Definition of a City

Sully

The question (or conspiracy) came up in the Waterford Forum recently that by the merging of councils, Waterford and Limerick would lose their City title. While the Minister has stated Waterford wont, it does leave the question: What exactly defines a City? Will the merger change? Correct me on anything if I am wrong here but..

Some say a City is what is stated in the Local Government Act which states throughout that Waterford is one such (including Limerick, Cork, Dublin and Galway) city. The Act also seems to state that a City must have a City Council and a County must have a County Council.

While the Kilkenny issue rises its head, it appears from my understanding that its legally entitled to be described as such as its charter is inherited "without prejudice" as it came in before the Act. So while the Act doesn't directly define it, its confirmed as such elsewhere in the act. Bit awkward, I am not sure why they just didn't rubberstamp it directly without the third party confirmation.

I assume this Act will need revising accordingly with the mergers?

coylemj

A city in Ireland is effectively a large town which runs it's own affairs with no interference from a county council. That may be because it got a royal charter, or because it was created by statute which would have been the case with the old borough of Dun Laoghaire which technically was a city because the writ of the old Dublin co. co. didn't run south of Baker's Corner where the borough began.

A city is technically a 'county borough', this would cover Dublin, Galway, Limerick, Waterford etc.

Before it was split into three, Dublin county council was unique because it was the only co. co. whose head office was outside it's own territory, being located in O'Connell St. in Dublin City.

In the UK a city is a town big or small with a cathedral.

Morte

http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/acts/2001/a3701.pdf

p.24

(2) The State continues to stand divided into local government
areas to be known as counties and cities which are the areas set out
in Parts 1 and 2, respectively, of Schedule 5.

p.195

PART 2
Cities
Cork Limerick
Dublin Waterford
Galway

These are the 5 cities of the Republic of Ireland.

p.25

(7) This section is without prejudice to the continued use of the
description city in relation to Kilkenny, to the extent that that
description was used before the establishment day and is not otherwise
inconsistent with this Act.

Kilkenny is not a city but can continue to use the term for marketing/tourism purposes. You'll note the signs on the way in say "medieval city" getting around the fact it is not a city in modern times. Same idea as Cork referring to itself as the "Real Capital." A bit of fun but should never be considered for any serious purpose.

I'm not aware of the government clarifying how the Limerick and Waterford mergers will work in practice.

coylemj

Morte, can I suggest that you use www.irishstatutebook.ie when quoting legislation - that way people can read individual sections instead of having to download the entire act in a PDF file.

S.10 Local Government Areas...

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/act/pub/0037/sec0010.html#sec10

Schedule 5 Local Government Areas (Counties and Cities)

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2001/en/act/pub/0037/sched5.html#sched5

Victor

coylemj wrote: »

A city is technically a 'county borough', this would cover Dublin, Galway, Limerick, Waterford etc.

I understand that county boroughs have been abolished.

Before it was split into three, Dublin county council was unique because it was the only co. co. whose head office was outside it's own territory, being located in O'Connell St. in Dublin City.

Oh really? http://maps.google.ie/maps?q=cork&hl=en&ll=51.893093,-8.507787&spn=0.00674,0.021136&sll=53.3834,-8.21775&sspn=6.672855,21.643066&hnear=Cork,+County+Cork&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=51.893093,-8.507787&panoid=TmI6PiP2wRNdowPs7nZ2FQ&cbp=12,240.58,,0,-16.81

In the UK a city is a town big or small with a cathedral.

Oh really? Nothing to do with royal charters then?

Carawaystick

coylemj wrote: »

In the UK a city is a town big or small with a cathedral.

Did the Cathedrals in Newry and Lisburn just get completed when Elisabeth made them cities then?

Is Oban a city? it has 2 cathedrals
Do Orthodox cathedrals count for city purposes????

coylemj

Victor wrote: »

I understand that county boroughs have been abolished.

They seem to have been renamed cities in the 2001 act right enough, not sure if it had practical effect where the boundaries were left unchanged.

Victor wrote: »

Oh really? http://maps.google.ie/maps?q=cork&hl=en&ll=51.893093,-8.507787&spn=0.00674,0.021136&sll=53.3834,-8.21775&sspn=6.672855,21.643066&hnear=Cork,+County+Cork&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=51.893093,-8.507787&panoid=TmI6PiP2wRNdowPs7nZ2FQ&cbp=12,240.58,,0,-16.81

Doesn't the Cork city boundary end at Victoria Cross? I thought the co. co. built the county hall there to avoid paying rates to the city corporation.

Victor wrote: »

Oh really? Nothing to do with royal charters then?

The charter came second. First the Pope created a diocese and named a specific town as the seat of the bishop, the royal charter then followed soon after making it a city.

Since the late 19th century the link (between having a cathedral and being designated a city) no longer exists. The larger cities in GB are now metropolitan boroughs e.g. Merseyside, Tyneside etc. London is probably unique in that two cities (Westminster and the city of London) are next door to each other.

Carawaystick

coylemj wrote: »

The charter came second. First the Pope created On d 5:30 bus diocese and named a specific town as the seat of the bishop, the royal charter then followed soon after making it a city.

Since the late 19th century the link (between having a cathedral and being designated a city) no longer exists. The larger cities in GB are now metropolitan boroughs e.g. Merseyside, Tyneside etc. London is probably unique in that two cities (Westminster and the city of London) are next door to each other.

Still doesn't explain Tuam, 2 cathedrals before the middle of the 19th century, not a city

Sully

We appear to still have borough councils?

Our man in Havana

Kilkenny still has signs erected by the NRA pointing to the city centre. And these signs are all post 2001.

coylemj

Carawaystick wrote: »

Still doesn't explain Tuam, 2 cathedrals before the middle of the 19th century, not a city

I should have said GB in my original post, it never applied to Ireland as far as I know.

The historic designation of 'city' was essentially an honorific act since it really didn't have any practical effect apart from the councillors wearing fancy robes and the council chairman being entitled to call himself 'Lord Mayor'. It's still jealously guarded by tiny cities in GB such as Wells and Winchester even though I would guess than in terms of UK local government administration they are treated the same as any small town.

Our man in Havana

The smallest city in the UK. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Davids

charlemont

Under EU regulations a city is any urban area over 50,000, Here we just have the 5 City Councils which obviously give us 5 cities. Kilkenny is actually a Borough Council which has permission unlike Cashel* to use the title city.


These quotes about cathedrals shouldn't really mean much in law in either Ireland or Britain, maybe historically yes but not anymore.


*Some signs say city but its got a Town Council.

Our systems of organising cities/towns/countirs hasn't changed much since 1888 bar the LGA 2001, Basically just changing names from corporation to council, municipal borough to just borough.

charlemont

coylemj wrote: »

They seem to have been renamed cities in the 2001 act right enough, not sure if it had practical effect where the boundaries were left unchanged.



Doesn't the Cork city boundary end at Victoria Cross? I thought the co. co. built the county hall there to avoid paying rates to the city corporation.


The charter came second. First the Pope created a diocese and named a specific town as the seat of the bishop, the royal charter then followed soon after making it a city.

Since the late 19th century the link (between having a cathedral and being designated a city) no longer exists. The larger cities in GB are now metropolitan boroughs e.g. Merseyside, Tyneside etc. London is probably unique in that two cities (Westminster and the city of London) are next door to each other.

Cork's City boundary is fairly bad, Similar to Dublin's in which its suberbs are in the hands of its adjoining County Council's. Only Waterford and Galway have City boundaries that includes its adjoining suburbs.

Sully

Our man in Havana wrote: »

Kilkenny still has signs erected by the NRA pointing to the city centre. And these signs are all post 2001.

They are allowed call and describe it as a city.

Milk & Honey

charlemont wrote: »

Cork's City boundary is fairly bad, Similar to Dublin's in which its suberbs are in the hands of its adjoining County Council's. Only Waterford and Galway have City boundaries that includes its adjoining suburbs.

Some of Waterford's suburbs are in Kilkenny!

charlemont

Milk & Honey wrote: »

Some of Waterford's suburbs are in Kilkenny!

Yes, Ferrybank but its it in Kilkenny county, But Waterfords boundary is very generous on the Waterford county side. Kilkenny itself is very peculiar in that its Borough Council only contains around 8,800 people, The other 15,000 or so are actually under the authority of KKC.

GerardKeating

coylemj wrote: »

Before it was split into three, Dublin county council was unique because it was the only co. co. whose head office was outside it's own territory, being located in O'Connell St. in Dublin City..

Not unique, Galway County Hall is in Galway City.

hognef

coylemj wrote: »

London is probably unique in that two cities (Westminster and the city of London) are next door to each other.

That same situation exists in Greater Manchester (Salford being located next door to Manchester).

Victor

coylemj wrote: »

Doesn't the Cork city boundary end at Victoria Cross? I thought the co. co. built the county hall there to avoid paying rates to the city corporation.

No. Unless you are a crow, County Hall is 1.5km from the city boundary.

http://maps.google.ie/maps?q=Cork+County+Hall,+Cork&hl=en&ll=51.892722,-8.507216&spn=0.00337,0.010568&sll=53.3834,-8.21775&sspn=6.672855,21.643066&oq=cork+county+&t=h&hq=Cork+County+Hall,&hnear=Cork,+County+Cork&z=17&layer=c&cbll=51.893123,-8.508134&panoid=YzT1Rp4simqnpWKUvwXmYg&cbp=12,220.44,,0,-16.04

The charter came second. First the Pope created a diocese and named a specific town as the seat of the bishop, the royal charter then followed soon after making it a city.

So, it was down to royal charters, not the cathedral?

The larger cities in GB are now metropolitan boroughs

Not all of them. Local government in Britain is more complicated than that.

The hole you are in is this deep.



Stop digging

Victor

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Davids#City_status

In the 16th century, a town was recognised as a city by the English Crown if it had a diocesan cathedral within its limits, but this link was abolished in 1888.[6] In 1991 St Davids town council proposed that a case for city status should be promoted in respect of the Queen's fortieth anniversary on the throne, and in 1992 the Home Office agreed to refer the matter to Buckingham Palace. In 1994, at the request of the Queen, St Davids was again granted city status along with the Irish town of Armagh, "In recognition of their important Christian heritage and their status as cities in the last century".[6] The letters patent conferring city status, which the residents had long considered it to have anyway, were officially presented by the Queen in a ceremony at St Davids Cathedral on 1 June 1995.[7]

Sully wrote: »

We appear to still have borough councils?

Yes, as an intermediate-sized settlement between town and city.

Our man in Havana wrote: »

Kilkenny still has signs erected by the NRA pointing to the city centre. And these signs are all post 2001.

Such signs don't change it's legal status. The NRA probably had very little input into the signs.

charlemont wrote: »

Under EU regulations a city is any urban area over 50,000,

What are these regulations? The EU has little or no role is local government.

I strongly suspect this is someone who has misread a statistical or similar document, which applied an arbitrary definition for the sake of convenience. Note that the words for "town" and "city" are the same in many languages.

Here we just have the 5 City Councils which obviously give us 5 cities. Kilkenny is actually a Borough Council which has permission unlike Cashel* to use the title city.

*Some signs say city but its got a Town Council.

Pics?

Our systems of organising cities/towns/countirs hasn't changed much since 1888 bar the LGA 2001, Basically just changing names from corporation to council, municipal borough to just borough.

At various points, rural districts and urban districts were abolished, in particular, Dublin City Council and Dublin County Council were given much more control of the previously pseudo-rotten boroughs. Dublin County Council was split because it was too big. In the 1920s, the creation of the post of city/county manager created a big shift in the power of the elected members. VECs and health boards were also separated.

charlemont

@VICTOR

Quote:
Originally Posted by charlemont
Under EU regulations a city is any urban area over 50,000,
What are these regulations? The EU has little or no role is local government.

I strongly suspect this is someone who has misread a statistical or similar document, which applied an arbitrary definition for the sake of convenience. Note that the words for "town" and "city" are the same in many languages.

Yes Its for statistical or grant purposes, I read it somewhere before, There was also comments recently about it on the Waterford City forum.

Quote:
Here we just have the 5 City Councils which obviously give us 5 cities. Kilkenny is actually a Borough Council which has permission unlike Cashel* to use the title city.

*Some signs say city but its got a Town Council.
Pics?

As a regular visitor over the years to Cashel I can tell you they had a few signs saying City Centre and several blue (none NRA) welcoming people to the City of Kings, Now I can't recall seeing any City Centre signs recently as since the M8 opened they changed the signposting through it to R639 regional signs and they refer to Town Centre only.

Cashel has a Town Council BTW.

Carawaystick

I was being facetious to coylemj earlier, but I reckon the reference to the english crown in 1600's upthread would exclude Scotland from GB, as it only joined the uk at the start of the 18th century.


I think a city is kind of like good art -- you'll know one when you see one.

Anyway the city status isn't a problem unique to these parts, the status of Llivia is unusual due to the designation of it as a city back in the day.
it has a pop of about 1500, but was a city and stayed in Spain