34 years old - Deck Officer - Would it be madness?

kraggy

Hi,

I'm 34 years old and have been thinking continuously for the last while now about pursing a career in the merchant navy as a deck officer. I'm a teacher at present but wouldn't be leaving a permanent job in order to follow up on this.

I should add, that in a previous job that I studied navigation, comms and meterology and so it is because of these areas that I think I would like the job as deck officer.

So, given that I could get back into my area of teaching if things didn't work out, do you think I would be mad to do it?

Also, I have some other questions:

1. Is there any difference between the qualifications that you get after doing the degree on your own, or getting sponsored for the 3 years with a company?

2. What does the job involve exactly for a. 3rd Mate, b. 2nd Mate? i.e. what are typical duties in a 4 hour shift?

3. How much of the time on watch is actually navigating or is a lot of it autopilot so to speak?

4. What else is involved in the jobs of 3rd and 2nd Mates?

5. Is work still easily got?

6. Any other important information relating to life at sea that you wish you knew before going to sea all those years ago!

Any info would be great, even if you're not in the jobs above, but know the jobs and what they entail.

Thanks.

Tabnabs

kraggy wrote: »

So, given that I could get back into my area of teaching if things didn't work out, do you think I would be mad to do it?

Just in case you haven't thought too deeply about it, you're 34 now, would be 35 when you started college and would be 38/39 when you got your class three ticket. You be starting at the bottom of a career ladder knocking on 40 and that's not something to treat lightly. If you are really determined, then yes, but go a read up as much as possible from blogs etc. on the life of a deck officer.

Bligh

Hi Kraggy

Are you MAD?? yes probably; but you have to be a bit mad to work at sea in the first place.:D

What sort of ship would you like to work on? there is plenty of interesting work out there to chose from if you want to go down that route. Cruise ships, tankers, containers, bulk, offshore supply, survey ships etc. So research what you would like to achieve.

1. Is there any difference between the qualifications that you get after doing the degree on your own, or getting sponsored for the 3 years with a company?

I am not sure about this, but again ask the guys in the NMCI in Cork have a chat with them, call down to see them find out whats involved.

2. What does the job involve exactly for a. 3rd Mate, b. 2nd Mate? i.e. what are typical duties in a 4 hour shift?

Yes most ships work 4 on 8 off but some also work 6 on 6 off just depends on the ship, work etc. Typical duties might include, Keeping a watch, (looking out the window a skill sadly lacking in some watch officers), plotting the vessels position, monitoring the passage plan. Off watch duties may include chart corrections, safety checks on the vessels equipment etc

3. How much of the time on watch is actually navigating or is a lot of it autopilot so to speak?

yeah sit back feet up watch a DVD on your laptop autopilot is fine...you will learn this as you go

5. Is work still easily got?

At one time a lot of Irish Cadets were getting jobs direct out of college not sure what the situation is with this now, but am sure the guys in Cork at NMIC again would be able to answer you questions.

As Tabnabs said it's a long road for starting so late, but I would say go for it, you only live once and if it's something you want do, go and enjoy your time at sea, the life style suits some people but not all as it can mean being away from home for long periods of time.

goldie fish

Having embarked on a cadetship many moons ago, which was interrupted for another short lived career choice, I too considered, at 27, going back to sea. While the folks at NMCI were encouraging, they did say that most companies are reluctant to take older cadets. It isn't an easy thing for an independant thirty something to embark on.
The only option open would be if you were already employed as a deck hand, and they were willing to send you off for a Class 4, near conti ticket. That's what most elder lemons end up going for. But most of them have also worked as deck hands since they left school at 14...

LiamoSail

kraggy wrote: »

Hi,

I'm 34 years old and have been thinking continuously for the last while now about pursing a career in the merchant navy as a deck officer. I'm a teacher at present but wouldn't be leaving a permanent job in order to follow up on this.

I should add, that in a previous job that I studied navigation, comms and meterology and so it is because of these areas that I think I would like the job as deck officer.

So, given that I could get back into my area of teaching if things didn't work out, do you think I would be mad to do it?

Also, I have some other questions:

1. Is there any difference between the qualifications that you get after doing the degree on your own, or getting sponsored for the 3 years with a company?

2. What does the job involve exactly for a. 3rd Mate, b. 2nd Mate? i.e. what are typical duties in a 4 hour shift?

3. How much of the time on watch is actually navigating or is a lot of it autopilot so to speak?

4. What else is involved in the jobs of 3rd and 2nd Mates?

5. Is work still easily got?

6. Any other important information relating to life at sea that you wish you knew before going to sea all those years ago!

Any info would be great, even if you're not in the jobs above, but know the jobs and what they entail.

To answer your questions in sequence;

1. Either way, you have to do the same amount of sea time. If you're sponsored you get decent enough money, if you're not, you don't. Without sponsorship, you get placed on ships and as you can imagine, the companies not willing to pay cadets are generally less interested in training you properly.

As a point of note, you do get an ordinary degree, but the primary qualification is your cert of competency, issued by the drpt of transport. It's this that allows you to sail as third or second officer. The degree is meaningless in this regard

2. On watch, you're responsible for the safe navigation of the ship, and safety of those onboard. Essentially you're driving for four hours. This involves monitoring traffic and any hazards to navigation visually and by radar, taking avoiding action when required, ensuring the ship follows the charted course, and generally bring aware of all work going on onboard which affects the safety of the ship and crew. Similarly, you're monitoring any external circumstances which may effect the shop and taking action as required

Depending on where you are, you could be dead busy or dead bored. In a busy area, collision avoidance and monitoring the ships position requires a lot of concentration and planning, while if you're crossing the Atlantic or pacific, it's generally quite boring

3. You're always navigating, regardless of whether the autopilot is engaged. Again, the proximity to navigational hazards and traffic density will dictate how often you're fixing the position, altering course or how far off course you can go. As an example, going through somewhere like Singapore, you'll fix the position on the chart every 6 mins or so. Crossing the pacific you'll do it every 6 hours or so

4. The 2/o looks after passage planning and chart/publication corrections etc. The 3/o generally stuff like lifeboats, life buoys, gmdss, fire fighting equipment etc

5. Yea. If you don't get sponsorship though, you may have to do a trip or two with a poorly paying company to get the experience, but once you have that it's generally easy enough to find a decent job

6. I was fairly well informed as a lot of my family are at sea, but just make sure your aware of how long it takes to get your masters ticket. Thinking long term, if you want to move ashore its quiet important

Given your age, you'll have to be prepared for the fact that as cadet, you'll be taking orders from lads in their early to mid twenties. In my last two trips though, I've sailed with 3/o's who were early to mid thirties, so while you will be older then most when you qualify, it's not always a massive gulf. The higher up you go, the less it matters. I've sailed with chief officers from 30 to 50yrs of age, but as a 3/o, you will be about 15yrs older then most in your rank

Personally, while I moan about being at sea, it is a great career and quiet well paid. You do have to be prepared for the long trips though and it does make your home life difficult. I'm on a ship at the moment, I've done a few trips on here and hense spent more time over the last year with some of the lads on here then I have with my own girlfriend or family. You miss Christmases, birthdays, weddings etc and it's just something you have to be prepared for.

But as I said, while most seafarers will moan about it, I certainly think I made the right decision going to sea and theres not many jobs in which you have same level of responsibility, gain the same experience or get the same money as at sea

Do bare in mind though that it's a job on a working ship, as oppose to an adventure or chance to see the world. You do see places , but those going to sea thinking its an opportunity to travel the world as oppose to a career generally don't last long

If you've any other questions or want any more info feel free to pm me and I'll help you with what I can

LiamoSail

Bligh wrote: »

]yeah sit back feet up watch a DVD on your laptop autopilot is fine...you will learn this as you go

[.

Do you actually do that? Surprised you get away with it. You wouldn't see that sort of thing in most companies, certainly those employing western European officers

Tabnabs

LiamoSail wrote: »

Do you actually do that? Surprised you get away with it. You wouldn't see that sort of thing in most companies, certainly those employing western European officers

Hopefully he's joking, I certainly wouldn't be happy in my bunk knowing the OOW is stuck in front of his laptop. The old man would be even less happy to hear about it...

Tabnabs

Just to also say that the 4/8 off daily roster is not always applicable. If you work short-sea or offshore, it's 6 on/6 off. But on top of this, there may also be cargo operations or mooring to attend to and this can mean very long days. In port, if you want to relax ashore, this has to be done in your rest period and it's not unusual for deep sea crews to burn the candle at both ends to get the best out of shore leave for the couple of days (or hours) they are alongside and live off very little sleep.

Also, outside of your bridge watch, you will have to maintain equipment and carry out other duties (assisting 2/O and 1/O). You may be at sea for weeks or months (I once did a 5 month trip with no shore leave) and you will not be getting weekends off etc. Some ships are dry (i.e. no alcohol) and others, the officers drink too much and alcohol becomes a problem. The weather can be horrendous and that disrupts everything; sleeping, showering, eating etc. But you still gotta turn up for work and get the job done. It can be an incredibly tough job with long hours in dangerous conditions and a long way from home.

But people do it either because it's all they know (British cadets in particular are very young) or they simply love the sea.

LiamoSail

Tabnabs wrote: »

But people do it either because it's all they know (British cadets in particular are very young) or they simply love the sea.

To be fair, most stay at it for the money and the leave.

Completely agree about burning the candle at both end though. It's inevitable if you want to get ashore, and if your rest period coincides with arrival/departure or something like tank washing, you'll be doing well to get 4 hours sleep a day

murphym7

LiamoSail wrote: »

To be fair, most stay at it for the money and the leave.

Completely agree about burning the candle at both end though. It's inevitable if you want to get ashore, and if your rest period coincides with arrival/departure or something like tank washing, you'll be doing well to get 4 hours sleep a day

Had many a 24/36 hour day, usually after discharging and the next port being close, add a hangover to mix and you get the picture.

goldie fish

It must be unique to bulkers that during loading or unloading the watch officers are at their most busy, ensuring cargo is loaded trim and will not shift, making sure hold is clean, and ready for next cargo.

LiamoSail

goldie fish wrote: »

It must be unique to bulkers that during loading or unloading the watch officers are at their most busy, ensuring cargo is loaded trim and will not shift, making sure hold is clean, and ready for next cargo.

Tankers? The deck officers do the load and discharge as well as the ballasting, tank washing/cowing, surveys, calculations and looking after what ever inspectors decide to turn up in that particular port

Tabnabs

I'd agree with tankers, especially when loading. We used to lock ourselves in the control room when topping off the tanks to stop people wandering in and disturbing our concentration. A very nervous time, waiting for oil geysers to appear on deck

Bligh

LiamoSail wrote: »

Do you actually do that? Surprised you get away with it. You wouldn't see that sort of thing in most companies, certainly those employing western European officers

No, should have posted in the humour thread; on the serious side when in areas of high density traffic you have to really be on the ball, can be very busy and LimoSail is very correct. It's always best remembering that the safety of the ship and crew is depending on the decisions made by the OOW.

kraggy

Hey again,

Firstly, just wan to say thanks a million for the indepth replies. It's great to get so much information from the horses mouth.

So much in fact, that it's triggered more questions, if that's ok?

1. Is there any such thing as a typical pattern of duty? e.g. 3 months on/2 months off? Something like that?

2. Does the third officer just do watchkeeping and look after the safety equipment or might they also do the physcial jobs that seamen do such as painting, cleaning etc?

3. How long does it take to go from third to second officer? Are there courses to attend in order to so or is that only required when going for Chief Mate?

4. I realise that time in port is very busy with loading/unloading cargo etc, but out in the open seas, how many hours would a 3rd officer work in a 24 hour period? Besides watch and maintaining safety equipment, what else might he/she do?

5. How much is there exactly to looking after the safety/lifesaving equipment?

6. Is seasickness something that one can get used to? Have you ever heard of someone who had to leave the job because of it?

7. LiamOSail, you mention having to wash tanks on a tanker. Do you mean getting into it physically with a hose or something else entirely?
That's it for now.

Thanks again for the help already.

LiamoSail

kraggy wrote: »

Hey again,

Firstly, just wan to say thanks a million for the indepth replies. It's great to get so much information from the horses mouth.

So much in fact, that it's triggered more questions, if that's ok?

1. Is there any such thing as a typical pattern of duty? e.g. 3 months on/2 months off? Something like that?

2. Does the third officer just do watchkeeping and look after the safety equipment or might they also do the physcial jobs that seamen do such as painting, cleaning etc?

3. How long does it take to go from third to second officer? Are there courses to attend in order to so or is that only required when going for Chief Mate?

4. I realise that time in port is very busy with loading/unloading cargo etc, but out in the open seas, how many hours would a 3rd officer work in a 24 hour period? Besides watch and maintaining safety equipment, what else might he/she do?

5. How much is there exactly to looking after the safety/lifesaving equipment?

6. Is seasickness something that one can get used to? Have you ever heard of someone who had to leave the job because of it?

7. LiamOSail, you mention having to wash tanks on a tanker. Do you mean getting into it physically with a hose or something else entirely?
That's it for now.

Thanks again for the help already.

Just to answer in sequence

1. 3 months on, 2 off would be a typical pattern for a third or second officer working on a deep sea ship. Some companies may do four on, three off sort of thing. Once you reach the dizzy heights of chief mate or master, they're 'back to back', hence they do three months on, three months off

The likes of supply ships or anchor handlers etc working up the north sea would typically do between three and six weeks on and the same off, while most ferries are roughly two weeks on/off

2. Not a huge amount, but for instance if the lifeboat needs to be cleaned the third mate does it. While cleaning and painting aren't every day jobs for the 3/o, you would do a small bit of it. This could change from company to company though, or more specifically from ship type to ship type

As 3/o or 2/o though you would be working with tools, doing rope work etc in the course of looking after your gear

3. 3/o & 2/o requires the same ticket, so no extra course. Promotion time varies from company to company. Some companies don't have a 3/o so you go straight in as second mate, however you'd find that in such companies you'd still be earning similar to a 3/o elsewhere

As an example, a friend of mine worked for such a company, got to chief mate before I got to second mate, but was earning less then me. Some companies you may do five or six trips third before promotion, others ten or twelve

4. Usually 10 hours a day, give or take on weekdays, while you tend not do ovettime at weekends. Other then watches or looking after your gear, you could be under studying the second mate, so maybe doing some of their jobs, or assisting the chief mate

5. There's not a huge amount to it

6. I think people just get used to the motion. I've never known anyone To quit over it. Come to think of it, I haven't seen anyone sea sick in a good while, and that was only because we had a bit of weather on the beam while in ballast

7. no, tank washings actually quiet interesting. Theres tank washing machines mounted inside the tanks. All we do is adjust the settings, ensure the valves are lined up correctly, run the pump and monitor the operation. I say all, there's actually a good bit to it in doing the line up, and keeping everything running, but it is an interesting operation. No spades or shovels required

Have you given any thought as to what type ships appeal to you? A lot of the answers I give you are based on my own experiences, primarily on tankers. Others with bulk, cruise or more ferry experience may have different answers or opinions

Silent Runner

Hi,

Sorry for digging up an old thread but I too have been eyeing up this course and I think it's a fantastic course, although I'm 24 and if I go ahead with this I'll be 25 when I start this course. Which would mean that I'll be 28 when I'm finished, would this be considered too old?

Just wondering if there are many mature applicants for this course?

Just out of curiosity

323

Tabnabs wrote: »

Hopefully he's joking, I certainly wouldn't be happy in my bunk knowing the OOW is stuck in front of his laptop. The old man would be even less happy to hear about it...

Fear he may not be joking.

One of the lads on my team here (Subsea services, Survey & ROV,s) was a Master for 12 years, western European company, got to the point where he was the only western European officer left on board.

Says he had enough of constantly having to deal with this type of thing and worse. Quit and retrained, 6 months or less in maritime college in northern Holland, now out as survey.

butbut

With regards to anyone worrying about the age profile I'm currently back in Third year at the moment at the end of which there will be my orals and hopefully a ticket! The age profile in our class when we started was mainly from 25 to 30 with only 3 or 4 guys straight out of school. Ten of us were lucky enough to be sponsored the rest had their sea time organised by the college mainly on Arklow and Carisbrooke ships. From the stories they have on their return the guys on the Arklow ships did the best out of the non sponsored guys but ultimately we are all pretty much at the same level only we were lucky enough to get a training wage for our time. Its not unheard of for someone to pursue this career later on in life apparently one of the cruise companies I'm thinking Carnival have a 45 year old Cadet so you wouldn't be the first and not that much older then most of my class.

ulsterimport

Hi,
DO NOT GO TO SEA !!!!! Colleges are businesses wanting fees so offer these courses to anyone willing to give it a go.
You will will almost certainly end up as the only European on board, there to do all the thinking, and taking the blame for everyone elses shortcomings.
By law, (STCW75), you are limited to working ONLY 14 hours a day, thats right, limited to 14 hour working days, 7 days a week for as long as you can stick it on board.
This is normally flouted as it is 'the industry norm to do so', and none of the Port State Control people bother to do much about it.Complain and you'll be sent home as fast as possible, believe me it happens all the time.
[Mod edit: Company Name redacted] is under investigation (again) for flouting the law regarding excessive hours, falsification of log books, not posting look outs at night, verbal threats of sacking,bullying and physical assaults on board.
Contracts are usually voyage by voyage so you'll have NO protection under the law as regards redundancy as you will effectively putting yourself out of work delibirately every time you leave the vessel to go home.
Would this happen in the shipping companies office at the weekend ?, I don't think so
All the above coupled with terrible food, conditions on board and working with people who give a new definition to the phrase' a bit on the thick side' a job(could not possibly call it a career) at sea is not recommended at all

tricky D

Do not publish such allegations without citing a reliable source. Please familiarise yourself with various Maritime and Boards.ie charters.

ulsterimport

Ok understood there are rules to be followed on boards.ie, unlike at sea.

I will be informed directly from statutory body, and Garda, in charge of investigating these'allegations' about a certain Irish company and those employed on their vessels.
Two ministers are already in the loop on these investigations and the outcome will certainly end up in the public arena through traditional news media, will make interesting reading for those in the maritime business.

Main thing is to make people aware of the reality of life at sea.

murphym7

ulsterimport wrote: »

Ok understood there are rules to be followed on boards.ie, unlike at sea.

I will be informed directly from statutory body, and Garda, in charge of investigating these'allegations' about a certain Irish company and those employed on their vessels.
Two ministers are already in the loop on these investigations and the outcome will certainly end up in the public arena through traditional news media, will make interesting reading for those in the maritime business.

Main thing is to make people aware of the reality of life at sea.

I wouldn't count on it buddy. What you believe are serious breaches of law, procedure etc.... Are usually limited to a limited amount of examples and a limited number of captains and deck officers. I worked for an large irish coaster firm when i started out and it is a busy job on busy boats. At times sleep is a luxury and working late at night in port happens, this is a part of the job and most guys just man up and deal with it. There are others that can't deal with and blow their holes to others about how bad it is at sea, or specifically point the finger at certain irish shipping firms.

Don't get me wrong, I am not a cheerleader for this company, and they did get their pound of flesh from me. On the other hand, where else was I going to get my sea time when training. Other companies were not exactly lining up to take us from college and place us on their boats.

Is working on ships hard, hell yes, is it worth it, yes. Does it suit everyone, nope, some guys can't hack it. Some of the guys that can't hack it admit it isn't for them and go home. Others come home and bitch and moan about how nobody should ever go to sea cause its crap.

Tabnabs

ulsterimport wrote: »

Contracts are usually voyage by voyage so you'll have NO protection under the law as regards redundancy as you will effectively putting yourself out of work delibirately every time you leave the vessel to go home.

Agency work is voyage to voyage with no ties or expectations on either side. You get paid slightly less (the agency gets a fee from the company) but you can do SFA (and I've seen it) as you'll never be back on that ship or sail with those lads again.

On the other hand, two companies I worked for both gave me good redundancy terms (one when I was still a cadet) and I had very clear terms of contract.

ulsterimport wrote: »

All the above coupled with terrible food, conditions on board and working with people who give a new definition to the phrase' a bit on the thick side' a job(could not possibly call it a career) at sea is not recommended at all

The lousy companies and trades are well known and IMO, if you sign up for that, you get what you deserve.

Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.

kraggy

Do officers get paid while not at sea? If you're employed with one of the large companies I mean.

And how about travel to port. E.g if you're sailing from say Rotterdam to Hong Kong, I presume they pay for transport from here to there?

islanderre

The companies I sailed with paid you while on leave and provided your flights & transfers from your home to the ship..... I'm out of the loop now for 8 years do things may of changed by now.

Tabnabs

Reputable companies will pay you a monthly salary just like any other job. They will also pay for travel expenses (and they book it all, you just show up). Agency work tends will be payment for work done (and usually travel) as there is no leave time included.

murphym7

Every company I worked for flew me to and from the ships, some might delay your pay off for a short period of time if you were going to be heading for a closer port to your home and the home of your replacement.

On pay, as Tabnabs says, most of the better companies pay you evenly throughout the year. I worked for one company for 4 years that paid me every 6 weeks, played havoc with loan repayments and bills.

butbut

ulsterimport wrote: »

Hi,
DO NOT GO TO SEA !!!!! Colleges are businesses wanting fees so offer these courses to anyone willing to give it a go.
You will will almost certainly end up as the only European on board, there to do all the thinking, and taking the blame for everyone elses shortcomings.
By law, (STCW75), you are limited to working ONLY 14 hours a day, thats right, limited to 14 hour working days, 7 days a week for as long as you can stick it on board.
This is normally flouted as it is 'the industry norm to do so', and none of the Port State Control people bother to do much about it.Complain and you'll be sent home as fast as possible, believe me it happens all the time.
[Mod edit: Company Name redacted] is under investigation (again) for flouting the law regarding excessive hours, falsification of log books, not posting look outs at night, verbal threats of sacking,bullying and physical assaults on board.
Contracts are usually voyage by voyage so you'll have NO protection under the law as regards redundancy as you will effectively putting yourself out of work delibirately every time you leave the vessel to go home.
Would this happen in the shipping companies office at the weekend ?, I don't think so
All the above coupled with terrible food, conditions on board and working with people who give a new definition to the phrase' a bit on the thick side' a job(could not possibly call it a career) at sea is not recommended at all

Whoa! A whole load venom there have to say that definitely has not been my experience at all, nor that of anyone I know who has been to sea in the last couple of years. Yes there are some cowboy outfits out there it is after all a global industry but there are equally some fantastic companies out there and superb money to be made with the right level of commitment and a bit of flair for the job.