War of Independence/Civil War Veteran Pensions

Il Trap

Hi,

A query that maybe somebody on here can help with. Looking for a quick answer if possible, as I just need the info for a very brief reference.

My question relates to the criteria for receipt of a military pension from the Free State government/Irish government post '48. Basically, what age would a veteran need to be to begin to receive such a pension? Also what year were ER/WoI/CW pensions initiated?

Hope this isn't too vague. Any help/clarification would be welcome.

Dr.Nightdub

There were two Military Service Pensions Acts, one in 1924 and one in 1934. I'm more familiar with the 1924 one as that was the one under which my granda was awarded his pension. There was no age requirement - he was 27 when his pension award was confirmed.

The payment was based on X years' service @ Y rate per year of service. In his case, he'd joined the Volunteers in 1917, but because he didn't have a current address for his O/C of that period, they couldn't get the O/C to vouch for him so they deemed his service to have only begun in 1919. For some reason, the year April 1920 to March 1921 counted as two years' service, as did the period July 1922 - March 1923, so he was counted as having seven and a half years' service.

The payment rate depended on the person's rank in the Defence Forces on 1st February 1924, or if they'd left the National Army / Defence Forces before that date, whatever rank they held at the time of their discharge; there were five different grades, depending on the rank:
- Private or NCO: £5 per year of service
- 2nd Lieut., 1st Lieut. or Captain: £10 per year of service
- Commandant or Major: £15 per year of service
- Colonel or Major-General: £20 per year of service
- Higher than Major-General: £25 per year of service

Linking the payment to the person's rank in the FS Army obviously ruled out anyone who'd opposed the Treaty i.e. anti-Treaty IRA, Cumann na mBan and Citizens Army, which is why FF brought in the 1934 Act. I don't know the details of how that one worked except that it was a lot more stringent than the 1924 one, with statements from referees, former O/Cs, etc being examined by a judge. My granda's pension file doesn't contain any such statements even though he'd given a fairly stellar list of referees, so my guess is apart from being docked the first two years, they pretty much just rubber-stamped his application. The fact of him having been a Colonel in 1924 may also have meant he got a softer ride than lower ranks.

I've seen figures that point to less than one in five applications under the 1924 Act as having been approved, no idea what the figure was for the 1934 Act. There were 21,000 applications under the first one and approx. 80,000 under the second one.

Il Trap

Dr. Nightclub,

Sincere thanks for your detailed, knowledgeable reply. I didn't hold out alot of hope of a comprehensive reply but you have saved me considerable time and effort with regard to what is essentially a minor clarification for the piece I'm working on.

The time you took to respond is genuinely much appreciated so thank you.

NY68

My Grandfather was active in the IRA in Donegal from 1919 to 1921. As far as I know he had no involvement in the Civil war. Your point linking the cert to DF rank is very interesting. There was no forgive and forget thinking then. I have received information from archives which make very intersting reading on his activities during this time. He most definatly did not receive a softer line from the DOD and never recieved a service pension. He joined the DF in 1927 (when fianna fail came into power - conincidence?).

Dr.Nightdub

NY68, by a complete coincidence my granda was appointed Adjutant of 1st Northern Division in Nov 1921. He wasn't originally from Donegal, but from Belfast - he'd been captured in Antrim the previous April and interned in the Curragh but he escaped from there in Oct; he couldn't go back home to Belfast, as he'd only have been lifted again, so GHQ posted him to Donegal instead.

Balaclava1991

Most who were on paper as members of the IRA never did a tap but got a pension all the same.

In most units only a handful of men were prepared to shoot a policeman and gets his blood and brains on their clothes.

In the posed photographs of local sections and companies the men are posing with the same handful of rifles in each picture.

kabakuyu

Another thread on the issue here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=87535264

Best to ignore some posters though.;)

Santa Cruz

NY68 wrote: »

My Grandfather was active in the IRA in Donegal from 1919 to 1921. As far as I know he had no involvement in the Civil war. Your point linking the cert to DF rank is very interesting. There was no forgive and forget thinking then. I have received information from archives which make very intersting reading on his activities during this time. He most definatly did not receive a softer line from the DOD and never recieved a service pension. He joined the DF in 1927 (when fianna fail came into power - conincidence?).

Fianna Fail were not in power until 1932. The second Military Pensions act was established in 1934. It was meant to pull in those Volunteers who were anti Treaty and wouldn't take the Free State shilling

Santa Cruz

Balaclava1991 wrote: »

Most who were on paper as members of the IRA never did a tap but got a pension all the same.

In most units only a handful of men were prepared to shoot a policeman and gets his blood and brains on their clothes.

In the posed photographs of local sections and companies the men are posing with the same handful of rifles in each picture.

It is not everyone who has the courage to stand up and shoot someone. There were many Volunteers who never did any shooting but played significant parts as support around ambushes, gathering intelligence, mining roads, standing guard while flying columns rested.

NY68

Santa Cruz wrote: »

Fianna Fail were not in power until 1932. The second Military Pensions act was established in 1934. It was meant to pull in those Volunteers who were anti Treaty and wouldn't take the Free State shilling

I stand corrected, thank you.

NY68

I dont suppose you have any details of his service there?

Dr.Nightdub

NY68 wrote: »

I dont suppose you have any details of his service there?

There's a book by Liam Ó Duibhir called "The Donegal Awakening" which mentions Charles and Edward Carr from Cashel, Gortnahork. In a raid on Edward's house, a letter was found from his brother Charles urging him to burn Falcaragh barracks. This letter was used as the basis for trying Charles at a field general court-martial in Derry on 22nd April 1921, but for whatever reason, Charles was acquited.

Your best bet would be to track down a copy of the Derry Journal of 25th April 1921, as that's the reference Ó Duibhir uses. The report of the court-martial in the paper is probably more extensive than the excerpt quoted in the book - the NLI will definitely have a copy, or some of the libraries in Donegal / Derry may also have it in their archives.

There's no mention of either brother in "Donegal & The Civil War" by the same author.

Have you tried checking the Bureau of Military History website? There's a search engine on there where you can look people up by name.

I read in this morning's Irish Times that records relating to 60,000 military service pensions will go online in a couple of weeks - even if neither Edward nor Charles applied for pensions themselves, it may well be that they were mentioned by others who did.

Hope this helps.

NY68

Thanks for the info. I just read that book and found it a good informative read. Excuse my ignorance but what is the 'NLI'?

The Military archives is a great site, I look forward to those records going online.

Dr.Nightdub

NLI = National Library of Ireland

The pension applications make very interesting reading, pensions weren't given out easily, and the pension assessors seemed dismissive of the applications, and the hardships endured by people.
The pensions themselves seem very significant in a time of extreme poverty, a relative of mine received £90 per year, when he was only earning £3 per week working.