External Gas Bottle Supply For Oven&Hob

oB1

Hi All,

Really not sure if this would be the right place to ask this.

Basically, at home, we have an Oil-Fired Central heating system, BUT have always preferred cooking with Gas.

I was looking in to maybe installing a gas cooker & hob in the kitchen, and plumbing in a gas line, from outside, in the back yard; leading to a small gas cylinder (ones you can refill in small stores)

Although my background is in IT, I would consider myself a handy man, and would throw my hand to anything really, but, would i be out of my dept with this?

Has anyone actually done this before; is it heard of?

The cooker&Hob would be placed on the external wall, so wouldn't have that long to travel.

Cheers!

Rob

Ddad

Hi Rob. Yeah I did that. I went for an automatic switchover on the regulator and two bottles (large) rather than one. So I never run out. You will need to get an RGI to do the installation as otherwise you may be shagged if the DIY job causes a fire. Run a waste pipe in thought the wall and use that as the. Conduit and seal afterw ads with some foam.

aujopimur

The large x 2 bottles with an auto change over valve is the way to go.
If you use the small butane bottles you run the risk of the gas freezing in cold weather.
You could save yourself a few bob by keeping an eye open for a pair of bottles as ther're often disgarded in yards etc..

shane0007

I would install a gas hob but electric fan assisted oven.

As Ddad says, this work must be carried out by an RGI. The use of the correct pipework, materials, fittings and sleeving is critical to a safe installation.

As aujopimur also says, butane will freeze so therefore it must be stored indoors. If you are planning on storing outside, then you must use propane.

Ddad

The freezing issue was one of the reasons I went for propane. I'd also have a preference for gas but I also laid a cable to replace the gas hob in the future with van induction hob if I want to.

Billy Bunting

shane0007 wrote: »

As aujopimur also says, butane will freeze so therefore it must be stored indoors. If you are planning on storing outside, then you must use propane.

Have to disagree here, 99% of rural Ireland use Butane for supplying cooking appliances, very very few of those are stored indoors, infact i would advise against storing any gas indoors, on the few occasions when freezing canbe a problem then a simple solution is an old towel or blanket over the bottle and regulator.
A simple Butane bottle and regulator will cost 70 euro even if you need to buy a bottle, twin Propain bottles with changeover regulator will cost more like 350euro.

shane0007

At -0.5C, butane will remain as a liquid and not boil to gasify itself and therefore become useless. It can also have dangers with the regulator where the vent becomes inoperable and this is where the danger lies when people pour boiling water over it to get some gas.

Propane on the other hand can continue to perform down to -44C. A much better option for outdoor storage conditions. Just because 99% of Ireland uses the cheaper bottle and store it externally does not make it right. Economics should not be the factor for suitability.

I do agree that I would prefer to see gas bottles not stored indoors, however, I would prefer to see the correct gas for the correct installation.

Billy Bunting

shane0007 wrote: »

Just because 99% of Ireland uses the cheaper bottle and store it externally does not make it right. Economics should not be the factor for suitability.

Not really wanting to get into an argument on the issue, it's not a competition nor very professional.

I work according to IS813 and common sense, as we can expect from IS813, we have a "may not give satisfactory service below -0", common sense and being an RGI who works mainly with LPG tells me I very rarely have frost issues with Butane bottles or regulators, i look at location, usage, and the time the cylinder will last and the fact i need to price a job to get it.
Telling most customers who are installing a hob that they need to shell out hundreds on twin Propane when their neighbours use Butane normally gets raised eyebrows.

Ddad

I see where billy is coming from. My own reasoning was that a few of my friends lost gas supply during the last big freeze and they also (infrequently) ran out of gas from time to time because they didn't have a spare bottle. I've only changed a bottle once in eight months, even though I cook a lot. I'd have to agree that the cost is prohibitive but I'd always take the belt and braces approach myself, except on my trousers:D.

Another issue apart from cost is appearance. It's far easier to stash a small butane cylinder so that it isn't an eyesore. I still have to sort out a solution so that I'm not looking at two big ugly orange cylinders every time I arrive home. Might not bother some but it does bother me.

DGOBS

One factor I would always consider is that propane is a cleaner fuel that produces less toxins that propane, given that they are flueless appliances I would have to agree with propane as the gas of choice.

During the 2 severe winters past, I dod have a lot of issue with butane, but in saying that, it was so cold I found a lot a regulators began to have issues (diaphram freezing)

When having your gas installation installed, make sure the installer uses copper pipework from the appliance (with the exception of bayonets) to outdoors, and only uses a short length of flexible hose from a suitable connector to the bottle (regulator)

If you opt for a changeover valve like Shane suggests, the high pressure flexible hoses will be date stamped and require replacement ever 5 years minimum. But as only feeding a hob, a single bottle should be plenty.

slavetothegrind

one of the large bottles of propane does me for a year on a combined oven/hob cooker.

you can simply check the weight of the cylinder after 6 months and change a little early if you are worried, much cheaper than the changeover setup.

during the freeze the diaphragm in the regulator did stick regularly but a little warm water sorted that.

shane0007

Billy Bunting wrote: »

Not really wanting to get into an argument on the issue, it's not a competition nor very professional.

I work according to IS813 and common sense, as we can expect from IS813, we have a "may not give satisfactory service below -0", common sense and being an RGI who works mainly with LPG tells me I very rarely have frost issues with Butane bottles or regulators, i look at location, usage, and the time the cylinder will last and the fact i need to price a job to get it.
Telling most customers who are installing a hob that they need to shell out hundreds on twin Propane when their neighbours use Butane normally gets raised eyebrows.

But it usually WILL give an unsatisfactory service below 0C. If the storage cylinders were the same price, which gas would you then choose?

I would think of the cylinder cost as an investment, you purchase the cylinder at today's price and sell them in 10 years for 3 times the cost, lol!

All I am saying is that propane is the more suitable gas for external storage. By giving the customer the choice and an explanation, they can make an informed decision as to which they want, as did Ddad. You can still quote for the cheaper installation to be competitive and they will also have one up on their neighbours, but at least they will have been in a position to make an informed one.

Billy Bunting

shane0007 wrote: »

But it usually WILL give an unsatisfactory service below 0C.

You didn't write IS813 did you.

But it usually WILL give an unsatisfactory service below 0C. If the storage cylinders were the same price, which gas would you then choose?

I would think of the cylinder cost as an investment, you purchase the cylinder at today's price and sell them in 10 years for 3 times the cost, lol!

All I am saying is that propane is the more suitable gas for external storage. By giving the customer the choice and an explanation, they can make an informed decision as to which they want, as did Ddad. You can still quote for the cheaper installation to be competitive and they will also have one up on their neighbours, but at least they will have been in a position to make an informed one.

I totally agree that it is the more suitable gas for external storage but It really isn’t my experience that Butane will give an unsatisfactory service,(I personally use Butane) nor obviously is it to 90+% of the LPG users out there.
If Propane was comparative in price with Butane then yes for sure I would use Propane and I’m sure I could sell it to the customer but it’s not and although I do try to sell the benefit to the customer it is very very rarely taken up.
As for the bottle investment, unfortunately I have not found a local supplier who gives refunds readily, it’s a crock of **** to be charging for bottles in the first place. :cool:

shane0007

Unfortunately I cannot take credit for the wonderful IS813 that we stumble through, searching for answers that just don't exist in it. Instead we search here for industry best practices and experiences and secretly steal sections of the UK regs to make sense of what we have. I am struggling on a daily basis with IS820 which is 50 times worse than 813 but hey ho, it is what we got.

Billy Bunting

shane0007 wrote: »

I am struggling on a daily basis with IS820 which is 50 times worse than 813 but hey ho, it is what we got.

Had the hard copy for over a year now, yet on a recent inspection it was the first hard copy Mr Inspector had seen. :rolleyes: Should he not have one

oB1

Hi All,

Thanks for the VERY informative information above, it seems that its alot more popular than i thought.

An Automatic Switch Over, for the regulator sounds like the best way to go, thanks Ddad for that.

Gas, really is a new territory for me - i did know that there was different types of LPG's ... but as to where they differ, is all new to me.

From what i can make out of what you all said above, Butane is cheaper, but, freezes in cold weather; Propane is more efficient, and can be stored outside in cold weather, but is more expensive, am i right?

Does Butane only come on small bottles, and propane in larger ones? - What is the type of Gas we would use on the BBQ?.. the one that i have for that at the moment, is grey in color, id consider it to be medium in size, and has a half-circle type cover/handle on top.

Is that what id be looking for?

Cheers

DGOBS

Regarding to choice of cylinder, fuel type, size, pipe work, appliance conversion etc would all be guided by your installer.

Let's be clear, for you to do this work yourself would not only be illegal, but very dangerous, with sometimes fatal consequences.

It's fine that we will discuss the options on fuels etc with you, but guidance on installation is completely another matter.

DGOBS

Regarding to choice of cylinder, fuel type, size, pipe work, appliance conversion etc would all be guided by your installer.

Let's be clear, for you to do this work yourself would not only be illegal, but very dangerous, with sometimes fatal consequences.

It's fine that we will discuss the options on fuels etc with you, but guidance on installation is completely another matter.

oB1

DGOBS wrote: »

Regarding to choice of cylinder, fuel type, size, pipe work, appliance conversion etc would all be guided by your installer.

Let's be clear, for you to do this work yourself would not only be illegal, but very dangerous, with sometimes fatal consequences.

It's fine that we will discuss the options on fuels etc with you, but guidance on installation is completely another matter.

I Agree, i should have clarified, that yes, i will be asking a RGI certified installer to actually carry out the work for me.

Before i start ringing around, i wanted to get educated opinions/advice and with that i may carry out some of the prep work myself, and buy in some of the materials.

pmac086

RobertHopkins wrote: »

I Agree, i should have clarified, that yes, i will be asking a RGI certified installer to actually carry out the work for me.

Before i start ringing around, i wanted to get educated opinions/advice and with that i may carry out some of the prep work myself, and buy in some of the materials.

Yep, that is a fair question, but the RGI rascals out there will hold all the info for the usual reasons.!!:(
Expert is doing a promotion at the moment, No rental charge on bottels, 100 Euro towards installation, plus free gas "when you purchase a cooker) :P

whizbang

At -0.5C, butane will remain as a liquid and not boil to gasify itself and therefore become useless.

this is at normal atmospheric pressure, and not inside a high pressure cylinder.

shane0007

whizbang wrote: »

this is at normal atmospheric pressure, and not inside a high pressure cylinder.

So at what temperature will it freeze at under it's stored bottle pressure of 6 - 7 bar, pray tell?

whizbang

Oh crap, Its years since i knew anything about this stuff...!
- that's what i get for being picky :rolleyes:

The available gas supply is related to vapour pressure, phase change, heat of vaporisation, evaporation, and some other stuff.

Boiling point is irrelevant, even at 30degC, you can still hear the liquid sloshing about in the cylinder. - so its not boiling!

Heat of vaporisation means if you cover a cylinder with a blanket, it gets colder with use. So you really need to warm the clyinder somehow.

Ok. I'll go hide now.

shane0007

So at what temperature under 6 - 7 bar cylinder pressure will it not vapourize from a liquid to a gas?

shane0007

whizbang wrote: »

Boiling point is irrelevant, even at 30degC, you can still hear the liquid sloshing about in the cylinder. - so its not boiling!

You would not generally hear the liquid gas boiling. If the bottle was see through you would see it boiling or rather bubbling as it is converting from a liquid to a gas. This is what is termed as its boiling point. At under 0C, butane gas finds it very difficult to "boil" & convert to OV (off-take vapour). Propane on the other hand can go down to circa -42C before becoming an issue.
This is why butane is known as a "leisure gas" & propane is known as a "commercial gas". Butane being really only suitable for use outdoors in summer months.

whizbang

I take your point. At less than the official boiling point, all substances have less energy to convert from liquid to gas (OV is a new one to me)

My point being there's other forces at work making the gas available to extract from the cylinder.
It is related to the pressure in the cylinder and the extraction rate also.
A full cylinder will work better than an almost empty one.


Anyway, regarding Butane, if its really cold, some warm water on the cylinder will get most people out of trouble.
But don't insulate the cylinder, that way there's a chance it can get some heat from somewhere.

shane0007

whizbang wrote: »

I take your point. At less than the official boiling point, all substances have less energy to convert from liquid to gas (OV is a new one to me)

My point being there's other forces at work making the gas available to extract from the cylinder.
It is related to the pressure in the cylinder and the extraction rate also.
A full cylinder will work better than an almost empty one.


Anyway, regarding Butane, if its really cold, some warm water on the cylinder will get most people out of trouble.
But don't insulate the cylinder, that way there's a chance it can get some heat from somewhere.

Of course other factors affect the boiling point, but I am often accused of being too technical & then when I keep it simple, I am open to having to get technical! I can't win.... Lol

Covering an LPG bottle is just stupid & dangerous as it will trap vented gases if required by the regulator. I would never recommend pouring warm water over a bottle either. What if the regulator was frozen & then was suddenly released when it was about to give way under pressure?

As I said originally butane is a leisure gas & propane is a commercial gas (as in for commercially available for use in the mass market) & therefore the correct gas should be used appropriately.
34kg Propane is €90
13kg butane is €34
No economical benefit for using butane.

Even Hank Hill says that Butane is a bast**d gas!!!
YouTube him along with propane gas!!!

DGOBS

Just add a bit of fuel to your (gas) fire....

Not only do they have different boiling points, but also different storage and vapor pressures....

Butane Cylinder 1.5-2 bar
Propane Cylinder 6-7

another added advantage is propane burns cleaner than butane does.

kanji

Just to give my 2c on this.

All the clip on butane regulators vents are on the top of the reg.( they vent around the shaft of the on/off switch)
This means that rain etc get into the reg causing most of the freezing issues you're talking about.
A butane installation should have a small cover/roof to prevent rain entering the reg

paddythefarmer

quiery as regards correct procedure for hooking up gas to free stand
ding cooker via yellow butane bottle of gas is it correct to say use 10 mm gas pipe true wall sleeved seal sleeve in inside outside not sealed if leak on line vents to outside 10 mm valve to right or left of cooker 10 to 15 mm straight 15 mm up to 15 mm back plate screwed to wall at back of cooker and bayonet screwed into back plate up to gas cooker sounds like a lot of work but reading isa 813 states must use bayanate at back of cooker and valve to side of cooker for isolation am i reading right

shane0007

It's hard to follow your text, but are you an RGI?
Basically what you have is correct except the pipe sizing & a lot more attention to detail is require on joints, tails, etc.
10mm will only carry a certain amount of gas & many cookers have far greater gas inputs than you think. This must be calculated properly accounting for bends, elbows, tees, etc. Pipe protection must also be considered.