The gains of the Celtic Tiger vs the losses of the recession

Rabidlamb

There are many inflated stories about Celtic Tiger excess that some of the 20 somethings on here must read shaking their head.
Not all of us took a share in a horse or bought jet skis, maybe a shopping trip to New York & ticking a few European cities off your to do list was as far as many got.
Sure 8-10% pay rises each year seem colossal now but the increased standard of living brought costs that nullified many of the gains.

In contrast the recession has been felt far deeper & longer.
No one has escaped the affect, even protected PS workers & pensioners have lost family members to emigration, a younger generation to inflated mortgages & negative equity.
School & college leavers have lost that opportunity to get on the career ladder early on, the pride that comes with your first reasonable wage.

We are told that these economic stages happen in cycles.
I would argue, from a human perspective, that the peaks of growth aren't high enough to justify the depths of recession that follows.

eth0

Rabidlamb wrote: »

maybe a shopping trip to New York

That is still quite a bit of excess. Spending 400e+ on a ticket and a load more on just being there for the few days only to buy a load of shoite that you can order online from China anyway is a very celtic tiger thing to do.

Chazz Michael Michaels

Rabidlamb wrote: »

There are many inflated stories about Celtic Tiger excess that some of the 20 somethings on here must read shaking their head.
Not all of us took a share in a horse or bought jet skis, maybe a shopping trip to New York & ticking a few European cities off your to do list was as far as many got.
Sure 8-10% pay rises each year seem colossal now but the increased standard of living brought costs that nullified many of the gains.

In contrast the recession has been felt far deeper & longer.
No one has escaped the affect, even protected PS workers & pensioners have lost family members to emigration, a younger generation to inflated mortgages & negative equity.
School & college leavers have lost that opportunity to get on the career ladder early on, the pride that comes with your first reasonable wage.

We are told that these economic stages happen in cycles.
I would argue, from a human perspective, that the peaks of growth aren't high enough to justify the depths of recession that follows.

In fairness, this deep a recession hasn't hit the west since the 1930s. It's difficult to look at this recession as a typical example of boom to bust.

brandon_flowers

Sorry to be so blunt but the two things I would use to measure the differences are suicide and emigration.

Emigration probably has been higher than now but I doubt suicide has. The doom and gloom effect of recession is always heavier than the bright lights of a boom.

Rabidlamb

Chazz Michael Michaels wrote: »

In fairness, this deep a recession hasn't hit the west since the 1930s. It's difficult to look at this recession as a typical example of boom to bust.

I'm old enough to remember the eternal strikes of the 80's.
Reeling in the Years during that period always seems bleak.

Chazz Michael Michaels

Rabidlamb wrote: »

I'm old enough to remember the eternal strikes of the 80's.
Reeling in the Years during that period always seems bleak.

The 80's was more stagnation than anything:

http://www.google.ie/publicdata/explore?ds=d5bncppjof8f9_&ctype=l&strail=false&bcs=d&nselm=h&met_y=ny_gdp_mktp_cd&scale_y=lin&ind_y=false&rdim=region&idim=country:IRL&ifdim=region&hl=en&dl=en&ind=false&q=irish+gdp

Rabidlamb

eth0 wrote: »

That is still quite a bit of excess. Spending 400e+ on a ticket and a load more on just being there for the few days only to buy a load of shoite that you can order online from China anyway is a very celtic tiger thing to do.

That was the most Celtic Tiger thing I did but that was major excess for me.
You would justify the cost of the trip against the savings you'd make on clothes.
I once wrote a cheque of €5k for hello money to the local golf club but then ripped it up, phew.

donegal.

i'm 37 and live in donegal. I gained nothing in boom, i was priced out of the housing market untill 07. No american shopping trips, new cars etc.my standard of life was comfortable but basic.
Now i have seen a massive fall in "disposable income" , can't sell house because of negative equaty and i couldn't stomach raising my children in any of the countries i could get a visa for.

.The Celtic Tiger did not reach everbody.


All the people i know who were swiming in cash during the boom (mostly working in construction) and who are now living on a fraction of that money, are still enjoying a higher standard of now than alot of us had during the boom, regular foreign holidays etc.

eth0

Rabidlamb wrote: »

That was the most Celtic Tiger thing I did but that was major excess for me.
You would justify the cost of the trip against the savings you'd make on clothes.
I once wrote a cheque of €5k for hello money to the local golf club but then ripped it up, phew.

Even if you break even its a very round about and probably tiring way of getting clothes because these trips are usually fairly short.I did go to the states a few times but they were genuine holidays not shopping trips and while you'd save a bit vs buying in the shop back home it might just about cover the cost of the ticket

Sappa

I was speaking to a tradie recently who complained now he was only clearing a 1000 a week and he was none too happy,the boom went to these guys heads.

ilovesleep

The over inflation of the economy happened really between 2002 and 2007. SW increases began back in 2002, as with other increases PS. Although house prices were climbing, bit by bit, before then. With PS and wage increases, house prices spiralled.

So the real damage happened between those 5 years. And it took another year to go bust. We're now four years in of the bust and no end in sight.

Rabidlamb

ilovesleep wrote: »

We're now four years in of the bust and no end in sight.

This is the most depressing thing of all & with 3 economy busting budgets to come the outlook is none to appealing either.
It could be the end of the decade before we start to see some real growth.
That will be 10 years of recession & stagnation.

Don't worry, I'm sure we'll do it all again in 20 years time unless the Germans can teach us something.

To be honest, trips to New York and weekend breaks in Europe are extravagant compared to what most of the world gets. I'm in Spain now and hardly anyone here has ever travelled abroad. I was sitting next to a 46-year-old woman on the plane over who had been on her trip of a lifetime to London on Ryanair and she said she'd been saving for it for years. Most people here can afford to live and that's about it.

I never got the benefit of the Celtic Tiger. I was in college during the boom - so got all the bad parts of it - overpriced rent, overpriced food, overpriced everything - and then graduated into a recession and couldn't get a decent job. Really annoying.

BraziliaNZ

I had a blast, was earning a fortune on overtime etc, 4 holidays a year etc. Then saved up about 10k and spent it on 2 years backpacking, only to come back to the recession. I never got a mortgage though which was unusual for someone my age, nearly everyone I know bought something.
So now I have a job and no debts and it's all hunky dory. The recession didn't feck everyone up but I feel for those who have it rough now.

Chazz Michael Michaels

BraziliaNZ wrote: »

I had a blast, was earning a fortune on overtime etc, 4 holidays a year etc. Then saved up about 10k and spent it on 2 years backpacking, only to come back to the recession. I never got a mortgage though which was unusual for someone my age, nearly everyone I know bought something.
So now I have a job and no debts and it's all hunky dory. The recession didn't feck everyone up but I feel for those who have it rough now.

*high fives*

marketty

Thinly veiled 'I've been to New York' thread

eth0

marketty wrote: »

Thinly veiled 'I've been to New York' thread

Dunno why someone would want to boast about that, tis a filthy sh1thole of a place after

eth0

eth0 wrote: »

Dunno why someone would want to boast about that, tis a filthy sh1thole of a place after

No it isn't, its a great place to be fair.

I was in college during the boom and I am earning money now so the recession isn't really have any effect on me apart from the fact I ended up doing a PhD rather than in an actual job which wasn't really a big deal. Hopefully I will get a job in Ireland when I finish though.

eth0

Tyler Panicky Bass wrote: »

No it isn't.

Unless they cleaned it up recently, horrible area

eth0

eth0 wrote: »

Unless they cleaned it up recently, horrible area

I was there 10 years ago and the place was spotless, very safe, loads to do and see and had a great vibe about it. Looking forward to visiting again. Not to mention all the shopping opportunities.

Brain Stroking

eth0 wrote: »

Unless they cleaned it up recently, horrible area

I gather you base your assumptions of New York on films like Taxi Driver and have no inkling of the regeneration over the past 20 years. Ever heard of Mayor Giuliani?

eth0

Tyler Panicky Bass wrote: »

I was there 10 years ago and the place was spotless, very safe, loads to do and see and had a great vibe about it. Looking forward to visiting again. Not to mention all the shopping opportunities.

Things must have gone downhill since the recession I'd say. For shopping opportunities you should probably go to Shenzhen because thats likely where the stuff you're buying is made anyway

bluecode

One of the myths of the Tiger years was that everyone was rolling in money. Sure jobs were easier to get and that meant more people had money to spend. But the reality is that the boom passed the average person by. I got a job in a respected multinational back in '05. Production line job. Pay was €360 a week and believe me they worked you hard for every red cent. That was €18720. Some people complained about the money but a good friend of mine pointed out that most people were better off than those who would probably have shop or service jobs with considerably longer hours and less pay. So much for the boom.

In practical terms I was on less money in 2005 than in 2000. No only that I was effectively worse off thanks to spiralling prices, rents and mortgages. Yeah sure mortgages were easier to get. But there was still a minimum. I was priced out of it.

My story is far from unique. Indeed it's probably typical.

The BIG difference was access to credit. Everyone had it and when you're on lowish pay it's a temptation. That's why so many people are in trouble now.

It's gone the other way now. No jobs, no access to credit.

So don't believe the hype about the boom. We weren't all greedy speculators. Most of us were actually worse off and now we're all paying for the criminals and politicians who used the boom to gamble wildly. As usual they're getting away with it.

It also makes my blood boil when I read commentators who tell you we lost our way during the boom. That we are rediscovering all the old values now that the money is gone. Yeah sure, we're back were we belong, poverty, recession, unemployment, emigration. The old values we all knew and loved for those of us who grew up in the eighties. Most of us never lost our way. We couldn't afford to.

omahaid

I was able to return to college as a mature student during the boom and work night shift to pay the bills. I wasn't very rich during the boom but I think if there wasn't a boom I wouldn't have been able to afford returning to college.

ScumLord

Ireland gained very little out of the boom. Our roads are still a joke bar a handful of privately run tolled motorways, all our services are a joke, town planning is still non existent. When we had the chance to improve all these things we squandered our money on trivial crap and now we can't afford to make these changes.

We're too easily distracted by short term satisfaction and trinkets to run this country properly.

eth0

ScumLord wrote: »

Ireland gained very little out of the boom. Our roads are still a joke bar a handful of privately run tolled motorways, all our services are a joke, town planning is still non existent. When we had the chance to improve all these things we squandered our money on trivial crap and now we can't afford to make these changes.

We're too easily distracted by short term satisfaction and trinkets to run this country properly.

Roads are actually quite good in Ireland. It's just where I happen to live they're fooking brutal. Anywhere I travel to in Ireland the roads are good, even the remote out of the way places I'd be going to

Quorum

eth0 wrote: »

That is still quite a bit of excess. Spending 400e+ on a ticket and a load more on just being there for the few days only to buy a load of shoite that you can order online from China anyway is a very celtic tiger thing to do.

I thought that was madness when it was happening.

I think what galled me the most is that people were going to this amazing, cultural, vibrant city and... shopping. Nothing much else. Now when I do eventually get to NYC for a holiday, I might do a bit of shopping on one of the days, but it won't be my primary reason for visiting.

Quorum

Rabidlamb wrote: »

You would justify the cost of the trip against the savings you'd make on clothes.

Did you need all the clothes you bought?

starbelgrade

eth0 wrote: »

Roads are actually quite good in Ireland. It's just where I happen to live they're fooking brutal. Anywhere I travel to in Ireland the roads are good, even the remote out of the way places I'd be going to

If you're travelling from Dublin to another part of the country, the roads are pretty good, but the major link roads between other cities and towns are very poor - especially in the West of Ireland.

For example, if you want to travel from Galway to Belfast via Sligo, you'll take the N17 & N16 before you hit the A4. The N17 is a one lane country road for a large part of it, most of which doesn't even have a hard shoulder and the N16 is one of the worst roads in the country which frequently gets flooded. For the most part, there are only small stretches where you can overtake safely and the trip is full of hazardous bends and varying degrees in the standards of road surfaces.

This is a 340km drive, which with a decent road should take about 3.5 hours, but which can take 5/6 hours or more, depending on how many Yarises and tractors you get stuck behind.

Jason Todd

Chase Bitter Sucker wrote: »

I never got the benefit of the Celtic Tiger. I was in college during the boom - so got all the bad parts of it - overpriced rent, overpriced food, overpriced everything - and then graduated into a recession and couldn't get a decent job. Really annoying.

Same here, never was a saver either. Now I have two kids and I've little to no disposable income. If I lost my job tomorrow I'd struggle to buy groceries in a fortnights time, that's a fact. My partner won't emigrate and uproot the kids, so we're stuck here.

The Celtic Tiger meant nothing to me, the recession means everything unfortunately.

ilovesleep

starbelgrade wrote: »

If you're travelling from Dublin to another part of the country, the roads are pretty good, but the major link roads between other cities and towns are very poor - especially in the West of Ireland.

For example, if you want to travel from Galway to Belfast via Sligo, you'll take the N17 & N16 before you hit the A4. The N17 is a one lane country road for a large part of it, most of which doesn't even have a hard shoulder and the N16 is one of the worst roads in the country which frequently gets flooded. For the most part, there are only small stretches where you can overtake safely and the trip is full of hazardous bends and varying degrees in the standards of road surfaces.

This is a 340km drive, which with a decent road should take about 3.5 hours, but which can take 5/6 hours or more, depending on how many Yarises and tractors you get stuck behind.

By any chance is the N16 the road with plenty of white crosses galore erected at the side of the road? Probably to mark a death. But there's 100s of the crosses.

Lando Griffin

I loved the Celtic Tiger.
What a shame it left our shores.
Bought 6 acres around our village years ago for development as an investment but didn't build anything.
Its still worth more than I bought it for but thought that the average price of a 3 bed semi would climb to 500,000 then it would have been time to build.
I even bought a Nissan Nirvara to lumber stuff round in, thats gone in all too.
Oh well, give it 5-10 more years and hopefully I can make my move.

super_furry

When you can buy single cigarattes with butter vouchers again, we'll have come full circle.

eth0

starbelgrade wrote: »

If you're travelling from Dublin to another part of the country, the roads are pretty good, but the major link roads between other cities and towns are very poor - especially in the West of Ireland.

For example, if you want to travel from Galway to Belfast via Sligo, you'll take the N17 & N16 before you hit the A4. The N17 is a one lane country road for a large part of it, most of which doesn't even have a hard shoulder and the N16 is one of the worst roads in the country which frequently gets flooded. For the most part, there are only small stretches where you can overtake safely and the trip is full of hazardous bends and varying degrees in the standards of road surfaces.

This is a 340km drive, which with a decent road should take about 3.5 hours, but which can take 5/6 hours or more, depending on how many Yarises and tractors you get stuck behind.

It might be only one lane but the surface is fairly decent except for a few dodgy level crossings. They could do with bypassing a few more of the small towns because they get a bit congested if you're travelling at the same time as everyone else.

There's some worse N roads around the place that are very narrow altogether and disintegrating on both sides

Lando Griffin

ilovesleep wrote: »

By any chance is the N16 the road with plenty of white crosses galore erected at the side of the road? Probably to mark a death. But there's 100s of the crosses.

Probably engineers marking for road improvements Id say.

Quorum

Tyler Panicky Bass wrote: »

No it isn't, its a great place to be fair.

I was in college during the boom and I am earning money now so the recession isn't really have any effect on me apart from the fact I ended up doing a PhD rather than in an actual job which wasn't really a big deal. Hopefully I will get a job in Ireland when I finish though.

Getting a PhD is no bad thing and should stand you in good stead in the future.

Quorum

bluecode wrote: »

It also makes my blood boil when I read commentators who tell you we lost our way during the boom. That we are rediscovering all the old values now that the money is gone. Yeah sure, we're back were we belong, poverty, recession, unemployment, emigration. The old values we all knew and loved for those of us who grew up in the eighties. Most of us never lost our way. We couldn't afford to.

And it's always well-heeled type that come out with that tripe. People who were always well-heeled and seemed miffed by the fact that more people were well off than ever before. Now we're back in our "place" they're happy, and some of us never left it in the first place.

ejmaztec

ScumLord wrote: »

Ireland gained very little out of the boom. Our roads are still a joke bar a handful of privately run tolled motorways, all our services are a joke, town planning is still non existent. When we had the chance to improve all these things we squandered our money on trivial crap and now we can't afford to make these changes.

We're too easily distracted by short term satisfaction and trinkets to run this country properly.

It was a wasted opportunity and it will be a feckin long time before we get another one, if ever.:(

I think that a lot of what was achieved will decay because the funds aren't available for adequate maintenance.

Quorum

ScumLord wrote: »

town planning is still non existent.

If anything, town-planning disimproved during the boom, with montrosities and prefab outskirts warehouses springing up everywhere. And now we're left with them, hurting our eyes as they disintegrate.

ScumLord wrote: »

We're too easily distracted by short term satisfaction and trinkets to run this country properly.

Definitely some truth there, for a percentage of people in this country.

ilovesleep

bluecode wrote: »

One of the myths of the Tiger years was that everyone was rolling in money. Sure jobs were easier to get and that meant more people had money to spend. But the reality is that the boom passed the average person by. I got a job in a respected multinational back in '05. Production line job. Pay was €360 a week and believe me they worked you hard for every red cent. That was €18720. Some people complained about the money but a good friend of mine pointed out that most people were better off than those who would probably have shop or service jobs with considerably longer hours and less pay. So much for the boom.

In practical terms I was on less money in 2005 than in 2000. No only that I was effectively worse off thanks to spiralling prices, rents and mortgages. Yeah sure mortgages were easier to get. But there was still a minimum. I was priced out of it.

My story is far from unique. Indeed it's probably typical.

The BIG difference was access to credit. Everyone had it and when you're on lowish pay it's a temptation. That's why so many people are in trouble now.

It's gone the other way now. No jobs, no access to credit.

So don't believe the hype about the boom. We weren't all greedy speculators. Most of us were actually worse off and now we're all paying for the criminals and politicians who used the boom to gamble wildly. As usual they're getting away with it.

It also makes my blood boil when I read commentators who tell you we lost our way during the boom. That we are rediscovering all the old values now that the money is gone. Yeah sure, we're back were we belong, poverty, recession, unemployment, emigration. The old values we all knew and loved for those of us who grew up in the eighties. Most of us never lost our way. We couldn't afford to.

That's it. Many people lived within their means. If they wanted something perhaps for example a playstation or a wide screen tv - they worked and saved for it. Perhaps some took a loan perhaps for a car or a holiday but the decision would have been well calculated and reasonable, as in they were able to pay it back.

We're now being lumped into a bracket with others. Others who've been paid too well and generously. Others who mortgaged themselves without taking into consideration - what if I lose my job? How will I pay?

starbelgrade

ilovesleep wrote: »

By any chance is the N16 the road with plenty of white crosses galore erected at the side of the road? Probably to mark a death. But there's 100s of the crosses.

That's the N4 Sligo to Dublin road. There's a stretch between Castelbaldwin & Sligo that is littered with white crosses.

They only went up recently enough and it's a very sobering reminded of how dangerous some of our national roads are.

Funnily enough, you will never see speed vans in operation along this part of the road.

anncoates

The most harrowing aspect of the whole cycle was the lunatic amounts of smugness deposited in the banks of hindsight that are now being released into the economy.

darragh o meara

Quorum wrote: »

Did you need all the clothes you bought?

I know I did and I still have a lot of the clothes I bought there 5 years ago and wear them regularly. When I was there it was cheaper to buy for example a tommy hilfiger shirt than it was to buy a Dunnes or penneys shirt

fishy fishy

one of the most bizarre things that the imaginary celtic tiger brought

communion do's.

fake tan
false nails
high heels
marquees with attendants
limozines

and that was just the kid.

talk about trashy.

they didn't know what to do with their "pretend" money. Wonder how many of them in negative equity now. :rolleyes:

ScumLord

eth0 wrote: »

It might be only one lane but the surface is fairly decent except for a few dodgy level crossings.

The road surfaces around here are brutal, somehow every time they redo them they manage to bring through all the bumps and flaws. There's some serious pot holes that I've busted wheels on that are as deep as a can of monster and 3 ft long. All they do to fix them is throw in some chippings.

Quorum

Quorum wrote: »

Getting a PhD is no bad thing and should stand you in good stead in the future.

Oh I know that well, I didn't mean it was a bad thing just more that the recession had a role to play in me doing it as I probably would have ended up in a graduate job if they were more plentiful.

eth0

ScumLord wrote: »

The road surfaces around here are brutal, somehow every time they redo them they manage to bring through all the bumps and flaws. There's some serious pot holes that I've busted wheels on that are as deep as a can of monster and 3 ft long. All they do to fix them is throw in some chippings.

Where I'm from they do a perfect job of creating a grand smooth surface, leave it for a few days or a week and then they chisel out a section to reveal a manhole cover but they are never flush with the surface always have to be at least 3" difference at least so there's a good bang when you drive over one.

Other times they just put in a few speed bumps for political correctness reasons, nearby school and old biddy with nothing to do complaining. No point in having a good surface if you're putting in speed bumps

Mr_Roger_Bongos

brandon_flowers wrote: »

Sorry to be so blunt but the two things I would use to measure the differences are suicide and emigration.

Depression among boards.ie users would drop dramatically if we banned threads like this.

EVERY THREAD'S THE SAME! EVERYBODY KNOWS WHAT HAPPENED FFS. ELECT BETTER POLITICIANS OR RUN YOURSELF!

bluecode

Mr_Roger_Bongos wrote: »

Depression among boards.ie users would drop dramatically if we banned threads like this.

EVERY THREAD'S THE SAME! EVERYBODY KNOWS WHAT HAPPENED FFS. ELECT BETTER POLITICIANS OR RUN YOURSELF!

There are no better politicians, this government proves it. They are same semi competent self serving gimps they always were.

As for running myself, yeah sure become an independent and line your pockets just like Wallace or end up being irrelevant and ignored by the main parties. Join the main parties and you're a cog in their wheel. Any form of dissent is stamped on. Everybody toes the party line.

The whole political system is corrupt to the core.

Oh yeah, one other thing, STOP BLOODY SHOUTING!

Mr_Roger_Bongos

It's much more fun to complain about things on the internet.

People will say 'don't read/post' but i honestly think this is a real downer for alot of people reading it.

You did well in the boom - you miss what you had
You didn't do well in the boom - you're frustrated because it wasn't your fault and you saw very little of the upside.

Lose lose.