Team Stacking

twinytwo

The local had two games this weekend, A J1 game and a J3 game. Both were lost due to the opposition stacking their teams with players from higher teams. The J3's held out for the first half but eventually got hockied in the second once they got gased. 12 of the opposition starting 15 were J1 players. The J1's ending up playing against some guys who were professionals not so long ago. Now maybe its just me and iv been away for too long but this seems to be getting worse every year, and it is done for the sake of winning.

My attitude is why bother playing if your just going to stack the team, now i understand that players get injured and you may have no choice but to play one or two guys from different levels but to essentially play a j1 team in a j3 game is bit excessive is it not?

GerM

Happens every week with big clubs who have multiple adult sides. Is very difficult to address. What concerns me more isn't the fact that one team is going to get thumped, it's that a lot of lads on a J3 or J4 side take up rugby in their adult years. They're faced with a bloke who has played since he was 12 and has 5 seasons AIL under his belt and now plays J1. The difference in power and technique between those two guys is a nasty injury waiting to happen.

CatFromHue

What are the rules on this type of thing?

I know when I was in college and playing for UL Bohs thirds against Shannon they had one or two players we thought shouldn't have been playing against us (Tom Hayes was one). Our coach had to argue to get their team sheet off them and I don't know what the offence was but we were handed the game even though we lost.

As GerM says above it can be dangerous. The difference in body shapes between our team, with some guys who were only new to the game and others severely hung over, and theirs was massive.

twinytwo

CatFromHue wrote: »

What are the rules on this type of thing?

I know when I was in college and playing for UL Bohs thirds against Shannon they had one or two players we thought shouldn't have been playing against us (Tom Hayes was one). Our coach had to argue to get their team sheet off them and I don't know what the offence was but we were handed the game even though we lost.

As GerM says above it can be dangerous. The difference in body shapes between our team, with some guys who were only new to the game and others severely hung over, and theirs was massive.

I dont know about j1 but senior players can play J1 so long as they havent played a senior game so far that season.

GerM

twinytwo wrote: »

I dont know about j1 but senior players can play J1 so long as they havent played a senior game so far that season.

Not that it's adhered to. I've seen an AIL player at J3 and absolutely smash people for fun with ball in hand before they took him off at half time. He was a No. 8 and powered through people off every scrum. I would say almost every club with three or more adult sides does it.

Luckycharm

GerM wrote: »

Not that it's adhered to. I've seen an AIL player at J3 and absolutely smash people for fun with ball in hand before they took him off at half time. He was a No. 8 and powered through people off every scrum. I would say almost every club with three or more adult sides does it.[/QUOTE]


Thats a bit of a sweeping statement there and doubt it - some clubs are known for it alright.
As for your other statement if a Player has played AIL previously but has lost his place/been injured etc are you saying they should not be allowed for the second team the clubs J1s Agreed they should not be allowed play J3/4 straight away but as players get older etc they do tend go down the levels as they wouldn't be as quick/fit but once the players on the higher teams are of a better standard then I have no issue with it.

GerM

Luckycharm wrote: »

Thats a bit of a sweeping statement there and doubt it - some clubs are known for it alright.
As for your other statement if a Player has played AIL previously but has lost his place/been injured etc are you saying they should not be allowed for the second team the clubs J1s Agreed they should not be allowed play J3/4 straight away but as players get older etc they do tend go down the levels as they wouldn't be as quick/fit but once the players on the higher teams are of a better standard then I have no issue with it.

It might be a general enough statement but I would believe it to be true for the majority of clubs in the Dublin area that have several adult teams. As you say, some clubs are known for doing it on a regular basis but I'd say nearly all of them do it once in a while. I'm not talking about loading the side with a number of players in must win games merely, once in a while, a couple of fellas looking for a game on a Sunday perhaps that didn't get off the bench the day before and there's only 16 or 17 available for the lower team.

I never said they shouldn't be allowed to play for a J1 side. There's a big difference between an AIL squad player coming back in a J1 game and making an appearance for a J3 or J4 side where you literally have guys that may be in their first ever season.

LuckyLloyd

Should it not be the perogative of a club to manage its playing resources in such a way that allows them to win as many matches as possible so long as they don't break any rules in doing so? If there are safety concerns, then additional rules should be written up and implemented.

GerM

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Should it not be the perogative of a club to manage its playing resources in such a way that allows them to win as many matches as possible so long as they don't break any rules in doing so? If there are safety concerns, then additional rules should be written up and implemented.

There are rules in place regarding the grading of players. If a player makes 6 appearances for any combination of higher teams within a season, they can't appear for a lower team. So, if someone appears off the bench 4 times in the AIL and plays twice for the J1 team, they're unable to play for anything below J1. Also, if someone starts a game for a side, they can't appear for any other side that weekend.

Both of those rules will be broken as teams near the climax of the season and are in contention for silverware. There are other rules around but I'm not sure of them.

Luckycharm

GerM wrote: »

It might be a general enough statement but I would believe it to be true for the majority of clubs in the Dublin area that have several adult teams. As you say, some clubs are known for doing it on a regular basis but I'd say nearly all of them do it once in a while. I'm not talking about loading the side with a number of players in must win games merely, once in a while, a couple of fellas looking for a game on a Sunday perhaps that didn't get off the bench the day before and there's only 16 or 17 available for the lower team.

I never said they shouldn't be allowed to play for a J1 side. There's a big difference between an AIL squad player coming back in a J1 game and making an appearance for a J3 or J4 side where you literally have guys that may be in their first ever season.

I think the Prob you are alluding to happens in clubs that don't field teams all the way down which I reckon is a huge issue. For example Rock last year had an AIL team but no J1 and J2 team which means the next team is J3 which is obviously a big step down from AIL. So you wonder if a player does not make the AIL team but is not far off how do they play matches - they def should not be allowed to play J3 as they would be too good. There are quite a few clubs who have a J1 but no J2 etc. J3 is still a decent enough standard where you would expect to come across players who have played higher levels just winding down their playing careers so players who have never played the game and are only learning as you say should really be playing J4/J5.

Theta

GerM wrote: »

Not that it's adhered to. I've seen an AIL player at J3 and absolutely smash people for fun with ball in hand before they took him off at half time. He was a No. 8 and powered through people off every scrum. I would say almost every club with three or more adult sides does it.

The club I play for has 6 adult sides and are looking to maybe setup something for a j6 league and this is something we are dead set against. We have reported other teams for doing it and they have been disciplined. You need decent proof however

locum-motion

Theta wrote: »

The club I play for has 6 adult sides and are looking to maybe setup something for a j6 league and this is something we are dead set against. We have reported other teams for doing it and they have been disciplined. You need decent proof however

When I first read that, I thought the "this" you were referring to was "setting up a J6 league". I couldn't understand it. The I realised that "this" refers to team stacking.

I presume it's impossible for a club like this one to enter two teams into a J3 or J4 competition, is it?

Perhaps your club needs to investigate the possibility of separating it's lower teams into two 'feeder' clubs.
ie. If your club is Anytown RFC, well then perhaps Anytown RFC could field teams in say J1 and J2 competition, and then you could have Anytown Rovers RFC and Anytown Rangers RFC that have slightly different jerseys and that each field a team in J3 and J4 competitions. Obviously, once someone has played for Rovers, they couldn't then play for Rangers in the same season. I don't know if this sort of arrangement would be permitted or not, but something similar used to occur in the Scottish town of Galashiels, where there were two rugby clubs at lower levels, but they had only one combined 1st XV. One of them was called Gala YM ( for 'Young Men'), I can't remember the name of the other.

ps just looked it up; the second one is called Wanderers.

Trojan

Video everything. Smartphone video is pretty good quality and could be used as evidence. Bonus is it can be used for analysis too

As an occasional J4 player playing very casually for fun, I don't want a serious injury because someone stacks an opposition front row.

Guy:Incognito

locum-motion wrote: »

I presume it's impossible for a club like this one to enter two teams into a J3 or J4 competition, is it?
.

Marys had 2 J4 teams last year or the year before did they not?

Theta

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Marys had 2 J4 teams last year or the year before did they not?

Yup a J4 and J4 development I think but they could do that because the J4 league is split into two.

cmdrpaddy

Trojan wrote: »

Video everything. Smartphone video is pretty good quality and could be used as evidence. Bonus is it can be used for analysis too

As an occasional J4 player playing very casually for fun, I don't want a serious injury because someone stacks an opposition front row.

Having been at a meeting about J4 rule changes etc. earlier this year I heard that a team (possibly teams) had been punished recently enough for submitting a teamsheet with names of players not playing.

Photos from the game and facebook comments were supposedly used to prove the allegation.

So yeah, take lots of photos of all your games and get a copy of the opposition team sheets from the referee.

Luckycharm

When I started playing quite a few clubs fielded teams all the way to J8 where they all had leagues plus Under 19's etc. During my playing time I played for every team from J7 (when starting out) to Senior 1sts (only a couple of times) when they had quite a few injuries scored a try for each one as well.

dregin

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Marys had 2 J4 teams last year or the year before did they not?

Mary's, Terenure and Barnhall all have 2 J4 teams in for this season.