Alternative (extinct or contemporary) Christianity

Sulla Felix

Not sure how well this thread will work but we'll see. I'm largely interested in the history of Christianity and the historiography to a degree but I also find comparing the different beliefs of competing divisions to be diverting. I'll hold my hand up and say from the start that I'm an atheist and that I'm not looking for a revelation of faith in any of this.

So, as to the title, are there any? I guess I'm presuming that the major threads of modern Christianity are quite similar, and at least from an outsiders perspective they seem to be. CoI, Catholicism et al don't seem to have any truly earth shattering differences at least in terms of their core beliefs.

I've been reading a lot of Roman and Byzantine history though and there's a large vein of schism and strife, it seems at least, running through the early Church and I know by name at least, of things like the Albigensian heretics. The distinction between homoiousian/homoousian, Sibellian/Trinitarian are explicit and I know people have died probably in their tens of thousands over them but they seem to be all of a single sliding scale rather than an entirely different paradigm. The closest I've come to something that had to me at least, fundamental differences, was reading the Gospel of Judas and some of the literature around that. A Church founded upon some of those claims might be a very different creature.

PDN

Sulla Felix wrote: »

The distinction between homoiousian/homoousian, Sibellian/Trinitarian are explicit and I know people have died probably in their tens of thousands over them but they seem to be all of a single sliding scale rather than an entirely different paradigm.

More like a few hundred deaths over those particular issues (which is still IMHO a few hundred too many).

As for major divergences - the most obvious example of this would probably be Islam. More recent ones would be Mormons or Moonies.

georgieporgy

Sulla Felix wrote: »

Not sure how well this thread will work but we'll see. I'm largely interested in the history of Christianity and the historiography to a degree but I also find comparing the different beliefs of competing divisions to be diverting. I'll hold my hand up and say from the start that I'm an atheist and that I'm not looking for a revelation of faith in any of this.

Not sure what you are asking, but it it's a comprehensive history of christianity over the last 2000 years you won't get better than "The History of Christendom Series" by William Carroll

http://www.fraternitypublications.com/the-history-of-christendom-series.html

martinedwards

Sulla Felix wrote: »

CoI, Catholicism et al don't seem to have any truly earth shattering differences at least in terms of their core beliefs.

Oh dear.

there are MASSIVE differences.

have you researched this AT ALL?????????

Sulla Felix

PDN wrote: »

More like a few hundred deaths over those particular issues (which is still IMHO a few hundred too many).

As for major divergences - the most obvious example of this would probably be Islam. More recent ones would be Mormons or Moonies.

Dunno, the Albigensian Crusade at least theologically was for reasons similar to the split in the Byzantine Church over homoiousian and homoousian doctrine no?

Did Islam spring from Christianity? I always had the impression it was more of a spiritual descendant of Judaism. Shared heritage with Christianity sure, they venerate Jesus and Mary but don't believe He was the Messiah.
Actually that raises a question that I might ask over in the Islam forum, to what extent is Islam a Messianic religion. I always had the impression that Judaism and Christianity were quasi-branches of the same religion, one of which was still waiting for the Saviour that the other branch felt had already arrived. Are Muslims waiting for a Messiah?

I'll have to look at the Mormons and Moonies, my familiarity extends to the Daily Show on the former and nothing at all on the latter.

there are MASSIVE differences.

have you researched this AT ALL

Well, no, I wouldn't be asking questions if I thought I knew it all. Largely I study history, and this whole thread was prompted by that so it's only now that I want to look specifically at the historiography of Christianity. Like I said in the OP though, the modern day distinctions don't seem to be all that earth shattering. I'm happy to be illuminated though.

Benny_Cake

Sulla Felix wrote: »

Dunno, the Albigensian Crusade at least theologically was for reasons similar to the split in the Byzantine Church over homoiousian and homoousian doctrine no?

I don't think the two were related at all. The dispute over whether the Son of God was of "the same substance as the Father" (homoouisan), or "similar in substance to the Father" began in the third century. Essentially a group which became known as Arians (named after Arius, a priest from Alexandria) held to the second view, whereas the remainder of the church held to the first view - which became official at the Council of Nicea in 325. It may sound like a petty difference but it goes to the very heart of who Christ is. The Albigensian Crusade was the struggle against the Cathars in the south of France a thousand years later. The Cathars had somewhat gnostic beliefs which were radically different from orthodox Christianity, but they are unrelated to the Arians. The Albigensian Crusade represents one of the darkest chapters in Christian history and the Catholic church didn't cover itself in glory to say the very least.

Sulla Felix wrote: »

Did Islam spring from Christianity? I always had the impression it was more of a spiritual descendant of Judaism. Shared heritage with Christianity sure, they venerate Jesus and Mary but don't believe He was the Messiah.
Actually that raises a question that I might ask over in the Islam forum, to what extent is Islam a Messianic religion. I always had the impression that Judaism and Christianity were quasi-branches of the same religion, one of which was still waiting for the Saviour that the other branch felt had already arrived. Are Muslims waiting for a Messiah?

I wouldn't see Islam as a breakaway from Christianity, although both Judaism and Christianity were influences. Muslims do follow Jesus as a prophet and believe he will return in the last days.

J C

martinedwards wrote: »

Oh dear.

there are MASSIVE differences.

have you researched this AT ALL?????????

They have certainly sweated the 'small stuff' down the years!!!!

The core beliefs all Christian churches are identical ... but there is often an excessive emphasis on the 'bells and whistles'.

Sulla Felix

Benny_Cake wrote: »

I don't think the two were related at all. The dispute over whether the Son of God was of "the same substance as the Father" (homoouisan), or "similar in substance to the Father" began in the third century. Essentially a group which became known as Arians (named after Arius, a priest from Alexandria) held to the second view, whereas the remainder of the church held to the first view - which became official at the Council of Nicea in 325. It may sound like a petty difference but it goes to the very heart of who Christ is. The Albigensian Crusade was the struggle against the Cathars in the south of France a thousand years later. The Cathars had somewhat gnostic beliefs which were radically different from orthodox Christianity, but they are unrelated to the Arians. The Albigensian Crusade represents one of the darkest chapters in Christian history and the Catholic church didn't cover itself in glory to say the very least.

I might be guilty of conflating the two, not my intention but I might be missing a subtlety.

I wouldn't see Islam as a breakaway from Christianity, although both Judaism and Christianity were influences. Muslims do follow Jesus as a prophet and believe he will return in the last days.

Yeah, I've followed that one up over in Islam with some hope of discussion.