heard anything back. Just wondering did anyone on here also take part and if so have you heard anything? Also emailed Catherine Swift and got no reply from her either. Has somebody stolen my DNA?!

pedroeibar1

darrenoconaill wrote: »

Hi

Has somebody stolen my DNA?!

Brings new meaning to a zombie thread;)

dubhthach

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

Brings new meaning to a zombie thread;)

To reignite the debate on "Zombie thread's". I see that there is a conference about Battle of Clontarf happening today/tomorrow. One of the talks been held is:

‘The unique nature of Dál Cais DNA’
Catherine Swift

https://www.tcd.ie/history/assets/pdf/clontarf/TCD%20Battle%20of%20clontarf-Leaflet_LR3.pdf

If I'd had known about this I would have taken the day off work and gone to it. Hopefully Dr. Swift will be publishing a paper lately about this.

I believe that Baron Inchiquin (The O'Brien) has had his DNA tested in the past.

InTheTrees

darrenoconaill wrote: »

Hi

I took part in this DNA study in Limerick last October and haven't heard anything back. Just wondering did anyone on here also take part and if so have you heard anything? Also emailed Catherine Swift and got no reply from her either. Has somebody stolen my DNA?!

Did you ever hear anything back?

Seems like bad form to abandon the volunteers.