small GA plane running costs

Xpro

Hi,
Can sombody comment on how much it costs run your own plane? Im talking here about C152/172 cubs,warriors or whatever you have out there.

Im just trying to see how much would it cost to run a small 152/172 per hour, your own fees in comparison to flying schools

cheers

Jesus Nut

I rent a Cessna 152 for €100 per hour (Take off to Land).
So, you can log the 5 mins before take off (start up, taxi, run up etc) and 5 mins after you land...
So, you get 1.1 or 1.2 in the log book for 100 quid.

Mate of mine has a 4 seat Rallye also for hire which is €100 an hour take off to land.

Most schools will charge CRAZY prices. You are better of renting of a private owner.

Best advice, is scoop out the local airfield and scoop out where the lads drink and after a few pints you should know someone well enough for them to let you use there plane.

Clubs and Schools will shaft you every time.

There are a ton of private aircraft in Ireland. You just have to warm the right owner up after a few pints
Goodluck

Su Campu

Jesus Nut wrote: »

I rent a Cessna 152 for €100 per hour (Take off to Land).
So, you can log the 5 mins before take off (start up, taxi, run up etc) and 5 mins after you land...
So, you get 1.1 or 1.2 in the log book for 100 quid.

Mate of mine has a 4 seat Rallye also for hire which is €100 an hour take off to land.

Most schools will charge CRAZY prices. You are better of renting of a private owner.

Best advice, is scoop out the local airfield and scoop out where the lads drink and after a few pints you should know someone well enough for them to let you use there plane.

Clubs and Schools will shaft you every time.

There are a ton of private aircraft in Ireland. You just have to warm the right owner up after a few pints
Goodluck

I think he was asking about running as opposed to renting a plane.

It all depends on what exactly it is you're talking about. It's like asking how much is insurance for a car? Depends on value, which in turn depends on age, hours, condition, etc. Do you want to store it on the tarmac at Weston (€10,000 per year from what I've heard, but that could be bull****) or keep it in a field on your farm.

I don't have my own plane so I can't comment on the figures, but they are some of the things you would need to consider.

Stovepipe

For a single owner of a private small aircraft on a C of A, it's really a question of how much you can afford. I strongly suggest that if you are really considering buying an aircraft, that you go down the Permit to Fly route. It is significantly cheaper to operate under that system and the aircraft are more interesting.

regards
Stovepipe

Davidth88

Is there an Irish equivalent to the PFA ( now called the LAA by the looks of it ) or the EAA in the US or the RSA in France ?

jasonb

Jesus Nut wrote: »

I rent a Cessna 152 for €100 per hour (Take off to Land).
So, you can log the 5 mins before take off (start up, taxi, run up etc) and 5 mins after you land...
So, you get 1.1 or 1.2 in the log book for 100 quid.

Mate of mine has a 4 seat Rallye also for hire which is €100 an hour take off to land.

Most schools will charge CRAZY prices. You are better of renting of a private owner.

Best advice, is scoop out the local airfield and scoop out where the lads drink and after a few pints you should know someone well enough for them to let you use there plane.

Clubs and Schools will shaft you every time.

There are a ton of private aircraft in Ireland. You just have to warm the right owner up after a few pints
Goodluck

That's interesting, I'd never thought of that route before. It could save me a lot of money flying. I just need to find someone with a Warrior now!

J.

Joe 90

Davidth88 wrote: »

Is there an Irish equivalent to the PFA ( now called the LAA by the looks of it ) or the EAA in the US or the RSA in France ?

Yes there is, ILAS used to be known a SAAC.

http://www.ilas.ie/

pclancy

This site has some general running cost info.

http://www.what2fly.com/operating_cost/

As well as fuel you've got storage which can run into thousands, prop inspections, old avionics dying, tyres, essential inspections, insurance, bulbs etc. For a small trainer (Skipper, Tomahawk, 150) probably need to put $50-100 per hour away in the bank to save to pay for all this stuff, thats what many syndicates and aeroclubs do. Cessna 172s, 180s, Archers, Warriors etc probably double those figures.

Pricewise unless you've got a lot of money for new or near new you'll be picking up a 70s-80s aircraft- Cessna parts are crazy dear, older Piper parts becoming harder to get so also getting pricey.

I've heard the owner of three Piper Tomahawks at the local club grumble that though they sip fuel theyre annual inspections are costing more then a low hour second hand Tecnam would cost. Plus when they hit 11,000 hours they will need an expensive wing spar replacement which will probably cost more then their resale value.

Shame Ireland isnt geared up as well as the US for hiring or sharing GA aircraft. The advice to just go down your local aeroclub and make friends with owners is probably best, syndicates are great! NZ has some interesting shares come up from time to time...checkout this, $12,000 for shares in a Tiger Moth and a Nanchang!

Jesus Nut

jasonb wrote: »

That's interesting, I'd never thought of that route before. It could save me a lot of money flying. I just need to find someone with a Warrior now!

J.

I think if you visit newcastle you will find something RIGHT up your street there for nice and cheap aswell and no membership sh!te

JJLongford

Is there not a ridiculously expensive fee of €600 per year for flying in Newcastle? I don't know if that is called something other than membership. Is that not payable by all there?

Davidth88

Joe 90 wrote: »

Yes there is, ILAS used to be known a SAAC.

http://www.ilas.ie/

ok, then can these guys not help ?

Stovepipe

Hi there
ILAS is the authority in Ireland for homebuilts and Classics. We have all kinds of aircraft in our fleet from Vans RV-7s to Piper Cubs. Our aircraft are run on a Permit to Fly, which is considerably cheaper than a C of A for certified aircraft. You, the owner, are responsible for your maintenance, under the beady eye of your Inspector, who will advise you on how to care for your aircraft. main expenses? hangarage, Insurance, engine fund. Hangarage at a private field, of which there are some 200 + in the country varies from the price of a few pints per month to a couple of thousand. Insurance for a few million cover and named pilots is from a few hundred to 15-1600 per annum, typically from Traffords or equivalent in the UK. Every case is different. Most pilots put a sum-per-hour aside to fund engine maintenance. Something as basic as a D112 or a Champ would probably even out at Eu 60-80/hr inc fuel. Share it in a syndicate and it comes down to Eu 30/hr.
A Cub would sell these days for Eu20K plus and a D112, in top condition, for Eu 13K plus. They're old, not fast, great fun to fly and use small grass runways. Apart from them, our friends in the NMAI operate weight-shift and fixed wing microlights for even smaller sums, depending on the model.
Have a look at our website and that of the NMAI and the LAA and get in your car and get to the airfields and ask questions. get William Flood's guide or kevin Glynn's guide and go visit the grass strips and the small public airfields and have a look around.

regards
Stovepipe

logie101

Can anyone enlighten me where you can rent a Cessna 152 for €100 per hour and not have to pay membership?

Xpro

Apparently 150/152`s are very cheap to run. Most private owners are running them on just an ordinary pump fuel which obviously makes it even cheaper, but as i was told it costs approx 50€ an hour, not even. Thats when using pump fuel, obviously with avgas its going to be slightly more.

smurfjed

Mate of mine has a 4 seat Rallye also for hire which is €100 an hour take off to land.

Is this legal on a private CofA?

smurfjed

Rudy Jakma

Interesting. I'd love to do some flying again. Anything at all. In my days, I have flown many types. Want a list? Piper Cub, Super cub, Colt, Tri-Pacer, Cherokee, Cessna ? 150, 152, 170, 172, 175, 182, Tiger Moth, Turbulent, Stampe, Fournier, some more that I have forgotten (including retractables and variable pitch).
Twins too: Aztec, C310, 340, Seneca. I live near Weston. Licence expired. Anyone wanting to take me up? Split cost or whatever and you can write all the hours in your log book ! Call me on 086 3257426

Gaoth Laidir

logie101 wrote: »

Can anyone enlighten me where you can rent a Cessna 152 for €100 per hour and not have to pay membership?

Absolutely, just what I was about to ask!! I'm paying 187 at NFC

Rudy Jakma

I started flying in 1965 and got my PPL, I think, in '67.
In those days flying still was affordable. Many light aircraft did not even have a radio. It was still possible to make long trips VFR without it. For international trips, it was advisable to file a flight plan and stick the remark in: "Req. customs"
The UK required a sheaf of paperwork: temporary importation and a stack of "general declarations" to be distributed all over the airport. On entering the UK, the pilot had to submit the aircraft documents like C of A, cert of registration, maintenance release, insurance documentation and of course the pilot's licences. I remember one day flying an American-registered aircraft. Which caused a bureaucratic nightmare. I had to show the C of A but that was affixed to a panel inside the aircraft and US law did not permit it's removal.
Anyway, after all that it was a trip to various offices: Customs, immigration and even an obscure official called the "waterguard". Every single one needed a stamped copy of the Gendec, stamped some more and off to the next office.
Anyway, I don't think that I ever paid more than 7 or 8 pounds per hour. Sometimes, if I was lucky, an aircraft got stranded somewhere, the pilot got home by bus or train and when the weather cleared up I often could bring it back to base.
Not only did I build flying hours, I also flew many different types. Once I was asked to bring a - then -sophisticated aircraft back. If I remember correctly, it was a Rockwell 112. It had a constant speed propeller and retractable wheels. I had not flown it before and according to the rules it required a check-out. So I went to the chief instructor who just told me: "you are checked out now".
I think I paid somewhere in the order of £ 3 an hour for a Piper Cub, an L4J or a J3. The 90-horse PA 18 (still no radio, nor electrics) set me back the princely sum of £ 4.10 (four quid ten shillings that was). I could rent a Tiger Moth or Stampe for £ 5 an hour. I forgot what they charged for a Fournier or Turbulent. That was more light a toy than an airplane It had a modified engine and was so underpowered that the stall came AFTER the end of the drag curve. Meaning: If you got low and too slow on approach, it could not accelerate away with full power. On the wrong side of the drag curve, but not yet stalled, it was nevertheless necessary to push the nose down and pick up speed before you could fly away again. Normally not a big deal, unless you were low on short final and did not have any height left.
But yes, I may count myself lucky that I rarely ever paid the "full whack". But again, if any of you guys want to fly for less: take me with you. We can come to an agreement about the cost that would be beneficial to both and who knows, I may be able to show you a trick. Of course, you may be a hotshot or I may have forgotten my book of tricks.
Anyway, I live about 10 minutes from Weston and my phone number, just removed on the kind advice from another user

alphaLaura

Come down to Waterford Aero Club.

Membership is 190EUR for the year in January and our Tecnams and Warrior are rentable on tachometer rates. Certainly with the Tecnams, you can realistically fly for 100EUR/hour (no landing fees in Waterford on top of that). We also do block rates with 5% tach rate discounts.

Rudy Jakma

Hello,

Thanks for your reply. I certainly intend to look into this, but I fear that I am too old to return to active flying. My licence (JAA) should have been exchanged in 2012.
All I want is to be in a light airplane again, if I can handle the controls that would be "awesome". Preferably a PA 18. I did a lot of flying in them, but a 152 or a 172 would be fine.
I did my PPL in a C 150 (no, not a 152), but I reckon that there aren't many around any more.

The weather is not really an invitation to drive all the way from Leixlip, either. So it will have to wait. But with a bit of luck: see you around some time !

Regards and happy flying in 2016 !

Rudy Jakma

PS it need not be a Cessna, either. A Tobago, a Jodel, Rallye or whatever has taken their place!

Pat Dunne

Could I suggest that you remove your mobile phone number and ask people to contact you by Personal Message through this forum.
Posting up your number leaves you open to all sorts of strange and wonderful individuals contacting you and using your mobile phone number.

Rudy Jakma

Thanks Pat,

I am no computer wizz, I tried to follow your advice but don't know how to edit the entry. I did try.

As no doubt you have read, I am what people call - when they are trying to be kind - an "old-timer". My first flying lessons were, I believe, in 1965. On a Piper L4J, the military "spotter" version of the J3 "Cub". It had a lot more (plexi)glass than the standard J3. Just as well because the pilot (or student) occupied the rear seat. The reason being that during solo operations that was where the pilot sat. Which meant that the student had to lean to one side to see the instruments. Otherwise all he or she saw was the back of the instructor.
The petrol tank was just in front of the cockpit, behind the engine. The gauge was a spoke, mounted on a float, a cork, sticking through the filler cap. It was not unheard of that it would get stuck, indicating plenty of fuel left, when the tank was dry. The resulting off-aerodrome landing rarely if ever led to any serious injury and more often than not a can of petrol was all that was necessary to get the aircraft safely home. But I digress.

My mobile phone number is not really a secret and from time to time I receive weird and wonderful calls. Usually unwanted calls are from people who are trying to sell me something that I don't want and cannot afford. Usually I tell the caller quite curtly "not interested" and disconnect.

I will try to figure out how to edit the entries. But thanks for your concern, Pat.

Rudy Jakma

On the advice of another user I am removing my mobile number.
I do hope, though, that some genuine people have copied it.
Happy New Year to you all

martinsvi

Hi Rudy, if you can travel to Newcastle, Wicklow (EINC), I'm sure some of the lads will be happy to take you up as soon as the place dries out. I'd be happy to take you up myself, but my last flight was in October, it will take some time to get me "legal" to take any pax. If no one else can take you up, PM me in March. We still drive C150s, 152 is a rarity in Ireland, but a PA28 would be my preferred machine for the time being

pepe the prawn

martinsvi wrote: »

Hi Rudy, if you can travel to Newcastle, Wicklow (EINC)....:

Is EI-BBC Cherokee 180 in einc these days?

martinsvi

pepe the prawn wrote: »

Is EI-BBC Cherokee 180 in einc these days?

hmm trying to remember when was the last time I saw it, but seems to be there anyway. I believe it's owned by a private group, I haven't used it my self

Rudy Jakma

Hello "martinsvi",

That is a very kind offer. Of course, the days are short and under the recent weather conditions, "VFR" is all too often: "very effin' risky"!
Having said that, my instrument rating has expired a long time ago with my licence but if we have an approach plate and an ILS, the worst thing would be the possibility of icing (ouch !) and the landing- and parking fees at Dublin Airport.

I think the last time I flew a PA28-180 may well have been in 1968. It did not have toe brakes, only a handle in the middle under the instrument panel. But it was a lovely machine, very comfortable. Of course, we will share the cost. I am hopeful that my Morris Minor Traveler will make it to Newcastle. And I hope that I will be able to find it.

Looking forward to the end of this drab, wet weather. Those of us who do not need a rubber dinghy to mover through the house are very lucky indeed. A bit of a sick joke, not really funny if you come to think of it: An Irish town has been re-named Carrick-in-Shannon !

Wishing you a Happy New Year,

Rudy

martinsvi

Rudy Jakma wrote: »

Hello "martinsvi",

That is a very kind offer. Of course, the days are short and under the recent weather conditions, "VFR" is all too often: "very effin' risky"!
Having said that, my instrument rating has expired a long time ago with my licence but if we have an approach plate and an ILS, the worst thing would be the possibility of icing (ouch !) and the landing- and parking fees at Dublin Airport.

I think the last time I flew a PA28-180 may well have been in 1968. It did not have toe brakes, only a handle in the middle under the instrument panel. But it was a lovely machine, very comfortable. Of course, we will share the cost. I am hopeful that my Morris Minor Traveler will make it to Newcastle. And I hope that I will be able to find it.

Looking forward to the end of this drab, wet weather. Those of us who do not need a rubber dinghy to mover through the house are very lucky indeed. A bit of a sick joke, not really funny if you come to think of it: An Irish town has been re-named Carrick-in-Shannon !

Wishing you a Happy New Year,

Rudy

GA is not allowed in DUB. You wouldn't get near it. If you want to get from Wicklow to North, they will route you way out in the sea and if RWY 28 is in use - you will get to do it at 500ft. So basically people are reluctant to get near Dublin unless you really need to. Baldonnel allows shooting ILS approaches (for training) but no landing unless it's an emergency. So basically IR flying is not an option unless we're heading for Cork or Shannon.

Then there's a question about equipment. Fully legal IFR machines are expensive to rent, maintenance (paperwork) is dear. So no IFR for us.

The bird I'm flying also has no toe brakes, but the club is putting in up for sale so I suspect she will be gone soon, but the fleet is growing quite rapidly so I'm sure I will love whatever comes in it's place even more

Rudy Jakma

Hi again,
Shows you just how long I have not flown. I have rented from Iona and they were based at DUB. And never knew that Baldonnel has an ILS, must be recent?
Anyway, my comments were "tongue in cheek", I never was seriously suggesting to go up in a light aircraft - any aircraft for that matter - if the weather is dodgy.
I have been young and stupid, got away with it. But even if I still did have a valid licence I now know that I have tempted fate on a number of occasions. Risk taking usually goes with youth and lack of experience. So have no fear, I was only "speaking in jest"!

martinsvi

Rudy Jakma wrote: »

my comments were "tongue in cheek",

I know I used the opportunity to bring you up to speed. Baldonnel has ILS on RWY 11 only, which is kind of strange if you consider prevailing winds are typically coming from west, but I guess it could be a bit difficult to use ILS on 29 due to Dublin mountains. I'm not sure how recent it is, but I'm pretty sure it has popped up in last few years

As regards to risk taking with the lack of experience, I consider myself inexperienced thus I always tend to make my decisions on the extreme of the safe side. I have cancelled a good few flights when more experienced guys go out. Don't feel embarrassed about it and I think that's how most new pilots are these days - guys who train in Ireland, rather going for their licence in cosy weather places, know how quickly things can change and how bad it can get, so people tend to be very cautious and dip their toes in the game very slowly

Rudy Jakma

In reply to some remarks by other users (as a now "elderly gentleman" I find this forum a bit difficult to navigate, I just get there by dead reckoning):

The changes in aviation, mentality as well as bureaucratic control by the aviation authorities, have been surely massive since I started flying in the mid-1960s.
In the 1970s I have been a member of the Tiger Club at Redhill for many years. A condition to be allowed to fly was a check-out on the Tiger Moth after which a member just needed to read the "Pilots' Notes" in order to fly the other types. They organized an occasional fly-in called the "Dawn to dusk patrol". Standing roughly for aerial wild West and a licence to stay below hedge-level. Visitors were supposed to try and come in undetected, Tiger Club members were supposed to get their registration. NO, NOT after landing but by spotting and intercepting them BEFORE landing. I shall not say more !

It also happened that an airport manager came out of his office to ask us "to keep the traffic pattern outside of the aerodrome boundary". Not only could we cram a lot more touch-and-goes in an hour's flying, but the score, the number of landings, was kept by a visual tally from the little hut with the black "C" on yellow background. These guys could not keep up with us and as a result we got a lot of landings for free. The aerodrome concerned had no radio - nor did most of the aircraft for that matter.

VMC was defined as a forward visibility of 1.5 km and a cloud base of 500 feet. A church tower was at the prescribed minimum distance from the hut and on a misty day we would commence flying when the tower came in view. Sometimes it was only a temporary improvement but we not seldom continued after it had again been shrouded in the mist. Until the aerodrome manager, the same guy who politely asked us to fly a wider traffic pattern, came out of his hut and in the same polite manner asked us what the minimum criteria were for flying VFR. Yes, 1500 metres. And what do you think the visibility is now? Well, on one occasion it had dropped to less than 500 and we still were making our touch-and-goes. The only pilot who got lost and had to divert to another aerodrome was flying an aircraft that had a horizon and a VOR-DME.

Those were the days, never to return. And strangely, perhaps: very few got lost and neither were we accident-prone. In those days, the transponder was a novelty. I remember a rich guy who owned a new 172 and one day, asking for a crossing clearance through the control zone of a major airport, proudly announced: "I am transponder equipped". ATC's response was: "Congratulations". Very few people knew where a light aircraft was, nor if they did, at what height they were flying. And very few cared.

To-day, when I recount what we got away with in those days, young pilots either give me a look that tells me that they do not believe a word of it, or wonder if they should call the men in the white suits. Yes, times have changed !

But even if there are more rules, even if pilot training is now more a hot-bed aiming to get young people in the narrow end of an airliner than to bring up people who fly for the love of it, still the magic has not gone away. And I still miss it.

That is the reason why I am putting all these mad stories on this forum !

martinsvi

I've no trouble believing you, but the scale (or lack of) of GA in Ireland as it was back then and as it is now generally makes accidents uncommon. Statistically speaking I reckon we're not much different than US and their NTSB published a report recently saying that for 100'000 flight hours GA sees 5.85 accidents and 1 decimal something deaths. They claim GA is getting safer every year and last year it has been safest since WW2.

Training as it is today is no more of a hotbed for commercial flying as it was in the sixties - there's no fancy stuff - no GPS, no iPads.. We do need to demonstrate a basic ability to use VOR/NDB and follow instruments, but we still use charts and rulers and your all mighty whiz wheel as you did, I'm sure if you'd open a book you would recognize some 80% of it from your day. The aviation is constantly changing. We get to learn form our mistakes and new items are added to syllabus from time to time to make sure we see or future pilots smarter, better prepared and so on.

Technically we have all the prerequisites we need for a safe and enjoyable flying, the regulations are there, the technology is there, we have the weather information available at our finger tips and the ATC is there to help. And it's a paradox, because this level of "support" comes with a hefty price tag - aircraft maintenance is insanely expensive, even part manufacturers are including their own liability insurances these days, any paperwork movement through IAA sees a 3 digit bill. You end up with people flying the bare minimum just to keep their licences alive and the currency is lost. So I'm not sure what the future holds for GA. They say that the microlights are the way to go, but I don't see what's stopping them eventually becoming so over-regulated and expensive as "group - A" has become

Rudy Jakma

Hi,
I believe you, but the stories were not about flying in Ireland.
And GA was a very different world then. Far less "red tape".
The flying school where I took my first hesitant lessons had a slogan:
"The road is full, the sky is free. Learn how to fly."
That was in the days when it still was possible to fly all the way to the south of France without a radio.
I could spend hours, days, talking about ti.
Maybe we will meet one day !
Rudy