How fast to do VO2 max and strides?

RedB

I'm following a P+D plan for DCM and have a query about what pace I should be doing for the above.

It calls for 5k race pace for VO2 max intervals (e.g. 5x800m) but I find I want to go faster as its only 800m at a time. So I pick a faster max pace I think I can sustain and repeat so that I'm pushing myself hard. Is this wrong?

Doing strides (e.g. 8 x 100m) should I be aiming to hit full sprint speed over the final section after building into it OR should I just be concentrating on having an extended stride or other element of running form so that I end up going fast but only as a byproduct of the main focus on form?
Also are the strides meant to be run with high knees and longer exaggerated strides or stretched strides and higher turnover / cadence?

RayCun

RedB wrote: »

It calls for 5k race pace for VO2 max intervals (e.g. 5x800m) but I find I want to go faster as its only 800m at a time. So I pick a faster max pace I think I can sustain and repeat so that I'm pushing myself hard. Is this wrong?

Can you maintain the same pace for all five intervals? What kind of recovery are you taking in between in each one? How recent is the 5k race that gave you a slower pace?

RedB wrote: »

Doing strides (e.g. 8 x 100m) should I be aiming to hit full sprint speed over the final section after building into it OR should I just be concentrating on having an extended stride or other element of running form so that I end up going fast but only as a byproduct of the main focus on form?
Also are the strides meant to be run with high knees and longer exaggerated strides or stretched strides and higher turnover / cadence?

Not full sprint speed, but close to it - backed off enough so that you don't tense up and you can maintain good form through the strides.
You shouldn't be taking exaggerated or stretched strides. Lift your knees, yes, but your foot shouldn't land further in front of you.

RedB

RayCun wrote: »

Can you maintain the same pace for all five intervals? What kind of recovery are you taking in between in each one? How recent is the 5k race that gave you a slower pace?

Not full sprint speed, but close to it - backed off enough so that you don't tense up and you can maintain good form through the strides.
You shouldn't be taking exaggerated or stretched strides. Lift your knees, yes, but your foot shouldn't land further in front of you.

I can maintain the same pace for all intervals but I don't think I'd be able to keep that pace for 5km. I haven't done a 5km race in ages but I'm gauging it off a 10km race last week. Recovery would be a very slow 400m lap so approx 2-3mins. I'm happy to push the pace up for the shorter duration knowing that I've got a chance to recover. I'm feeling the squeeze as they progress and its teeth gritting time at the end.

Thanks for the feedback on the foot fall and stride speed. Do you know should I be doing anything else such as some heel flick effort as part of the stride. I'm just a bit at a loss as to the purpose of the strides - if its a form thing what should be the focus

RayCun

Your recoveries should be 50-70% of your interval time, is that about right? The main thing is to complete the session at about the same pace, so if you can do that I wouldn't worry about going too fast.

For the strides -
Head high, eyes on the horizon
Shoulders loose
Arms pumping
Hands open, not clenched
Hips forward
Knees high
...and all while running hard. Fast enough that you feel you're in a proper sprinting motion, weight shifted forward on your foot.

Is that not enough to focus on?:)

RedB

RayCun wrote: »

Your recoveries should be 50-70% of your interval time, is that about right? The main thing is to complete the session at about the same pace, so if you can do that I wouldn't worry about going too fast.

For the strides -
Head high, eyes on the horizon
Shoulders loose
Arms pumping
Hands open, not clenched
Hips forward
Knees high
...and all while running hard. Fast enough that you feel you're in a proper sprinting motion, weight shifted forward on your foot.

Is that not enough to focus on?:)

Perfect response. Thank you
1) I won't worry about going too fast in intervals :cool:
2) I already have the high head, loose shoulders and open hands stuff going and I think the arms naturally pump once the pace goes up as do the high knees and now that you mention it the weight shifting. I'll have to check about the hips forward thing as I'm not aware of that as well as the footfall sooooooooooo plenty to focus on actually rather than speed or stretching Who knew there was so much going on with strides!:D

Thanks again. Much appreciate the feedback

Krusty_Clown

The thing about the P&D Vo2max sessions is that they vary in length over time, getting progressively longer, until you run 3x1,600 10-12 days before your goal marathon. You should be running the 600/800/1000/1200/1600 at a consistent pace, so I would suggest that if you are finding them too easy, you should shorten the recovery rather than run them faster (doesn't P&D give you a range for recovery times?). You certainly shouldn't find the 3x1mile @5k pace easy!

RedB

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

The thing about the P&D Vo2max sessions is that they vary in length over time, getting progressively longer, until you run 3x1,600 10-12 days before your goal marathon. You should be running the 600/800/1000/1200/1600 at a consistent pace, so I would suggest that if you are finding them too easy, you should shorten the recovery rather than run them faster (doesn't P&D give you a range for recovery times?). You certainly shouldn't find the 3x1mile @5k pace easy!

That's where I was conflicted as maybe my original / current 5k pace is too soft and as I put in the training it'll improve to what my sustainable interval pace is . Is there greater benefit to be had from shorter recovery than faster pace? Guess I'll have to find out :rolleyes:
The recovery times are 50%-90% of the interval time so I'll try the 50% version at 5k pace next week. I don't doubt that I'll find 3x1mile @ 5k pace a challenge but its still easier than 5k @ 5k pace

Krusty_Clown

RedB wrote: »

I don't doubt that I'll find 3x1mile @ 5k pace a challenge but its still easier than 5k @ 5k pace

Not necessarily! I have been doing tempo sessions of late that include 2 x 20 minutes at 5:50/mile pace etc. I recently ran 13.1 miles @5:53/mile, which felt a damn site easier than those 20 minute tempo repeats. Racing always just feels easier!

I would definitely go to 50% rest between intervals as your first port of call, before changing anything else (e.g. running them quicker).

wrstan

A tip I found very helpful in my intervals this year, both on the track (2/4/800's) and longer intervals (1/2 miles), was to keep my recoveries dynamic. In other words keep moving. I'm not sure what the conventional wisdom is on this but my approach was based around only hitting the lap button on my watch and only pressing stop at the very end of the session. In other words I would move straight from a speed interval into a jogged recovery without stopping and doubling over! I found that when I stopped it was much harder to discipline myself not to take too generous a recovery and as a result I reckon I was getting speed benefit from the session but not enough endurance benefit! I think that by keeping the recoveries dymnamic I was also more likely to run my intervals at the right pace and not try to go eyeballs out for each one.

Hope that makes some sense!

RedB

wrstan wrote: »

Hope that makes some sense!

Perfect. Yes, definitely a fan of dynamic recovery (makes me sound like Batman ).

Another separate query I had related to pace v HR and which should be the main target.
I had a nice med-long run this morning and I was rested and in good form so I floated along at PMP+10% pace with a low HR of around 76%MHR. Again, I felt like I was taking it a bit too easy although the recommended HR range for that run is 74-84%. Other days don't feel so easy so should I have pushed it up to the higher end of the HR range while the going was good?

Krusty_Clown

Generally speaking, I ignore the P&D heart ranges, as I find that they just don't apply to me. That's the thing about heat rate, it's quite subjective. When I do use HR information, it's for relative comparisons (e.g. comparing one run to another similar run), but even then it's still pretty subjective, as I might have had more coffee on a particular morning, more sleep, cooler temperatures, more wind, etc. Then again, perhaps I'm just lazy and don't try hard enough.

tergat

RedB wrote: »

I'm following a P+D plan for DCM and have a query about what pace I should be doing for the above.

It calls for 5k race pace for VO2 max intervals (e.g. 5x800m) but I find I want to go faster as its only 800m at a time. So I pick a faster max pace I think I can sustain and repeat so that I'm pushing myself hard. Is this wrong?

Doing strides (e.g. 8 x 100m) should I be aiming to hit full sprint speed over the final section after building into it OR should I just be concentrating on having an extended stride or other element of running form so that I end up going fast but only as a byproduct of the main focus on form?
Also are the strides meant to be run with high knees and longer exaggerated strides or stretched strides and higher turnover / cadence?

RedB,

Vo2 Max speed is roughly the speed one can hold for a maximum of 6-12 mins in an all out effort, vo2 Max does not equal 5km pace as is common place in many message boards. Typically it is about 3km race pace for most although famed distance guru Joe Vigil has expressed it as current mile pace. You are safe staying around 3km pace assuming you can run one in 8-12 min range.

5*800m at Current 5km pace is not a taxing workout for most assuming a 2-3 min recovery. Now if you try 4-5*800m @ Current 3km pace you see the difference. For a 5km workout try the following progressions over a 8 week period:

- 14-16*400m
- 6-8*600m
- 6-7*800m
- 5-6*1000m
- 4-5*1200m
- 3*1 Mile

Strides always done at roughly 3km pace working down to 1500m pace for the last few while always working on correct form and relaxation.

I hope that helps.

Tergat

RedB

tergat wrote: »

I hope that helps.

Tergat

Definitely. Thank you.