Double Taxation - Property.

Dannyboy83

Does anyone know if the government have addressed the double taxation issue with regard to Stamp Duty/Property Tax from 2013 onward?

I've been looking for discussion on the issue, but I haven't been able to find any acknowledgement by the government.

thebman

Half of what I pay is double taxed so I'm not sure they'll see the problem or care.

Dannyboy83

thebman wrote: »

Half of what I pay is double taxed so I'm not sure they'll see the problem or care.

That would be my opinion too, but given they own the biggest property company in the world, surely they have to care?

Gain a penny now, lose 3 euro later...

ardmacha

What's the problem. You pay tax when you buy a car and have an annual tax.

barneystinson

I'm confused. Stamp duty is a transaction tax, and it doesn't only apply to residential property. The property tax will, apparently, be an asset based tax - if you own the asset on a particular date you are liable for the tax.

It's no more or less a double tax than the fact that your wages are net of PAYE, but then you pay VAT on your petrol...

Cookie_Monster

barneystinson wrote: »

I'm confused. Stamp duty is a transaction tax, and it doesn't only apply to residential property.

this. Stamp duty is not a property tax, it is a transaction tax and there not the same as the new property tax and not double taxation

later12

I'm also curious as to why you think the government would feel a moral imperative to address this. 'Double taxation', or what is commonly referred to under that heading, is widespread practice in Ireland and elsewhere in the EU.

later12

later12 wrote: »

I'm also curious as to why you think the government would feel a moral imperative to address this. 'Double taxation', or what is commonly referred to under that heading, is widespread practice in Ireland and elsewhere in the EU.

The only thing I can think of is tax relief on pensions so income tax isn't charged twice, maybe that's what people are thinking of.

Farmer Pudsey

Deleted User wrote: »

The only thing I can think of is tax relief on pensions so income tax isn't charged twice, maybe that's what people are thinking of.

And that is abused wholesale by the pension industry. However this thread is not the place to debate it

hognef

later12 wrote: »

I'm also curious as to why you think the government would feel a moral imperative to address this. 'Double taxation', or what is commonly referred to under that heading, is widespread practice in Ireland and elsewhere in the EU.

Double taxation is an common issue when people, during a certain tax period, have income arising from, or assets in, more than once jurisdiction. Most countries (well, western ones anyway) have bilateral tax treaties with the intent of avoiding double taxation, by defining which jurisdiction has the right to tax a particular portion of taxable income/asset.

I have in the past had to deal with two jurisdictions that both (according to their particular tax regulations) would have a tax claim against my income (as a result of moving between countries during a tax year), and have had to refer to said double taxation treaties to restrict my tax liability to only one of the two.

Gurgle

ardmacha wrote: »

What's the problem. You pay tax when you buy a car and have an annual tax.

You pay VAT on the purchase of the car.
You pay VRT to register it, allowing it to be used on public roads.
You pay road tax for each year you use it.

I'm not saying its right or wrong (in principle I have no problem with it, in practice its an extortionate amount) but its not double taxation.

creedp

Gurgle wrote: »

You pay VAT on the purchase of the car.
You pay VRT to register it, allowing it to be used on public roads.
You pay road tax for each year you use it.

I'm not saying its right or wrong (in principle I have no problem with it, in practice its an extortionate amount) but its not double taxation.

What would kill me is if the Govt decide that anone who purchased a house between 2 dates could write off their stamp duty against the property tax while outide of this period you could fcuk right off!! Apologies but that would really make me snap!!

ardmacha

What would kill me is if the Govt decide that anone who purchased a house between 2 dates could write off their stamp duty against the property tax while outide of this period you could fcuk right off!! Apologies but that would really make me snap!!

I think something like a 10 year window would be appropriate. This recognises the issue but does not go on for ever and an increasing yield for the tax could be predicted which would suit requirements.

creedp

ardmacha wrote: »

I think something like a 10 year window would be appropriate. This recognises the issue but does not go on for ever and an increasing yield for the tax could be predicted which would suit requirements.

My issue is not necessarily with the lenght of the window but an arbitrary cut-off point based on some arbitrary/subjective criteria such as persons who bought a house between August 2004 and August 2008. What about the poor sod who paid stamp duty in 2000, 2001, 2002 etc. Either you can write off your stamp duty or you can't .. there are enough arbitrary bases for discrimination in this country already without creating more and if that means no write off for anyone then so be it!

Farmer Pudsey

What about people who purchassed new houses in that period who paid no stamp duty but inflated house prices maybe they should get a discount as well, and what about all the owners of houses that were below the stamp duty rate but paid inflated prices for them because they were below this level.

Maybe when water rates come in we should look into a reason these should be discounted as well.

Dannyboy83

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

What about people who purchassed new houses in that period who paid no stamp duty but inflated house prices maybe they should get a discount as well, and what about all the owners of houses that were below the stamp duty rate but paid inflated prices for them because they were below this level.

Maybe when water rates come in we should look into a reason these should be discounted as well.

Probably a good example of why the issue cannot be tackled retrospectively in a straightforward manner. Much like people who bought a low emissions car pre-2008 didn't qualify for lower road tax.
A bureaucratic decision, 'fairness' doesn't enter the equation.

Irish governments (with the exception of the Greens I think it's fair to say) don't think in the long term because they don't have to.
It's usually short term, so I don't suppose the above is even on the agenda.

The immediate objective is to reduce the deficit. A
They see a new revenue stream. D
They join the dots, A to D.

Points B (negative equity, mortgage default) & C (lack of spending, broken domestic economy) won't immediately affect their administration anymore than they already do, so it's not considered.
It's a problem for the next administration to consider...


But the issue can be tackled definitively from the beginning of the new system, for new comers. A bureaucratic decision.

The Tree of Liberty

It is one of the big issues a lot of people calling for a property tax are ignoring. In a lot of countries with property taxes they are allowable against your taxable income. So far in Ireland it seems as though you will have to pay property tax from income that is already taxed.

barneystinson

The Tree of Liberty wrote: »

It is one of the big issues a lot of people calling for a property tax are ignoring. In a lot of countries with property taxes they are allowable against your taxable income. So far in Ireland it seems as though you will have to pay property tax from income that is already taxed.

If the tax is allowed as a deduction against total income it becomes completely regressive, as people with higher incomes will get 41% relief, and people who aren't in the income tax net get no relief.

The Tree of Liberty

barneystinson wrote: »

If the tax is allowed as a deduction against total income it becomes completely regressive, as people with higher incomes will get 41% relief, and people who aren't in the income tax net get no relief.

The people with the higher incomes have already paid tax and it is a property tax not an income tax.

barneystinson

The Tree of Liberty wrote: »

barneystinson wrote: »

If the tax is allowed as a deduction against total income it becomes completely regressive, as people with higher incomes will get 41% relief, and people who aren't in the income tax net get no relief.

The people with the higher incomes have already paid tax and it is a property tax not an income tax.

The fact remains if you allow a deduction against total income then the economic cost to a low income payer of the tax is proportionately greater than the cost to the high income payer. That is regressive.

Good loser

The Tree of Liberty wrote: »

It is one of the big issues a lot of people calling for a property tax are ignoring. In a lot of countries with property taxes they are allowable against your taxable income. So far in Ireland it seems as though you will have to pay property tax from income that is already taxed.

Are you sure about that? It doesn't happen in Britain or the North.

Income tax and property tax should not be related.

Else you will have 'neither fish nor fowl'.

It's an unecessary complication. It will be difficult enough to implement a property tax without involving incomes.

One is levied on accumulated residential property wealth while the other taxes annual incomes.

Personally I wouldn't mind some kind of cap whereby an occupier would not have to pay more than, say, 10% of their GROSS ANNUAL INCOME in household tax.

Stheno

barneystinson wrote: »

The fact remains if you allow a deduction against total income then the economic cost to a low income payer of the tax is proportionately greater than the cost to the high income payer. That is regressive.

If you can get a deduction against income tax for it, then the most equitable solution is for that deduction to be against the lowest rate of PAYE as happens e.g. with medical expenses so those better off don't benefit?

barneystinson

Stheno wrote: »

If you can get a deduction against income tax for it, then the most equitable solution is for that deduction to be against the lowest rate of PAYE as happens e.g. with medical expenses so those better off don't benefit?

What about people who aren't in the tax net but still liable?

Personally I don't like the idea of having it in any way related to the income tax system - the whole point of it is to widen the tax base.

turbobaby

What about the tax a business owner has to pay...

Employers PAYE
His own income Tax
Corporation tax on profits
CGT on the dividends he pays out
VAT on everything he buys for his own personal consumption
Anything he saves, he pays DIRT or CGT on his earnings
He dies and his family are hit with a 25% inheritance tax.

Who would want to set up a company these days!

This isn't a dig at Ireland, it's a dig at all hungry governments around the world.

barneystinson

turbobaby wrote: »

What about the tax a business owner has to pay...

Employers PAYE
His own income Tax
Corporation tax on profits
CGT on the dividends he pays out
VAT on everything he buys for his own personal consumption
Anything he saves, he pays DIRT or CGT on his earnings
He dies and his family are hit with a 25% inheritance tax.

Who would want to set up a company these days!

This isn't a dig at Ireland, it's a dig at all hungry governments around the world.

Civilisation has high running costs!

Senna

Gurgle wrote: »

You pay VAT on the purchase of the car.
You pay VRT to register it, allowing it to be used on public roads.
You pay road tax for each year you use it.

I'm not saying its right or wrong (in principle I have no problem with it, in practice its an extortionate amount) but its not double taxation.

AFAIK, you pay VRT on the OMSP (open market selling price) which of course includes VAT, so that is "double taxation" in a literal sense.

creedp

turbobaby wrote: »

What about the tax a business owner has to pay...

Employers PAYE - set off against Corporation Tax
His own income Tax - ditto employee
Corporation tax on profits - N/A employee
CGT on the dividends he pays out - employee is liable to income tax on dividend received
VAT on everything he buys for his own personal consumption - ditto employee
Anything he saves, he pays DIRT or CGT on his earnings - ditto employee
He dies and his family are hit with a 25% inheritance tax. - ditto employee

Who would want to set up a company/be an employee these days!

This isn't a dig at Ireland, it's a dig at all hungry governments around the world.

Just bringing a bit of balance to the argument ...

turbobaby

All true and just shows how much money they take from us.

I'm not a business owner, and wasn't trying to say business owners pay more. Just showing where gov't have their grubby hands!

stackerman

turbobaby wrote: »

What about the tax a business owner has to pay...

Employers PAYE
His own income Tax
Corporation tax on profits
CGT on the dividends he pays out
VAT on everything he buys for his own personal consumption
Anything he saves, he pays DIRT or CGT on his earnings
He dies and his family are hit with a 25% inheritance tax.

Who would want to set up a company these days!

This isn't a dig at Ireland, it's a dig at all hungry governments around the world.

And don't forget the exorbitant rates :mad: