Training Plans

average_runner

As alot of people try different training plans for marathons. 10k, half etc, I was wondering which plans do people find the best. This obviously down to each individual.

I love reading and hearing about different plans.

Krusty_Clown

Beginners and those new to running: the Hal Higdon plans provide a great starting point, as they are free, structured, progress gradually, cover training needs for every day and they are free! Most people new to running are wary about spending money on the sport (until they reach a certain point of addiction!), so having something available (for free!) is invaluable. Even if the plans may not be optimal, they're free!

Intermediate - advanced 10k, I would have to say McMillan's best 10k workouts would be right up there. It focuses only on the key workouts, so you have to fill in the gaps yourself, but it takes you to a point (over the course of 8 weeks) where you are almost running the entire 10k at goal pace, with breaks. It's very tough (particularly if your goal is optimistic) but if you can make it to the end, there's a very good chance you will hit your goal.

Intermediate Marathoners: Pfitzinger & Douglas' advanced marathoning. Different schedules based on the time you have available (or duration you wish to commit) and different peak mileage.. It's a tough inflexible schedule that lists your daily workouts and target paces. Of great value for someone who has run their first marathon in a largely unstructured manner and needs the discipline of someone telling them what to do every day. It's a tough schedule (particularly the higher mileage plans) with a lot of 5k based running. The book is also an invaluable reference on the general subject and science of marathon running.

Advanced Marathoners/other distances: Daniels' Running Formula
I'm not really qualified to comment on this one, as I have not completed a full training plan, but am currently following bits of Plan A and have done a few sessions from the Elite plan. A more flexible approach to marathon training plans, as the key sessions are outlined, and it is up to the runner to make up the rest of the weekly mileage at easy pace. I wouldn't really recommend either Plan A or the Elite plan for anyone who has recently started running, as the sessions are very tough. The elite plan is aimed at those who have been running 90+ miles per week. There is however a marathon plan for those whose goal is just to complete the marathon. Again, the book is an invaluable resource on the general subject of running, but also contains plans and advice for those tackling a large range of distances.

Switching Plans:
I have followed several of the P&D plans over the last few years, so switching to Daniels has been quite refreshing. Less emphasis on 5k pace, more emphasis on tempo pace (approximately 10mile-1/2 marathon pace). For the workouts I have done (and the general increase in mileage) I have seen solid improvements at both 10k and half marathon distances, and hopefully will see similar benefits in the marathon. I'm not saying that Daniels is better than P&D, but rather that switching plans/styles can yield significant benefits as I reckon you can suffer plan-malaise/stagnancy from following the same style of plan repeatedly. Sometimes you just need to switch it around (including changing distances) to keep the motivation levels charged-up.

Tune-up races:
The other area of huge benefit is tune-up races. I have found them massively beneficial, if only to make work-outs conceptually easier to visualize/complete. A year ago, doing workouts at 5:xx/mile would have scared the bejaysus out of me, but when you can think to yourself that you've just completed a 10k (at a significantly faster place), it makes the workouts numbers easier to stomach. For example, if you complete a half marathon (13 back to back miles @5:53/mile) then running 4 x 2 mile @5:50/mile (with 2 minutes break) has got to be a hell of a lot easier. No more pre-workout nerves/pessimism.

RayCun

I get the impression that the Daniels plans contain more different paces in a single run? P&D have interval sessions, and PMP sessions, but are usually a combination of easy pace and one other pace, while the Daniels runs might have easy pace + PMP + HMP in a single run?

pconn062

Daniel's 5-15k plan (which I think is in the Running Formula book as well) is meant to be the business for those distances.

average_runner

I have the daniels book but found the plans hard to understand, but saying that i might look at its 5-15k next year as my training with the club will be limited with baby no2 at xmas. So have to work on my own!!


I am currently doing the P&D 12 week 55 mile plan, find it ok at the moment. i love the tempo part of it.


Might have questions next year for ye on the daniels plan, need to study the 5k -15k in more detail

One question about the P&D program.

If it says 10miles with 4x1000, does that mean 10 miles and then 4x1000 or all inclusive?

Krusty_Clown

average_runner wrote: »

If it says 10miles with 4x1000, does that mean 10 miles and then 4x1000 or all inclusive?

That's all inclusive. So it would typically be:
2.5 mile warm-up
4 x 1,000m
with 50%-90% of interval time - easy jog
Warm-down to bring total to 10 miles.
I usually found that I'd have around 1.5 - 2 miles of warm-down.

Krusty_Clown

RayCun wrote: »

I get the impression that the Daniels plans contain more different paces in a single run? P&D have interval sessions, and PMP sessions, but are usually a combination of easy pace and one other pace, while the Daniels runs might have easy pace + PMP + HMP in a single run?

P&D typically consists of:
Recovery runs
Aerobic Runs (easy runs with or without strides)
Medium & Long Runs (easy pace)
Long runs @PMP (20-30% easy, 70-80% PMP)
Lactate Threshold (Tempo runs @ 15k - 1/2 Marathon pace)
Vo2max Intervals at 5k pace


Daniels (marathon plans):
5 days per week: Easy runs
Workouts:
Combination of Easy & PMP & Tempo
Combination of Easy & Tempo
Combination of Easy & Intervals @ I pace & Reps @ R pace (Plan Elite)
Long Easy runs
Long PMP runs (Plan A)

That's a pretty rough approximation. Plan A and the Elite Plan are very different and are aimed at very different kinds of runners. I'd like to give the elite plan a pop for London 2013, but I don't know if I'm hard enough!

RayCun

So in the Daniels plan all your hard running is done as part of that single long run, everything else is easy?

Krusty_Clown

RayCun wrote: »

So in the Daniels plan all your hard running is done as part of that single long run, everything else is easy?

Nope, there are two hard workouts per week (both plans). Most are long workouts (19-21 miles), but some (e.g. some from Plan A, and the I and R pace runs in the Elite Plan) are shorter (closer to 12 miles). But mostly they're long. The workouts are all so different, it's difficult to summarize. Probably best just to pick up the book.

average_runner

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

P&D typically consists of:
Recovery runs
Aerobic Runs (easy runs with or without strides)
Medium & Long Runs (easy pace)
Long runs @PMP (20-30% easy, 70-80% PMP)
Lactate Threshold (Tempo runs @ 15k - 1/2 Marathon pace)
Vo2max Intervals at 5k pace


Daniels (marathon plans):
5 days per week: Easy runs
Workouts:
Combination of Easy & PMP & Tempo
Combination of Easy & Tempo
Combination of Easy & Intervals @ I pace & Reps @ R pace (Plan Elite)
Long Easy runs
Long PMP runs (Plan A)

That's a pretty rough approximation. Plan A and the Elite Plan are very different and are aimed at very different kinds of runners. I'd like to give the elite plan a pop for London 2013, but I don't know if I'm hard enough!

Well if your not hard enough, then there is no hope!!

theboyblunder

Great post from KC above

Im in the opposite boat. Ive done Daniels twice and am now following P&D.

Everything KC said about Daniels is spot on IMO.

The weaknesses I would suggest are:

1. A lot of breaks in the run. Your midweek sessions are usually interval (or cruise interval) in nature, and there is even some of it in the long runs. You dont get these breaks in the race, so I found I got very good at concentrating for 1-3 miles, while looking forward to a rest I dont have in races.

In the long runs the breaks are a problem unless you are very disciplined, but its very hard after running 2 mile w/up, 4 miles at tempo with 1 min rest, then 8 miles easy, then 3 miles at tempo not to take a rest with the watch stopped before your easy sections etc.

2. Killer midweek sessions towards the end of the program which are hard to do after a days work. One which sticks in the mind is 5 mile easy, 3 miles tempo, 5 miles easy, 3 miles tempo, 2 mile c/d (18 miles in total). All on a wednesday night! I did these, but was wrecked afterwards

3. Peaking: I found that Daniels made me faster than ever over shorter distances, particularly 10 miles and the half. Serious improvement. However, both times I was running out of steam towards the end of the programme and in retrospect I peaked after about 10-12 weeks. Perhaps I hadnt got the aerobic base properly laid down first though, and this is a complaint of many who follow 18 week plans.


Im now doing P&D. Being used to Daniels, I am finding the opposite of KC, I like being just told what to do at the moment. It means getting up early or running late to fit around family stuff. Im not saying its better per se, but sometimes a change is as good as a rest and im interested to see how the longer break-free runs prepare me for the race.

Maybe after Dublin we could convert this thread into a general one on P&D vs Daniels and see what the consensus is....

average_runner

theboyblunder wrote: »

Great post from KC above

Im in the opposite boat. Ive done Daniels twice and am now following P&D.

Everything KC said about Daniels is spot on IMO.

The weaknesses I would suggest are:

1. A lot of breaks in the run. Your midweek sessions are usually interval (or cruise interval) in nature, and there is even some of it in the long runs. You dont get these breaks in the race, so I found I got very good at concentrating for 1-3 miles, while looking forward to a rest I dont have in races.

In the long runs the breaks are a problem unless you are very disciplined, but its very hard after running 2 mile w/up, 4 miles at tempo with 1 min rest, then 8 miles easy, then 3 miles at tempo not to take a rest with the watch stopped before your easy sections etc.

2. Killer midweek sessions towards the end of the program which are hard to do after a days work. One which sticks in the mind is 5 mile easy, 3 miles tempo, 5 miles easy, 3 miles tempo, 2 mile c/d (18 miles in total). All on a wednesday night! I did these, but was wrecked afterwards

3. Peaking: I found that Daniels made me faster than ever over shorter distances, particularly 10 miles and the half. Serious improvement. However, both times I was running out of steam towards the end of the programme and in retrospect I peaked after about 10-12 weeks. Perhaps I hadnt got the aerobic base properly laid down first though, and this is a complaint of many who follow 18 week plans.


Im now doing P&D. Being used to Daniels, I am finding the opposite of KC, I like being just told what to do at the moment. It means getting up early or running late to fit around family stuff. Im not saying its better per se, but sometimes a change is as good as a rest and im interested to see how the longer break-free runs prepare me for the race.

Maybe after Dublin we could convert this thread into a general one on P&D vs Daniels and see what the consensus is....

So you think Daniels is more suited to the 10k to half distance? Be interesting to see how KC finds it for London. No pressure KC.

This is what i love about these plans, what you learn from other people experiences. Thanks all.

theboyblunder

average_runner wrote: »

So you think Daniels is more suited to the 10k to half distance? Be interesting to see how KC finds it for London. No pressure KC.

This is what i love about these plans, what you learn from other people experiences. Thanks all.

I think Daniels marathon plan A made me faster over 10 mile and half marathon distances than it did over the marathon.

2010-2011: 10 mile: 1:01:05, marathon: 2:57:48
2011: 10 mile: 1:00:37, half: 1:21:03, marathon: dnf (not Daniels fault)

It could be just me though, or I might not have done enough mileage (maxed at 70 mpw). Wont know until ive done a few with other plans I reckon. Im doing the P&D 55-70 mpw at the moment so some kind of comparison might be possible later on....

baileatha

Hi folks, I am mid marathon training but finding the lsd runs difficult in the late teens early twenties - my whole body is badly hurting around mile 17/18 onwards - is this normal? Is there anything I can do to help overcome this as the thought of pushing on for another 6/7 miles (in the marathon) seems extremely difficult right now. Thanks in advance

ronnie085

baileatha wrote: »

Hi folks, I am mid marathon training but finding the lsd runs difficult in the late teens early twenties - my whole body is badly hurting around mile 17/18 onwards - is this normal? Is there anything I can do to help overcome this as the thought of pushing on for another 6/7 miles (in the marathon) seems extremely difficult right now. Thanks in advance

What sort of pace are you running at and whats your target time in the marathon? At that stage you shouldn't be fresh but the pace shouldn't be killing you either

sideswipe

baileatha wrote: »

Hi folks, I am mid marathon training but finding the lsd runs difficult in the late teens early twenties - my whole body is badly hurting around mile 17/18 onwards - is this normal? Is there anything I can do to help overcome this as the thought of pushing on for another 6/7 miles (in the marathon) seems extremely difficult right now. Thanks in advance

If your doing LSD I'm surprised you get to 17/18 miles;)

Krusty_Clown

baileatha wrote: »

Hi folks, I am mid marathon training but finding the lsd runs difficult in the late teens early twenties - my whole body is badly hurting around mile 17/18 onwards - is this normal? Is there anything I can do to help overcome this as the thought of pushing on for another 6/7 miles (in the marathon) seems extremely difficult right now. Thanks in advance

What plan are you following? As per previous question, at what pace are you running these runs? Best stick to the recreational drugs until after the race.

baileatha

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

What plan are you following? As per previous question, at what pace are you running these runs? Best stick to the recreational drugs until after the race.

I am running approx 41 miles per week with one rest day (Friday). Long slow run on Sat and 2 of the runs per week are at threshold pace. 2 days a week gym work also.

I am running 19 miles at an average 8.30/mile pace which drops off considerably from mile 17ish onwards. I do not use gels etc on long runs - could this be a cause or is it just the wrong pace for this distance? Thanks again.

Clearlier

baileatha wrote: »

I am running approx 41 miles per week with one rest day (Friday). Long slow run on Sat and 2 of the runs per week are at threshold pace. 2 days a week gym work also.

I am running 19 miles at an average 8.30/mile pace which drops off considerably from mile 17ish onwards. I do not use gels etc on long runs - could this be a cause or is it just the wrong pace for this distance? Thanks again.

You're doing 41mpw with 19 of those being a long run? Add in 2 threshold runs during the week, I'm guessing only one other run day plus 2 days at the gym?

Your training is not really geared towards running a marathon that I can see. Is there a formal plan that you're following?

Based on the above I'd change one of the threshold runs to a marathon paced run. I'd change the other threshold run to a medium long run and I'd slow down the long run to maybe 9mm. All of that will boost your endurance and be a lot more marathon specific. At the moment I think that your training is designed to leave you unprepared come marathon day.

A gel (or any form of carbohydrates) would probably help you complete your long runs but it wouldn't particularly help with your preparation for the marathon.

My guess based on the information given is that you badly need to focus on endurance. Fortunately there's (just) enough time to have an impact if you make the changes now. More miles, slower paces. The only time that you should go faster than marathon pace between now and the race (aside from a few strides a couple of times a week) is during a short race (10k) a few weeks before.

Krusty_Clown

baileatha wrote: »

I am running approx 41 miles per week with one rest day (Friday). Long slow run on Sat and 2 of the runs per week are at threshold pace. 2 days a week gym work also.

I am running 19 miles at an average 8.30/mile pace which drops off considerably from mile 17ish onwards. I do not use gels etc on long runs - could this be a cause or is it just the wrong pace for this distance? Thanks again.

What is your marathon goal? Have you run any races recently and what were the results? It sounds like you may be running your long runs at (or close to) your planned marathon pace, which would explain the drop off in pace towards the end of the run. As per Clearlier's comments, you should probably think about skipping the gym for a while and doing some more running.

baileatha

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

What is your marathon goal? Have you run any races recently and what were the results? It sounds like you may be running your long runs at (or close to) your planned marathon pace, which would explain the drop off in pace towards the end of the run. As per Clearlier's comments, you should probably think about skipping the gym for a while and doing some more running.

My marathon goal is anything under 4 hours and to finish obviously. Ran the half marathon at the weekend in 1.45 comfortably. Thanks for all the advice - looks like a I need to make some changes to my training starting with pace and more miles. .

baileatha

Clearlier wrote: »

You're doing 41mpw with 19 of those being a long run? Add in 2 threshold runs during the week, I'm guessing only one other run day plus 2 days at the gym?

Your training is not really geared towards running a marathon that I can see. Is there a formal plan that you're following?

Based on the above I'd change one of the threshold runs to a marathon paced run. I'd change the other threshold run to a medium long run and I'd slow down the long run to maybe 9mm. All of that will boost your endurance and be a lot more marathon specific. At the moment I think that your training is designed to leave you unprepared come marathon day.

A gel (or any form of carbohydrates) would probably help you complete your long runs but it wouldn't particularly help with your preparation for the marathon.

My guess based on the information given is that you badly need to focus on endurance. Fortunately there's (just) enough time to have an impact if you make the changes now. More miles, slower paces. The only time that you should go faster than marathon pace between now and the race (aside from a few strides a couple of times a week) is during a short race (10k) a few weeks before.

Thanks for this advice.