Schools & Traffic.

gerocks

Now that the kids are back in school, everyones journey into Dublin City centre takes at least twice as long as it did over the Summer months. Is it time for all schools to begin at 8am? Surely it benefits everyone to do this? Less traffic congestion equals less accidents, stress, pollution & quicker public transport. The kids get an extra hour of daylight & employers get their employees into work on time. I can't see any negative aspect to this. I don't have kids so there might be some obvious reason that I can't see as to why this hasn't been done years ago.

schemingbohemia

The main problem is pupils getting their parents to drive them to school, if they used public transport it would ease some of the congestion. I walked or cycled or got the bus to school (fadó fadó) but it seems most kids now get lifts (or drive themselves!).

gerocks

schemingbohemia wrote: »

The main problem is pupils getting their parents to drive them to school, if they used public transport it would ease some of the congestion. I walked or cycled or got the bus to school (fadó fadó) but it seems most kids now get lifts (or drive themselves!).

If parents prefer to drive their kids to school, that's their decision but if it's done an hour earlier, there's less congestion. Simple!

LXFlyer

It's not just parents - most teachers drive as well! People tend to forget about them.

seamus

I can see the logic in what you propose, but I don't think the outcome would be as predictable as you outline it.

Traffic will end up a little more churned with people going to the school and back. So rather than a jam of everyone going one way at 8:30, you now have a jam in every direction at 7:55 as people on the return run meet people on the commute. The biggest effect would likely just be an extension of the current rush hour. So rather than stupidly heavy traffic between 8am and 9am, you'd now have plain old heavy traffic from 7am to 9am.

The effect on employers may not be static either. If schools start an hour earlier, then everyone has to go to bed an hour earlier. So employees may shift their working day so that it starts at 8am or 8:15am, and then you have the exact same problem.

Really the solution is to come up with methods of discouraging parents from driving their kids to school. You could start by not allowing parents to drive onto school grounds at 9am and 4pm, but that could cause even more chaos with people parking on the main road to drop off their passengers.

LXFlyer

As someone who is an early riser I'd definitely say no to this!!

I like my hassle free commute at 0630/0700 and I really don't want it slowed down.

Sponge Bob

it is worse because bus tickets under 3 miles cost a fortune now

LXFlyer

The schoolchild fare is €0.70 with a LEAP card regardless of distance.

That is hardly a fortune!!

Mrs OBumble

seamus wrote: »

Really the solution is to come up with methods of discouraging parents from driving their kids to school.

A network of school buses that are available to all kids and not just the culchies!

LXFlyer

The colleges and universities are also restarting and this has a big impact also.

Seaswimmer

schemingbohemia wrote: »

The main problem is pupils getting their parents to drive them to school, if they used public transport it would ease some of the congestion. I walked or cycled or got the bus to school (fadó fadó) but it seems most kids now get lifts (or drive themselves!).

It always amuses me when the old chestnut of kids being driven to school rears its head at this time of the year. I cycle along the Rock Road every morning and almost every single car I pass has 1 person in it. The only cars I see with multiple occupancy are usually parents driving a number of children to school.
You could argue that these parents are being more effecient in their car use. the vast majority of adults who drive into town for work have other transport choices. Most young children need to be driven to school until they get older..

i fully accept that older children should make their own way to school but adults who choose to drive a relatively short distance on their own when there are alternatives available should look at their own behaviour..

Surveyor11

Have to agree - my area (Carpenterstown) is clogged with cars trying to get to school in the mornings . I'd say I'm unusual in that I cycle with my child to the school. Almost all of my neighbours will quiet happily ferry the kids the half a mile or so to school, then complian about the traffic / parking. One neighbour bought the kids a Wii to get the kids a chance to exercise, which amused me.

Dublin is unique in Europe - We have a huge dependance on cars - Ok, our public transport isn't great but there are plenty of people who will drive a very short distance to work or drive over bus / train / cycling.

Carawaystick

gerocks wrote: »

Now that the kids are back in school, everyones journey into Dublin City centre takes at least twice as long as it did over the Summer months. Is it time for all schools to begin at 8am? Surely it benefits everyone to do this? Less traffic congestion equals less accidents, stress, pollution & quicker public transport. The kids get an extra hour of daylight & employers get their employees into work on time. I can't see any negative aspect to this. I don't have kids so there might be some obvious reason that I can't see as to why this hasn't been done years ago.

Firstly where is your evidence that everyone's journey into Dublin city centre takes at twice as long? Do trains/trams busses on QBC's take twice as long? no they don't.

Secondly, why not change office hours to 8am? or 10am?

As you don't have kids, you will not appreciate the fact that they wake up the same time on Weekends as weekdays, so will not have to suffer being awakened at (or well before) the crack of dawn on Saturdays or Sundays.
There is also the safety aspect of children travelling to school in darkness.

You mention employers getting their employees into work on time. It is surely the responsibility of workers to get themselves to work on time. Do we really need the state to intervene drastically for this?

A lot of the congestion is due to people with children taking holidays during school holidays and therefore being less workers going to work during the summer, not so much children getting lifts to school.

Lastly one of the main reasons this hasn't been done years ago may be explained by looking at the pay of existing teachers vs. new teachers

LXFlyer

I can vouch from this morning certainly that (I was leaving later for once) the journey time on one of my buses was increased from 45 to 60 minutes due to extra traffic and longer dwell times due to additional passengers.

schemingbohemia

Seaswimmer wrote: »

It always amuses me when the old chestnut of kids being driven to school rears its head at this time of the year. I cycle along the Rock Road every morning and almost every single car I pass has 1 person in it. The only cars I see with multiple occupancy are usually parents driving a number of children to school.
You could argue that these parents are being more effecient in their car use. the vast majority of adults who drive into town for work have other transport choices. Most young children need to be driven to school until they get older..

i fully accept that older children should make their own way to school but adults who choose to drive a relatively short distance on their own when there are alternatives available should look at their own behaviour..

So how do you explain the increase in congestion between 8-9 in September then? Are you saying there's no link between the two?

Seaswimmer

schemingbohemia wrote: »

So how do you explain the increase in congestion between 8-9 in September then? Are you saying there's no link between the two?

No. I fully accept that there are more cars on the road in September because the schools are back. This is entirely predictable so you should be able to plan around it. Parents with school going children dont have the flexibility that other people have. They generally have to leave and arrive at the same time each school morning. If congestion is affecting you so badly then you need to change your travelling patterns and explore alternatives..

markpb

schemingbohemia wrote: »

So how do you explain the increase in congestion between 8-9 in September then? Are you saying there's no link between the two?

Your post reminds me of a cartoon (which I can't find now) depicting a massive traffic jam with every motorist thinking "Traffic wouldn't be so bad if those other people didn't drive".

Of course there is additional traffic when the schools open but it doesn't make that traffic bad, it just means there's more of it. In the same way that people think school children should walk, cycle or take public transport to work, *they* could also walk, cycle or take public transport.

seamus

markpb wrote: »

Your post reminds me of a cartoon (which I can't find now) depicting a massive traffic jam with every motorist thinking "Traffic wouldn't be so bad if those other people didn't drive".

I actually read Seaswimmer's post in the same way - that the schools don't actually affect the traffic at all. But thanks to him for clarifying what he means.

Though mums on the school run probably don't cause the entire problem. I'd say a number of people who walk, cycle or bus to work in the summer, switch to the car in September so they can drop the kids off en route. I'd also imagine a not insignificant number of people switch to the car once morning temps drop below 10C, because people in general are complete pussies.

fletch

gerocks wrote: »

Now that the kids are back in school, everyones journey into Dublin City centre takes at least twice as long as it did over the Summer months.

No with the strong westerly wind my cycle commute in the mornings has reduced by a few minutes for the last week.

Twoandahalfmen

gerocks wrote: »

Now that the kids are back in school, everyones journey into Dublin City centre takes at least twice as long as it did over the Summer months. Is it time for all schools to begin at 8am? Surely it benefits everyone to do this? Less traffic congestion equals less accidents, stress, pollution & quicker public transport. The kids get an extra hour of daylight & employers get their employees into work on time. I can't see any negative aspect to this. I don't have kids so there might be some obvious reason that I can't see as to why this hasn't been done years ago.

I'd rather stay in bed for another hour to be honest

Chris_5339762

It is worse but even in the height of traffic, my commute takes 20 - 25 minutes to work. There is a bus stop 10 minutes from my front door and 10 minutes from work. That bus takes between 30 and 40 minutes to travel the same distance as it heads through estates.

So even though the traffic is worse, with the correct knowledge of rat runs a 25 minute car commute is far better than the 35 minute bus commute that doesn't even include walking to/from the bus.

schemingbohemia

markpb wrote: »

Your post reminds me of a cartoon (which I can't find now) depicting a massive traffic jam with every motorist thinking "Traffic wouldn't be so bad if those other people didn't drive".

Of course there is additional traffic when the schools open but it doesn't make that traffic bad, it just means there's more of it. In the same way that people think school children should walk, cycle or take public transport to work, *they* could also walk, cycle or take public transport.

I use public transport myself so my post was contradicting the obvious error in seaswimmers post that he later admitted was wrong.

dowlingm

An earlier start could be counterproductive at some ages. If trial programmes underway at some Canadian schools pan out, second level classes might start LATER because teens learn better during the late morning. Given teens should also be able to make their own way to school, at least in urban areas, maybe that's where some migration of AM peak travel could happen.

monument

How about we forget apparently radical ideas like changing hours and focus on cracking on with the radical idea of getting more people on bicycles, their own two feet and on public transport?

Yawns

Just change the bus lanes to also be used as car pool lanes. Anybody driving with 1 or more passengers can drive in the lane. People driving alone caught in it get done for it like if they are caught driving in a bus lane atm. Set up a camera to catch offenders on some/all of them if need be.

Of course also more encouragement for walking/ cycling if possible.

Yawns

Of course it won't be magiced away overnight. I know someone who lives about 5 minutes walk away from their child's current school. She refuses to walk but instead drives every morning. If she walked it would be a simple walk on the path through a gateway in the fence, cross at the lights and up another path into the school grounds.

Instead she drives through the housing estate to the single exit/entrance, which is on the far side from her house and has to wait for a gap in traffic on a main road. Then she must wait at traffic lights before driving a short distance to another set of lights where she will be turning onto a busy dual carriageway so the light sequence is in favour for traffic already on it so she must wait. Then when she turns she has to drive a few hundred meters and turn at the next set of lights, which is the set of lights that's just about 200 meters from her front door. When she turns at this set of lights, she has to drive along the same path but now must find a place to park as there is no parking in the school grounds. It's very limited spots for staff only.

She does this 5 days a week when dropping and collecting her child. She sees nothing wrong with this and won't change. She is not the only person I know that does this and I am sure there are many many others like her.


I've just done a quick google map of her route and it's roughly a 600 meter walk from her house to the school entrance. The route she actually does because she drives however is 1.8k/m and roughly 5 mins but actually takes longer in mornings because of traffic buildup at the lights. Or it's a 5 min walk literally...

monument

Yawns wrote: »

Just change the bus lanes to also be used as car pool lanes. Anybody driving with 1 or more passengers can drive in the lane. People driving alone caught in it get done for it like if they are caught driving in a bus lane atm. Set up a camera to catch offenders on some/all of them if need be.

Of course also more encouragement for walking/ cycling if possible.

Dublin's bus lanes are already highly compromised by taxis and cyclists.

In any case, car pool lanes are usually implemented on motorways, so why not put them there here?

Yawns

monument wrote: »

Dublin's bus lanes are already highly compromised by taxis and cyclists.

In any case, car pool lanes are usually implemented on motorways, so why not put them there here?

How many motorways run through the city centre?

monument

My point is trying to add car pooling cars to already busy bus lanes in the city centre will harm the value of bus lanes too much -- and that goes more so in the city centre than anywhere else.

the boss of me

My twelve year old just started secondary school and I'd be happy for her to walk the mile or so to school. However the problem is the schoolbag, I weighed it this afternoon when I collected her from school ... it weighed in at 22lbs !!

Conventional wisdom would recommened that a childs' backpack should weigh no more than 10% of their bodyweight. Given that my daughters bag is over twice the recommended limit I will continue to drive her whenever I can.

Cookie_Monster

the boss of me wrote: »

My twelve year old just started secondary school and I'd be happy for her to walk the mile or so to school. However the problem is the schoolbag, I weighed it this afternoon when I collected her from school ... it weighed in at 22lbs !!

Conventional wisdom would recommened that a childs' backpack should weigh no more than 10% of their bodyweight. Given that my daughters bag is over twice the recommended limit I will continue to drive her whenever I can.

that's a ridiculous reason. 10kg is not heavy and a proper bag will distribute the weight correctly. I never had to bring that much to or from school. That's what lockers are for, a bit of thinking and you can generally leave half the stuff either at home or in school.
If it is such a burden get a bike with a rack, problem solved and your kid will get some exercise too.

In my 5 years in secondary school the number of cyclists dropped dramatically. in 1st year the bike pen was full and the entire rear wall of the school was full of bikes, by 6th year you could get a space in the pen every day. All while maintaining pupil numbers. The amount getting lifts rose significantly in the time. People are just lazy and use all sorts of excuses for not letting their kids walk / cycle. It's too dangerous, bus is too slow, takes to long to walk, it's on my way to work anyway etc.

M three

Yawns wrote: »

Just change the bus lanes to also be used as car pool lanes. Anybody driving with 1 or more passengers can drive in the lane. People driving alone caught in it get done for it like if they are caught driving in a bus lane atm. Set up a camera to catch offenders on some/all of them if need be.

Of course also more encouragement for walking/ cycling if possible.

Fixed cameras?
So when people alone in a car see where the cameras are they'll just duck out and back into the bus lane. cue lots of messing.
Or you have the cops keep an eye on this but apparently the resources arent there.
Its easier to police just buses and taxis using bus lanes, cops can see from a distance whats going on

Seaswimmer

the boss of me wrote: »

My twelve year old just started secondary school and I'd be happy for her to walk the mile or so to school. However the problem is the schoolbag, I weighed it this afternoon when I collected her from school ... it weighed in at 22lbs !!

Conventional wisdom would recommened that a childs' backpack should weigh no more than 10% of their bodyweight. Given that my daughters bag is over twice the recommended limit I will continue to drive her whenever I can.

A friend of mine who coaches a PLC in soccer reckons that we are storing up back problems for a whole generation by not letting them carry schoolbags. Think about when I started school 45 years ago. You carried your bag. As you got bigger the bag got heavier but you were getting stronger so you thought nothing of it.

I have to agree with CookieMonster in that there is something seriously wrong if your childs schoolbag weighs 22lbs EVERY DAY. However with modern backpacks (Jansport seems to be the preferred option) there is no excuse for not carrying a reasonable amount of weight.

I had 3 kids go through scouts and they were able to carry much more than that at young ages..

the boss of me

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

that's a ridiculous reason. 10kg is not heavy and a proper bag will distribute the weight correctly. I never had to bring that much to or from school. That's what lockers are for, a bit of thinking and you can generally leave half the stuff either at home or in school.
If it is such a burden get a bike with a rack, problem solved and your kid will get some exercise too.

In my 5 years in secondary school the number of cyclists dropped dramatically. in 1st year the bike pen was full and the entire rear wall of the school was full of bikes, by 6th year you could get a space in the pen every day. All while maintaining pupil numbers. The amount getting lifts rose significantly in the time. People are just lazy and use all sorts of excuses for not letting their kids walk / cycle. It's too dangerous, bus is too slow, takes to long to walk, it's on my way to work anyway etc.

Ridiculous is it ?? Have a quick read of this report so http://www.iea.cc/ECEE/pdfs/art0212.pdf .. This morning was even worse as she had to carry in her tracksuit for PE as well as her bag. As for cycling, by the time we get the bikes from the shed, faff about with bags and locks at both ends and cycle to school we could have driven there and back.

Slightly resent being called lazy btw as I took part in the Ring of Kerry cycle this year and will run Dublin marathon in five weeks time

Seaswimmer

the boss of me wrote: »

Ridiculous is it ?? Have a quick read of this report so http://www.iea.cc/ECEE/pdfs/art0212.pdf .. This morning was even worse as she had to carry in her tracksuit for PE as well as her bag. As for cycling, by the time we get the bikes from the shed, faff about with bags and locks at both ends and cycle to school we could have driven there and back.

Slightly resent being called lazy btw as I took part in the Ring of Kerry cycle this year and will run Dublin marathon in five weeks time

Interesting report. I would have thought there would be updated guidelines as the figure of 10% of bodyweight is from 1977. With modern backpack technology I thought the 10% figure might be increased. Also interesting to note that 1/3 of pupils wore the backpack (incorrectly) over 1 shoulder.
Having said all that 10% of the average childs weight today is probably much heavier than 10% of the average childs weight in 1977 so we have unfitter children trying to lift heavier weights.

Iwannahurl

the boss of me wrote: »

As for cycling, by the time we get the bikes from the shed, faff about with bags and locks at both ends and cycle to school we could have driven there and back.

What's the actual distance?

corktina

It's just not possible to start school at 8am so that the school run traffic doesnt interfer with the commuters. It's quite obvious that many of those doing the school run will be dropping their kids on the way to work and if those kids started at 8am instead of 9, then there would be noone thereat 3 pm to pick them up.

Most retail stores open at 8am or earlier and many industrial/building workers start at that time too, so it's really the Office-types starting at 9 who are causing the congestion. Flexitime would help here surely.

Iwannahurl

corktina wrote: »

It's quite obvious that many of those doing the school run will be dropping their kids on the way to work.

Around 60% of parents who drop the kids off at school by car don’t commute to work afterwards, according to this report.

L1011

seamus wrote: »

I'd also imagine a not insignificant number of people switch to the car once morning temps drop below 10C, because people in general are complete pussies.

This definitely occurs, and in my office a number of people swap from the Luas to car any morning it's raining due to the "long walk" (about 300 metres through a gap!) to the stop. What they do when it starts raining for the evening, I've not figured out yet.

pwurple

the boss of me wrote: »

My twelve year old just started secondary school and I'd be happy for her to walk the mile or so to school. However the problem is the schoolbag, I weighed it this afternoon when I collected her from school ... it weighed in at 22lbs !!

Bag with wheels? I see them in use all the time around here.

seamus

MYOB wrote: »

What they do when it starts raining for the evening, I've not figured out yet.

Somehow on days when it starts pissing down in the evenings, the traffic goes to crap even though the roads were OK for the trip in that morning.

So I can only surmise that a certain number of people have spouses/partners who come in and pick them up from work when it rains. And/or people panic and leave work early to beat the rush and end up causing the rush.

Seaswimmer

pwurple wrote: »

Bag with wheels? I see them in use all the time around here.

I suspect the answer will be

"not cool"

Eminently sensible ideas to us are often unthinkable to teenagers..