What are they doing with that analogue space?

bealtine

http://www.thejournal.ie/what-are-they-doing-with-that-analogue-space-593817-Sep2012/?utm_source=twitter_self

THE UNUSED WHITE space that will be left idle once the Irish analogue TV signals are switched off are up for grabs says wireless communications expert Professor Linda Doyle.
There is an opportunity for both consumers and the communications industry to utilise the ‘white spaces’ that will surround the new digital signals of the Saorview system which means that these frequencies could be used for “super wi-fi” spectrums.
In accordance with EU directives analogue TV must be switched off and it will be replaced with terrestrial digital TV. When this happens in October, there will be empty frequencies in the TV bands which she says could potentially be used for other services. Speaking to TheJournal.ie Professor Doyle of Trinity College Dublin said:
Frequencies or spectrum is a scarce resource. There is much demand for more frequencies as we use more data on our mobile phones so we need more and more wireless connections. The New York Times highlighted this issue, where wireless carriers have warned of a crisis in frequencies.
She said in next few years wireless carriers may not have enough frequencies or spectrum to meet the exploding demands of mobile data. The result, she warns, may be slower or spotty connections on smart phones and tablets.
The way I explain it is – for instance, on New Year’s Eve it can be difficult to get your texts or phone calls because more people are using the signal – as we go forward and we are using more and more wireless devices and streaming videos it will have the same effect. We will be using a lot more wireless spectrums so there will be an increasing crunch and we need to find innovative ways of how to solve that problem. The quality of the frequencies will drop or lose quality the more they are overloaded so we need to find new frequencies – the empty frequencies in the TV bands are of huge interest – because the spectrum is so precious.
Professor Doyle said there has been a lot of discussion worldwide about how the spectrum can be used. “Some feel these frequencies should be made available just like the wifi frequencies are made available – in a very open way with no need for a license. In contrast with this mobile phone operators need to spend large amounts of money buying licenses for frequencies – the next Irish auction for 4G frequencies is at the end of this month for example”.
She said there are technical challenges adding “TV broadcasters are not completely convinced that the new unlicensed systems in the empty spaces would not cause problems by leaking signals into the frequencies of the TV broadcasters – such as causing interference”.
She said that there is a strong feeling that open unlicensed frequencies lead to great innovation and opportunity.
Ireland is in a unique position to do a lot of experimentation because we don’t have a huge population and our spectrum isn’t overcrowded yet. “We are not really doing enough, we should be saying – lets do something different. Among the things that could be done in the TV bands – are larger hotspots (because the signals go further), rural broadband and machine-to-machine applications.
Trials to use these TV white spaces have taken place in the UK and the USA and both Ofcom and the FCC have developed regulatory policies for using the bands.
The Commission for Communications Regulation has of yet taken no action as to what to do in TV white space but Professor Doyle said they state they have longer-term future plans.
Centre for Telecommunications Value-chain Research (CTVR) is holding a ‘Filling the White Noise’ workshop later this month which Doyle says will be focused on spurring people to action. “The purpose of this event is to do more pushing by showing what is happening elsewhere and trying to get people to move on this” said Doyle.

‘Filling the White Noise’ workshop will take place on Wednesday 26th September in The Science Gallery, Trinty College from 10am-5pm.

watty

I've been at a lecture by Linda Doyle sponsored by Comreg. I'd rate it 1 out 5. Her "thing" is "Cognitive Radio", definitely not an unbiased expert.

She said there are technical challenges adding “TV broadcasters are not completely convinced that the new unlicensed systems in the empty spaces would not cause problems by leaking signals into the frequencies of the TV broadcasters – such as causing interference”.

The challenge is that it suits the "market" and Gadget maker driven philosophy of Comreg, Ofcom and Comreg to promote her unworkable and unscientific ideas.
The whole "white space" radio "thing" is more "hippy" philosophy than any sound mathematics, science or engineering. It sounds "cool" but is unworkable and leads to the destruction of concept protected spectrum and reliable communication. Regulative vandalism of a unique national resource.


I may go and heckle. Or at least ask awkward questions if there is an opportunity.

I'd like to see an expert independent audit of Centre for Telecommunications Value-chain Research (CTVR) at Trinity, UL (Maybe the CTVR involves Maynooth and WIT too, not sure) and other places that shows how much they are doing is actual research or of value and what the tax payers money is paying for. Experts that have not imbibed at the poisoned chalice of "Cognitive" and "White Space" radio.

watty

Linda Doyle was interviewed on RTE 1 Radio news at 6 ish

Rainbows and Unicorns everywhere. Espousing open access "White Space" Radio *IN* the TV band.

Vandalism.

She claimed that it had been tried elsewhere and was very successful. Actually it hasn't yet. Early trials at the FCC all failed. There is no evidence at all anywhere that this idea will deliver Rural Broadband and also not Interfere with Digital TV. Especially none for the Licence free but with "rules" that she proposes. Nor are the Mobile Operators relevant.

What is proved in USA, Caribbean, Canada, Czech Republic, Africa, Ireland etc is that REGULATED, LICENSED centrally planned FIXED WIRELESS can deliver real Broadband, if truly Fibre can't be run. Mobile hasn't ever delivered Broadband. "White Space Radio" in theory will interfere with TV, which is why apart from temporary controlled licensed Broadcaster re-use "White Space" has never been utilised. If rolled out it will disrupt LICENSED TV broadcast for Tens of Thousands. The "licence free" or "Open" bands have been proven useless for reliable commercial services. They are only of use for SRD (Short Range Devices) like WiFi with a 30m range.

clohamon

I suppose it's getting serious when Dolly Parton has to register her radio mike.
And Professor Doyle seems to be quite well connected.

Capt'n Midnight

watty wrote: »

Her "thing" is "Cognitive Radio", definitely not an unbiased expert.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_radio

Interference processing Avoidance by spectrum sensing

so it's collision detection but you have to take into account flight time of packets

watty

It's been proved 40+ years ago that performance and avoidance of the Hidden Station problem is impossible.

so it's collision detection but you have to take into account flight time of packets

Also the Hidden Transmitter and Receiver syndrome. Which can't even be solved by databases.
So called "Cognitive Radio" is ultimately only safe to use on a dedicated band, for WiFi type applications. Using it for so called "White Space" communications on a Broadcast band would cause reception problems for 10s of thousands of viewers or listeners nationwide as the so called "cognitive" Radio can only sense Transmitters, it can't know about receivers that are using Transmitters it can't hear, but would be seriously compromised by its Transmission.

So the next idea was to actually use a database of Transmitters. Except this idea doesn't work either for MANY reasons, some technical and some social.

Packet Radio controlled by microcontrollers is long established and the problems are well known and proven.

Capt'n Midnight

watty wrote: »

It's been proved 40+ years ago that performance and avoidance of the Hidden Station problem is impossible.

ignore all that

Lets say I'm a Chinese engineer and I have to design one of these wide band devices. I'd just make a device that transmitted on the quietest frequency it found. Job done, I'm off down the pub.

I don't even need to implement any protocols since I'm going to ignore them because all the other compliant devices are supposed to back off. And the thing is I may get better throughput than a more complex, power hungry and expensive but compliant device.

watty

And the user will add 20dB power amplifier.

The point is that the Broadcast transmitters don't back off or change frequency and the Broadcast receiver is "listening" to a Broadcast the gadget can't hear because it's at ground level, behind a wall whatever and the viewer/listeners in an entire area on slightly higher ground or apartment block lose their signal.

Your "broken" scenario doesn't work for "White space" AT ALL, only for say a dedicated ad hoc personal data link band.

You can demonstrate this with 2.4GHz or 5.8GHz licence free gear.

Get 2 x video sender kits (one on 2.4 and one one 5.8GHz) and a pair of automatic adaptive WiFi Airpoints that auto choose the channels. 2 clients on each WiFi

You can set it up so that the WiFi points can't hear each other OR the Video senders and such that only one client "works" on each and both Video Sender Receivers are jammed and two WiFi clients can only see the "wrong" Air point.

This is an easy to set up demo using the latest auto channel searching Cognitive WiFi kit and proves in less than 20minutes that most of what Linda Doyle and others have promoted about White Space Radio and Cognitive radio is nonsense that only works if EVERY node can communicate with a central database in real time. Including all the TV receivers!

Before we consider "Chinese" engineers (employed by massively rich US companies?) and that users will not try to cheat by increasing power, selfishly disabling listening or blocking database access.

Yet Comreg think this is a good idea!

But then a chocolate teapot is more use that Comreg has been protecting spectrum users or regulating anyone. You can eat Chocolate.

Capt'n Midnight

watty wrote: »

Cognitive radio is nonsense that only works if EVERY node can communicate with a central database in real time. Including all the TV receivers!

qft

Anyone remember the old power hack on the Linksys WAP11 ?
there was noise even out side the WiFi band

But then a chocolate teapot is more use that Comreg has been protecting spectrum users or regulating anyone. You can eat Chocolate.

Actually :pac:
http://www.thenakedscientists.com/HTML/content/kitchenscience/exp/how-useless-is-a-chocolate-teapot/ The teapot was made by melting down about 1.3kg of chocolate ...