Allowances

bdoo

S&S to stay qualifications allowances to go.

I thought that they might cap the quals allowance at Hons degree and abolish the hdip allowance which would have been bad enough on top of the 10% cut on the payscale.

This is a disproportionate cut of 29% compared to standard civil service workers who lost 10% for new entrants. I hope that existing teachers contact their unions and act to protect new colleagues who are outside croke park.

How can the best people be attracted into teaching if this is the value that is placed on them. This is before we even mention the issues with quarter hours and less.

A bad day for education.

RealJohn

It's ridiculous and the way they're implementing it is cowardly. What's the logic behind removing the incentive to upskill when they're moaning about the standard of teaching?
And they know that those of us who already have our "allowances" aren't going to kick up much of a fuss over it because ultimately, people are selfish.

Edit to say that I don't disagree with those who say we're overpaid by the way (though not vastly so) but this cowardly government don't have the courage or integrity to do what's right and cut us all a bit rather than pick on those who have no way to fight back.

bdoo

The cuts have to start at the top, expenses etc need to be addressed. Some people are creaming it in expenses alone which are all tax free.

A further paycut would be a very bitter pill against the backdrop of higher costs of living and all of the extra work being done by teachers.

I think if teaches thought that a pay cut would protect sna's and new entrants they might consider it but we know it won't.

It might free up a few euros so that personally appointed advisors can be paid more that the cap on public sector salaries as we have seen.

It's more of the same cut at the bottom, save the guys at the top.

It does irk me that new teachers are being treated far worse than other new entrants, there is no good reason for this.

I respect your opinion that you are slightly overpaid, I wouldn't agree. The current thinking suggests that we are overpaid by 29% I certainly couldn't agree with that.

drvantramp

from ASTI website

First…
Budget 2011 slashed new teachers’ salary by 10%. Together with a change in the salary scale starting point for new teachers, this means an overall reduction in pay of over 15% for teachers appointed after January 1st, 2011.
Then…
Budget 2012 imposed a cap on the qualification allowances payable to those who entered teaching after December 5th 2011.

Now…
It has been announced that all allowances above the basic salary scale will be suspended from 1st February 2011 for new beneficiaries, pending the outcome of a review by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.


update 18.09.12 review complete




Question:
If you entered before December 2011 , do you retain the allowances?

bdoo

drvantramp wrote: »

from ASTI website

First…
Budget 2011 slashed new teachers’ salary by 10%. Together with a change in the salary scale starting point for new teachers, this means an overall reduction in pay of over 15% for teachers appointed after January 1st, 2011.
Then…
Budget 2012 imposed a cap on the qualification allowances payable to those who entered teaching after December 5th 2011.

Now…
It has been announced that all allowances above the basic salary scale will be suspended from 1st February 2011 for new beneficiaries, pending the outcome of a review by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform.


update 18.09.12 review complete




Question:
If you entered before December 2011 , do you retain the allowances?

Anyone who worked in a school before Jan 2011 should be on the old payscale with all allowances.

Anyone between 5 Dec 2011 and 1st Feb 2012 should be on reduced scale with a max of Hons degree allowance.

Anyone starting from Feb 2012 is down on reduced scale only with no allowances at all.

drvantramp

ok bdoo, so it would include this scenario?




From ASTI website (interestingly removed from archive!)


However, the ASTI has written to the Department in relation to teachers who were in the middle of pursuing qualifications on December 5th 2011. The Department has stated that a decision will be made in relation to these teachers as part of the public service wide review. The ASTI believes these teachers have a legitimate expectation to receive the allowance which was available at the time they undertook further study.

evolving_doors

drvantramp wrote: »

ok bdoo, so it would include this scenario?




From ASTI website (interestingly removed from archive!)


However, the ASTI has written to the Department in relation to teachers who were in the middle of pursuing qualifications on December 5th 2011. The Department has stated that a decision will be made in relation to these teachers as part of the public service wide review. The ASTI believes these teachers have a legitimate expectation to receive the allowance which was available at the time they undertook further study.

I get the feeling they forgot to discuss this review.

drvantramp

Have to contact union so
.....doh!

Mardy Bum

bdoo wrote: »

Anyone who worked in a school before Jan 2011 should be on the old payscale with all allowances.

Anyone between 5 Dec 2011 and 1st Feb 2012 should be on reduced scale with a max of Hons degree allowance.

Anyone starting from Feb 2012 is down on reduced scale only with no allowances at all.

Do you have a source for this?

Would someone who was an unqualified substitute between that time period be considered for the reduced scale with a max Hons degree allowance?

bdoo

Mardy Bum wrote: »

bdoo wrote: »

Anyone who worked in a school before Jan 2011 should be on the old payscale with all allowances.

Anyone between 5 Dec 2011 and 1st Feb 2012 should be on reduced scale with a max of Hons degree allowance.

Anyone starting from Feb 2012 is down on reduced scale only with no allowances at all.

Do you have a source for this?

Would someone who was an unqualified substitute between that time period be considered for the reduced scale with a max Hons degree allowance?

No idea if unqualified people can get any allowances at all to be honest.

What period are you talking about? If you only became entitled to the allowance after Feb 2012 then no I would think

Mardy Bum

bdoo wrote: »

No idea if unqualified people can get any allowances at all to be honest.

What period are you talking about? If you only became entitled to the allowance after Feb 2012 then no I would think

After December 2011 prior to Feb 2012. I read someplace that anyone who had worked, unqualified or qualified, prior to December 2011 was eligible for original salary scale prior to this new announcement.##

Those who qualify obviously after working as an unqualified teacher I mean also.

chippers

Mardy Bum wrote: »

After December 2011 prior to Feb 2012. I read someplace that anyone who had worked, unqualified or qualified, prior to December 2011 was eligible for original salary scale prior to this new announcement.

Yes I think one or two of the boardsies here are in that situation and get paid on the original salary scale with allowances.

wolfyboy555

I'm in this situation....subbed pre 2011 but only qualified this year. Have started in school but won't be paid till the end of this month. I might ring the dept tomorrow and see if they can clarify the situation?

bdoo

Mardy Bum wrote: »

bdoo wrote: »

No idea if unqualified people can get any allowances at all to be honest.

What period are you talking about? If you only became entitled to the allowance after Feb 2012 then no I would think

After December 2011 prior to Feb 2012. I read someplace that anyone who had worked, unqualified or qualified, prior to December 2011 was eligible for original salary scale prior to this new announcement.##

Those who qualify obviously after working as an unqualified teacher I mean also.

If you worked in any capacity before Jan 2011 you should be on the old pay scale now. The allowances would depend on when you became entitled to claim them.

Someone could be qualified for ten years but only start teaching tomorrow - no allowances plus new pay scale as they are a new entrant, the fact that they had the quals before has no bearing as I understand it.

So if you were not qualified before Feb or never got the allowance before Feb you won't get it now

Seanchai

I'm surmising here but...

Presumably it would be very good advice to tell PDE students and new teachers to get paid by the DoES before the allowances for new entrants are scrapped so then they're under the old system/can keep any allowances? (i.e. approach your principal asking that even one substitution payment is made to you from DoES funds before the new régime comes into place)

At least that's how it worked for those of us who had received even a single payment from the DoES before January 2011.

bdoo

Seanchai wrote: »

I'm surmising here but...

Presumably it would be very good advice to tell PDE students and new teachers to get paid by the DoES before the allowances for new entrants are scrapped so then they're under the old system/can keep any allowances? (i.e. approach your principal asking that even one substitution payment is made to you from DoES funds before the new régime comes into place)

At least that's how it worked for those of us who had received even a single payment from the DoES before January 2011.

They're already gone since feb

Mardy Bum

bdoo wrote: »

They're already gone since feb

So those who have worked before February but not before January 2011 will be entitled to the revised pay scale with allowances?

dambarude

Mardy Bum wrote: »

So those who have worked before February but not before January 2011 will be entitled to the revised pay scale with allowances?

That's what I'm wondering. Technically unless you have subbed at least 40 days to get moved to your personal rate, and receive the honours degree allowance. But will those who have ANY first employment with the DES before 1/1/2011 and 1/2/2012 be on the 10% cut scale plus allowances? Or will they be on the new new scale (no allowances at all, starting at higher point)?

bdoo

Mardy Bum wrote: »

bdoo wrote: »

They're already gone since feb

So those who have worked before February but not before January 2011 will be entitled to the revised pay scale with allowances?

If they were fully qualified but the sum of allowances can be no greater that the honours degree allowance. So you cannot claim the hdip allowance if you have an Hons degree.

Note that the allowances were also cut by 10%

Mardy Bum

bdoo wrote: »

If they were fully qualified but the sum of allowances can be no greater that the honours degree allowance. So you cannot claim the hdip allowance if you have an Hons degree.

Note that the allowances were also cut by 10%

Would they be starting on point 1 of the payscale or the new marker?

bdoo

dambarude wrote: »

Mardy Bum wrote: »

So those who have worked before February but not before January 2011 will be entitled to the revised pay scale with allowances?

That's what I'm wondering. Technically unless you have subbed at least 40 days to get moved to your personal rate, and receive the honours degree allowance. But will those who have ANY first employment with the DES before 1/1/2011 and 1/2/2012 be on the 10% cut scale plus allowances? Or will they be on the new new scale (no allowances at all, starting at higher point)?

Like I said im not sure if unqualified teachers were ever able to claim the degree allowance.

The bottom line seems to be from reading circulars and other des documents that if you were paid an allowance before Feb you keep it if you weren't you won't get it.

It is interesting to note that the des made a business case to keep qualification allowances albeit capped at the Hons degree level.

Their submission is worth a read. Obviously someone in the dept of finance/ public sector reform didn't agree.

dambarude

bdoo wrote: »

Like I said im not sure if unqualified teachers were ever able to claim the degree allowance.

The bottom line seems to be from reading circulars and other des documents that if you were paid an allowance before Feb you keep it if you weren't you won't get it.

It is interesting to note that the des made a business case to keep qualification allowances albeit capped at the Hons degree level.

Their submission is worth a read. Obviously someone in the dept of finance/ public sector reform didn't agree.

It's very interesting reading indeed. I don't think that the DES was the real enemy here at all. The case made by them was incredibly fair, and actually pointed out that teachers had already been cut by more than any other public servant before the allowances were removed. Their advice to the DPER seems to have been ignored. DPER had to make cuts somewhere to save face, and unfortunately new teachers fell under the knife.

The faux outrage of the unions is maddening.

bdoo

dambarude wrote: »

bdoo wrote: »

Like I said im not sure if unqualified teachers were ever able to claim the degree allowance.

The bottom line seems to be from reading circulars and other des documents that if you were paid an allowance before Feb you keep it if you weren't you won't get it.

It is interesting to note that the des made a business case to keep qualification allowances albeit capped at the Hons degree level.

Their submission is worth a read. Obviously someone in the dept of finance/ public sector reform didn't agree.

It's very interesting reading indeed. I don't think that the DES was the real enemy here at all. The case made by them was incredibly fair, and actually pointed out that teachers had already been cut by more than any other public servant before the allowances were removed. Their advice to the DPER seems to have been ignored. DPER had to make cuts somewhere to save face, and unfortunately new teachers fell under the knife.

The faux outrage of the unions is maddening.

The unions are pretty powerless on this one as the members can't / won't take industrial action. Croke park guarantees industrial peace.

There is no reduction in pay if you enter at a reduced rate. It's sick but I don't know what they can do.

doc_17

The Teaching Council regulates our profession...yet they remain silent when this discrimintion is taking place. Pathetic

dambarude

doc_17 wrote: »

The Teaching Council regulates our profession...yet they remain silent when this discrimintion is taking place. Pathetic

They told me in an email that they had allayed the concerns I raised to the DES. It'll be interesting to see if they make a statement on the issue. The 'no role to play in pay and conditions' line will surely be trotted out.

Delphi91

Mardy Bum wrote: »

So those who have worked before February but not before January 2011 will be entitled to the revised pay scale with allowances?

The relevant paragraph from circular 03/12 is as follows:

Pending the outcome of the review by the Department of Public Expenditure and Reform, allowances are not payable to new beneficiaries; ie those who become eligible for receipt of the allowance in question on or after 1 February 2012. No additions to the common basic pay scale may be paid to new beneficiaries. Examples of such additions include any form of qualification allowance or the supervision and substitution payment paid to teachers, and the secretary to Board of Management allowance paid to Principals.

bdoo

From tui website.

Following the review of public sector allowances, the main outcomes affecting teachers are as follows:

Qualification allowances have been abolished for new beneficiaries. These allowances had been suspended for all new beneficiaries in February 2012.

New teachers will now commence on the fourth point of the revised salary scale (€30,702)

New beneficiaries may also join the Supervision & Substitution scheme and will receive an allowance for this. However, they will have to provide an additional 12 hours

Geologyrocks

The TC did actually make a statement when the allowances were just frozen stating that they were against the move and that it would have implications for the standard of teachers in the future. It just shows how slow they are to do anything though seeing that they have not made a statement now that the allowances are gone.
I wonder if they decided to up the point to 4 and get rid of the allowances as the allowances might be cut anyway in CP2?

TheBody

From the rte website:

The TUI's Executive Committee is to meet this evening to consider its options.
General Secretary John MacGabhann said the new lower salaries threatened to destroy teaching as a profession.
He said new teachers had been singled out for a succession of particularly punitive attacks.
The union said the new salary means a teacher starting today will earn 22% less than a similarly qualified teacher who started two years ago.
Speaking on RTE's Drivetime, Mr MacGahann denied that cuts to wages of entry level teachers were a direct consequence of the Croke Park Agreement, as negotiated and agreed upon by it and other unions.
He said that it was instead the result of "a cynical decision of government."
"We believe that the agenda here is to collapse not just the pay of new entrants, but to use that as a lever to secure a collapse in the whole system of pay for public servants," Mr MacGabhann said.