Updated Saorview Minimum Receiver Requirements v3.0

The Cush

Version 3.0 (dated 28-03-2012) published on the RTÉNL site in recent days, following the release of the NorDig 2.3 update (last revised in late 2010).

New section 10 - Personal Video Recorder (PVR)

A little bit of history, I've attached the original Dept of Communications Minimum Receiver Requirements for DTT in Ireland, (v1.0, 6 Feb 2008)

Peter Rhea

So receivers now have to have a T2 front end?

The IRD shall be DVB compliant, and shall be able to receive MPEG 2 Transport Streams via a DVB-T or DVB T2 modulated signal, decode the services within that transport stream including all video, audio, data, and subtitling services.

EDIT: I see it's mandatory from January 1st, 2013.

Apogee

As Peter has noted, one of the more interesting additions is the mention of DVB-T2 becoming mandatory from Jan 1st.

RTENL wrote:

All IRD shall support DVB-T demodulation; the support of DVB-T2 is currently optional but will change to mandatory from 1st January 2013 for the Irish DTT network. If the IRD specifies support for DVB-T2, it shall support all DVB-T2 requirements as specified in NorDig Unified IRD specification v2.3 and later.
All IRD shall meet the NorDig M4 HD Level requirements (including advanced codec’s such as MPEG4 AVC HP@L4 HDTV video decoder, HEAAC multi-channel audio decoder, AC3 (Dolby Digital) and Enhanced AC3 (Dolby Digital Plus) multi-channel audio decoder).

Disappointingly, there does not appear to be a requirement to make an ethernet port a mandatory part of the PVR spec.

Sam Russell

Does this mean we are moving closer to the unification of the UK 'D-book' and Nordig?

If we have to have DVB-T2 after 1st Jan 2013, does that mean that all the Saorview certifications have to be re-done?

Sam Russell

Also, they are moving from MHEG 5 v1.06 to MHEG-IC v6.2.1

Now I do not know what the difference is, nor do I know if it is significant.

Rick_

What's the chances of them changing to DVB-T2 anytime soon? That'll piss a lot of people off who bought TVs or STB's for the switchover that have to buy another one soon after! I would have to replace all my TV's in my house if they do to continue getting RTÉ as they are all MPEG4 but none are DVB-T2.

The Cush

Paddy C wrote: »

What's the chances of them changing to DVB-T2 anytime soon?

There are no plans whatsoever to move over to DVB-T2 for the PSB muxes.

Digital Video Broadcasting – Terrestrial (DVB-T) is a European standard (EN 300 744) commonly used to transmit digital TV on terrestrial DTT networks. DVB-T is the transmission standard used in Ireland. Test transmissions of DVB-T started in 2006. International developments in 2009 have seen DVB-T2, a more robust and more efficient coding standard also becoming available (EN 302 755). There are currently no plans to use the DVB –T2 standard for DTT in Ireland.

http://www.comreg.ie/radio_spectrum/digital_technologies.542.417.html

DVB-T2 is part of the Nordig spec because it's used/will be used in Sweden, Finland and Denmark who all use Nordig spec receivers, so it becomes part of our spec by default. I consider it a good future proofing move and could be used by a future pay DTT service here if they ever licence the commercial muxes, also a step closer to a pseudo-standard receiver for Saorview/FreeviewHD reception.

MarkK

I don't think there is much chance of them changing to DVB-T2 for Mux 1 and Mux2 for at least 5 years.
There isn't much point, it's not as if there's a huge demand for more capacity.

Looking at the UK there does not seem to be any sign that the existing 5 SD national muxes will convert to DVB-T2 in the near future, but new national muxes will almost certainly be DVB-T2

Gerry Wicklow

At least it will make things (slightly) easier for those in overspill areas to enjoy the full choice available.

The Cush

Sam Russell wrote: »

Does this mean we are moving closer to the unification of the UK 'D-book' and Nordig?

If we have to have DVB-T2 after 1st Jan 2013, does that mean that all the Saorview certifications have to be re-done?

No, the D-Book and Nordig receiver specifications remain separate and existing receivers don't have to be re-certified.

formerly scottish paddy

Paddy C wrote: »

What's the chances of them changing to DVB-T2 anytime soon? That'll piss a lot of people off who bought TVs or STB's for the switchover that have to buy another one soon after! I would have to replace all my TV's in my house if they do to continue getting RTÉ as they are all MPEG4 but none are DVB-T2.

I don't think that Saorview would be going DVB-T2 anytime soon (except for its transmission on Freeview in N. Ireland!) there would be too much of an outcry about asking the public to buy more new equipment so soon! Look how long people were given to make the move from 405 to 625 lines, RTÉ even kept VHF 625 transmissions going to this day. However I can see the UK moving from MPEG 2 to MPEG 4 DVB-T2 in the forseeable future.

lawhec

Sam Russell wrote: »

Also, they are moving from MHEG 5 v1.06 to MHEG-IC v6.2.1

Now I do not know what the difference is, nor do I know if it is significant.

The difference is that MHEG-IC allows for receivers with the correct MHEG engine to display IPTV services via a broadband connection. It is already available on some Freeview HD TVs and set-top-boxes in the UK. Most of the services are provided through the Vision IPTV network, with a focus on minority, ethnic and foreign programming though Sports Tonight (a free service) and Racing UK (pay) is provided through them as well. Another provider is "The Space" which is under a trial run at present which is also available on some Freesat HD receivers.

The DTT bandwidth required to carry these services is very small, as all it contains is design layout, LCN referencing and TCP/IP handshaking - I believe its something like 32kbps or so for one channel/LCN. From my experience with them, there are pros and cons. Pros are mainly from a broadcasting point of view, cons include the current inability to set PVR recordings, 4:3 streams are stretched on 16:9 displays (these two could be addressed in a future updated MHEG profile), the bitrate and/or resolution on some services isn't great (some of the Greek channels on Vision TV are poor to say the least) and the initial TCP/IP handshaking isn't always reliable when you tune into a channel initially at times; but when it gets working it works well if you have a decent enough broadband speed. In theory the applications for its use can be widespread - it could enable RTÉ, TV3 and TG4 to bring on-demand services e.g. RTÉ Player through approved Saorview receivers, it could be used by specialist broadcasters for whom the fees to broadcast ordinarily on the Saorview transmission network might be too great, pay-TV packages of various kinds could be made available (similar to that offered by Vision TV on Freeview). It certainly has plenty of scope for experimentation. As its main profile, an educated guess would be that other than some software tweeks this will be the last major upgrade in the MHEG profile before HBb becomes introduced through the likes of Freesat, but if it goes by the wayside like MHP has done, MHEG might still have plenty of years left in it.

lawhec

The Cush wrote: »

There are no plans whatsoever to move over to DVB-T2 for the PSB muxes.



DVB-T2 is part of the Nordig spec because it's used/will be used in Sweden, Finland and Denmark who all use Nordig spec receivers, so it becomes part of our spec by default. I consider it a good future proofing move and could be used by a future pay DTT service here if they ever licence the commercial muxes, also a step closer to a pseudo-standard receiver for Saorview/FreeviewHD reception.

As The Cush says, it's very much a future-proofing aspect to any mid-to-long term future of the Saorview platform. DVB-T2 is a very flexible and efficient mode of transmission and is capable of transmission abilities that while may not be currently considered may prove useful in the future.

For example in the (seemingly unlikely) future that high power allocations may become scarce in the Republic, the efficiencies that DVB-T2 operates with compared to DVB-T could allow for services to transmit at low powers but have a coverage area similar to that of high power broadcasts at the same site with a trade-off in capacity. DVB-T of course is already capable of doing that but T2 can give significantly better returns, the NIMM that is destined to carry RTÉ and TG4 TV services in Northern Ireland after 24th October is one example. It will be broadcast with the configuration of DVB-T2, 8MHz RF bandwidth, COFDM 32k, Guard Interval 1/128, QPSK Modulation and FEC 2/3 giving a useful bit rate of just over 10Mbps with a Rayleigh C/N ratio of 4.9db. OTOH Saorview requires a Rayleigh C/N of 20.3db. To provide a DVB-T multiplex with coverage similar (in fact slightly worse) to that planned for the NIMM with the same output power with a configuration of DVB-T, 8MHz RF bandwidth, COFDM 8k, Guard Interval 1/32, QPSK Modulation and FEC 1/2 (i.e. the most robust mode possible in a multi-frequency network) gives a Rayleigh C/N of 5.9db (1db worse) and a bit rate of just over 6Mbps. In this case the NIMM configuration gives slightly better coverage with a bit rate that is over 60% higher. Couple this with the use of MPEG4 video over MPEG2, and the decision to go with DVB-T2 for the NIMM is a no-brainer.

Another advantage is that the larger amount of carriers (32k as opposed to 8k) available to transmit with DVB-T2 allows for more expansive single frequency networks.

MarkK wrote: »

Looking at the UK there does not seem to be any sign that the existing 5 SD national muxes will convert to DVB-T2 in the near future, but new national muxes will almost certainly be DVB-T2

The commercial multiplex operators (SDN & Arqiva) would certainly like to move to broadcasting with DVB-T2 down the line. They have already made a technical change to their multiplexes of changing the FEC to 3/4 from 2/3 to yield an additional ~3Mbps. More bitrate available and using MPEG4 over MPEG2 means more room to accommodate more broadcasters including those interested in HD broadcasting. One main stumbling block however is the lack of small-screen (22 inch or less) televisions currently sold with a built-in Freeview HD tuner. Obviously the present thinking is that HD is wasted on such screen sizes. It'll likely become more common in future. Another is a suggestion floating about that as part of a future 700MHz band clearance the three commercial multiplexes would broadcast on a UK-wide SFN, DVB-T2 would be an ideal candidate for this.

ardmacha

For example in the (seemingly unlikely) future that high power allocations may become scarce in the Republic, the efficiencies that DVB-T2 operates with compared to DVB-T could allow for services to transmit at low powers but have a coverage area similar to that of high power broadcasts at the same site with a trade-off in capacity.

What are the implications of these technical differences on the reach of Freeview HD in fringe areas versus regular Freeview post October?

Peter Rhea

ardmacha wrote: »

What are the implications of these technical differences on the reach of Freeview HD in fringe areas versus regular Freeview post October?

I think this post provides some explanation. Saorview uses the same parameters as the (post DSO) Freeview PSB muxes afaia.

lawhec

ardmacha wrote: »

What are the implications of these technical differences on the reach of Freeview HD in fringe areas versus regular Freeview post October?

Other than potential co-channel interference, the coverage of the HD multiplex should be about the same as that for the BBC A and D3&4 multiplex when transmitted at the same power, at least analysing with Rayleigh scattering giving a minimum C/N ratio of 20.3db being required. However under Rice's theorem and AWGN measurements, the planned coverage based on C/N is slightly worse for the DVB-T2 HD multiplex compared to the 2 DVB-T SD multiplexes. But in areas of Britain where DSO has now been completed there's next to no complaints of someone not receiving the HD multiplex but getting BBC A and D3&4 with Freeview HD approved equipment (though I do recall one poster here on boards.ie who could get the two SD multiplexes from the IoM OK but not a hint of the HD multiplex for some reason). I'd imagine that were such a scenario to occur, the two SD multiplexes would be on the cliff-edge of reception.

This is a good calculator where you can tally up different DVB-T, DVB-H and DVB-T2 configurations to see what transmission configurations can be achieved to give available bit rates, maximum distances for direct reception of several transmitters in SFNs, minimum required C/N, maximum speed limits for reception whilst travelling and so on (for Freeview HD, PP7 is the pilot pattern). There's also a link to calculate DVB-S(2) data rates as well for satellite.

lawhec

Peter Rhea wrote: »

I think this post provides some explanation. Saorview uses the same parameters as the (post DSO) Freeview PSB muxes afaia.

Saorview
Transmission System: DVB-T
RF Bandwidth: 8MHz (7MHz for VHF if ever used)
COFDM: 8k
Guard: 1/32
Modulation: 64QAM
FEC: 2/3
Usable data rate: 24.128Mbps (21.112Mbps for 7MHz transmission)
Minimum Rayleigh C/N required: 20.3db

Freeview pre-DSO Muxs 1, B, C & D
Transmission System: DVB-T
RF Bandwidth: 8MHz
COFDM: 2k
Guard: 1/32
Modulation: 16QAM
FEC: 3/4
Usable data rate: 18.096Mbps
Minimum Rayleigh C/N required: 18.1db

Freeview pre-DSO Muxs 2 & A
Transmission System: DVB-T
RF Bandwidth: 8MHz
COFDM: 2K
Guard: 1/32
Modulation: 64QAM
FEC: 2/3
Usable data rate: 24.128Mbps
Minimum Rayleigh C/N required: 20.3db

Freeview post-DSO Muxs BBC A & D3&4
Transmission System: DVB-T
RF Bandwidth: 8MHz
COFDM: 8K
Guard: 1/32
Modulation: 64QAM
FEC: 2/3
Usable data rate: 24.128Mbps
Minimum Rayleigh C/N required: 20.3db

Freeview post-DSO Muxs SDN, Arqiva A & Arqiva B
Transmission System: DVB-T
RF Bandwidth: 8MHz
COFDM: 8K
Guard: 1/32
Modulation: 64QAM
FEC: 3/4
Usable data rate: 27.144Mbps
Minimum Rayleigh C/N required: 23.0db

Freeview BBC B HD Multiplex
Transmission System: DVB-T2
Pilot Pattern: PP7
RF Bandwidth: 8MHz
COFDM: 32k extended
Guard: 1/128
Modulation: 256QAM
FEC: 2/3
Usable data rate: 40.231Mbps
Minimum Rayleigh C/N required: 20.3db

Freeview NIMM Multiplex
Transmission System: DVB-T2
Pilot Pattern: PP7
RF Bandwidth: 8MHz
COFDM: 32k extended
Guard: 1/128
Modulation: QPSK
FEC: 2/3
Usable data rate: 10.032Mbps
Minimum Rayleigh C/N required: 4.9db

Freeview "local" multiplexes (proposed, subject to each individual licensee)
Transmission System: DVB-T
RF Bandwidth: 8MHz
COFDM: 8K
Guard: 1/32
Modulation: QPSK
FEC: 3/4 (2/3 is also suggested)
Usable data rate: 9.048Mbps (8.043Mbps for 2/3 FEC)
Minimum Rayleigh C/N required: 12.4db (9.6db for 2/3 FEC)

The Cush

This from the DMOL site

reslfj

formerly scottish paddy wrote: »

I don't think that Saorview would be going DVB-T2 anytime soon .

MarkK wrote: »

...Looking at the UK there does not seem to be any sign that the existing 5 SD national muxes will convert to DVB-T2 in the near future...

While I do agree - not anytime soon - you will likely not see anything before it happens.


This forum had 4-5 years ago a large number of posts very much like yours - except they were about staying with MPEG-2 and not moving to MPEG-4. One day MPEG-4 happened and DSO would have happened a lot sooner - I think - with less financial crisis and more (Boxer) pay-TV.


There will always be some with new TV sets that dislike a change 'right now'. Next year it will be others. The real questions are:

• Will more viewers or less viewers be hurt by a change done this year compared to changing next year or maybe the year after?
• Can we mitigate the impact for existing viewers without limiting the benefits for buyers of new equipment to much and for to long?

Simulcast is one (expensive) option. Making new features mandatory before they are put into use - like DVB-T2 from 2013 - is another.


Note that Ofcom in the UK effectively forced both DVB-T2 and MPEG-4 to be changed at the same time (same box). Ofcom announced that they would never license MPEG-4 compressed channels on the UK-DTT network without a requirement to use DVB-T2 too. This policy killed the 'picnic' DTT project (DVB-T/MPEG-4 SD-only).
Ofcom delayed the UK MPEG-4 market by maybe 12-18 months, but most/all UK DTT viewers were saved from an extra box-swap.


Lars

lucernarian

The original receiver requirements suggest that MHEG5 v1.06 was not part of the spec for basic receivers. At what point did MHEG5 become a mandatory part of the spec for all receivers?

The Cush

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

At what point did MHEG5 become a mandatory part of the spec for all receivers?

From version 1 of RTÉ's (Saorview) minimum receiver spec back in Dec 2008.

watty

It was also highly likely a year earlier as in 2006/2007 it was obvious the 2001 choice, MHP, was essentially dead. Dec 2008 was only official confirmation. Just like obvious in 2006 that transmission would be MPEG4 only even though the official spec was March 2008.

The Retail Industry has had PLENTY of time to source even uncertified stuff very likely to be 100% compatible. Instead they flogged huge quantities of Freeview only TVs and now generic set-boxes that lack needed features. They are pathetic, as is the Government for not enforcing the clear labelling they recommended, or even the French approach of ban on Retail sales of non-certified gear.

STB

The Cush wrote: »

From version 1 of RTÉ's (Saorview) minimum receiver spec back in Dec 2008.

The very first spec published is dated 6 February, 2008. You have uploaded it and it is linked in your post. Its actually an RTENL document not a DCMNR document.

MHEG5 was always a basic requirement.

The Cush

STB wrote: »

The very first spec published is dated 6 February, 2008. You have uploaded it and it is linked in your post. Its actually an RTENL document not a DCMNR document.

MHEG5 was always a basic requirement.

MHEG-5 was a recommended feature of the Feb 2008 spec and mandatory in the Dec 2008 spec.

The Feb 2008 min. receiver spec I posted in the first post was only ever available for download from the Dept website (original download address - http://www.digitaltelevision.ie/NR/rdonlyres/BFED0C82-501B-42E0-8F38-0789EA604497/0/MinimumReceiverRequirementsforDTTinIrelandv10.pdf), the document was developed by the DTT Specification Working Group - I assume a Dept committee comprising stakeholders such as RTÉNL, Comreg etc.

Sponge Bob

MHEG-IC is sort of pointless absent mandatory ethernet, I agree. If you are going to add ethernet you should also add NAS protocols.

watty

You need 30Mbps universal Broadband minimum for HbbTV or MHEC-IC etc...

So mostly really UPC customers (TV is optional and even real VOD/Netflix is possible on UPC without TV sub).

lucernarian

STB wrote: »

The very first spec published is dated 6 February, 2008. You have uploaded it and it is linked in your post. Its actually an RTENL document not a DCMNR document.

MHEG5 was always a basic requirement.

That is incorrect, the document I read lists MHEG5 capabilities as a mandatory part of the "enhanced" receiver spec, not of the "basic" spec. I couldn't find out the chronological order of documents where this changed to a mandatory spec.

The Cush

To_be_confirmed wrote: »

I couldn't find out the chronological order of documents where this changed to a mandatory spec.

This from the Dec 2008 RTÉ min receiver spec, version 1.

MHEG-5 UK Profile, version 1.06 mandatory on all IRDs