To swim, or not to swim;

zico10

I'm currently training for an Ironman 70.3, which is just under 3 months away now and I'm wondering how much training time it would be worth investing in the swim.
I've never been a strong swimmer and the swim has always been by far and away the weakest leg of any triathlon I've ever done. I swam 1.07 for an iron distance race back in August 2010, and back then I was swimming 100's off 1.50 in training. Nothing spectacular, but this is probably as good as I ever was.
Since then though my swimming has gotten a lot worse. I didn't swim again until Christmas of that year and then the next time after that was May of the following year. In all of 2011 I'd say I actually went scuba diving more times than swimming and when I swam 1.8km at Laguna Phuket triathlon last November I finished in a time of 41.54. It was a non wetsuit swim, which would explain some of the discrepancy between my iron distance swim, but it was 90% just down to being poorly prepared.
I've made slightly more of an effort with the swim this year, but I am still some way off where I was. I'm currently swimming off 2.00 for 100m, but it's sometimes a struggle and after a combined total of 2,000m or so, I start to miss the times.
Now getting closer to making my point. I'd initially thought to myself, to hell with trying hard to bring down my swim time and I'd be much better off spending the time on the bike and run. My training plan sees me visiting a pool twice a week and then the sea once or twice more. Realistically the pool sessions are the only ones where I'm going to get quality work done. It would be possible to visit up to four evenings a week, (Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday). Swimming four weekday evenings in a row seems like a it of overkill to me, apart from the fact that it's going to start eating into my bike and run training.
Right now I've rough ideas of the times I'd like to do in Phuket. At this point in time I'd be happy starting the bike having got out of T1 in 40 minutes. Then for the bike and run my ballpark splits for these two are 2.35 and 1.25. That's hoping I can still keep training the way I do.
A 40 minute swim will rank much lower than these two splits and when talking to a friend, he made the point that in this instance it would be much easier to improve upon a 40 minute swim than my projected times for the bike and run. He does have a point, but it seems counter intuitive to me to devote too much time to what is the shortest part of the race.

Any thoughts?

Thanks.

Kurt Godel

Aside from lowering your 40min T1 exit, wouldn't swim training also feed into run and bike performance (if only in that its active minimal-stress recovery)?

interested

zico10 wrote: »

I'm currently training for an Ironman 70.3, which is just under 3 months away now and I'm wondering how much training time it would be worth investing in the swim.
I've never been a strong swimmer and the swim has always been by far and away the weakest leg of any triathlon I've ever done. I swam 1.07 for an iron distance race back in August 2010, and back then I was swimming 100's off 1.50 in training. Nothing spectacular, but this is probably as good as I ever was.
Since then though my swimming has gotten a lot worse. I didn't swim again until Christmas of that year and then the next time after that was May of the following year. In all of 2011 I'd say I actually went scuba diving more times than swimming and when I swam 1.8km at Laguna Phuket triathlon last November I finished in a time of 41.54. It was a non wetsuit swim, which would explain some of the discrepancy between my iron distance swim, but it was 90% just down to being poorly prepared.
I've made slightly more of an effort with the swim this year, but I am still some way off where I was. I'm currently swimming off 2.00 for 100m, but it's sometimes a struggle and after a combined total of 2,000m or so, I start to miss the times.
Now getting closer to making my point. I'd initially thought to myself, to hell with trying hard to bring down my swim time and I'd be much better off spending the time on the bike and run. My training plan sees me visiting a pool twice a week and then the sea once or twice more. Realistically the pool sessions are the only ones where I'm going to get quality work done. It would be possible to visit up to four evenings a week, (Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday and Thursday). Swimming four weekday evenings in a row seems like a it of overkill to me, apart from the fact that it's going to start eating into my bike and run training.
Right now I've rough ideas of the times I'd like to do in Phuket. At this point in time I'd be happy starting the bike having got out of T1 in 40 minutes. Then for the bike and run my ballpark splits for these two are 2.35 and 1.25. That's hoping I can still keep training the way I do.
A 40 minute swim will rank much lower than these two splits and when talking to a friend, he made the point that in this instance it would be much easier to improve upon a 40 minute swim than my projected times for the bike and run. He does have a point, but it seems counter intuitive to me to devote too much time to what is the shortest part of the race.

Any thoughts?

Thanks.

Hey Champ - reading the log with interest - and your post above raises an interesting question that I've heard more than once.
Not sure exactly where you're doing your swimming but is there a possibility of swimming in a group ? imho this would give you more bang for your buck in terms of time training on swimming during the week. For a 5 minute swim time improvement how many hours per week swimming will you need to put in ? tricky tricky question since there may be some obvious things to work on regarding your stroke or those 5 minutes could be clawed back by solid set work and swim focus for 3*1 hour sessions per week.
Certainly, its my opinion that working with a clock on 100's and 50's is alot more productive for 1.9km training that long straight swimming.
PM me for more details of sets, Id be happy to pass along the weekly belvo session for your interest.

Enjoy the sunshine Alan.

zico10

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Aside from lowering your 40min T1 exit, wouldn't swim training also feed into run and bike performance (if only in that its active minimal-stress recovery)?

I can't be certain of the answer, and not trying to be a smart arse, but I think a better way of training for the run and cycle would be by running and cycling. I subscribe to the training philosophy that more is more. I feel I'm not going to be running the sort of weekly mileage to have to worry about running injuries and sure isn't cycling, just like swimming, non impact as well?
Do any pro cyclists or pro runners swim for recovery? I can't imagine it's a significant part of their training.

zico10

interested wrote: »

Hey Champ - reading the log with interest - and your post above raises an interesting question that I've heard more than once.
Not sure exactly where you're doing your swimming but is there a possibility of swimming in a group ? imho this would give you more bang for your buck in terms of time training on swimming during the week. For a 5 minute swim time improvement how many hours per week swimming will you need to put in ? tricky tricky question since there may be some obvious things to work on regarding your stroke or those 5 minutes could be clawed back by solid set work and swim focus for 3*1 hour sessions per week.
Certainly, its my opinion that working with a clock on 100's and 50's is alot more productive for 1.9km training that long straight swimming.
PM me for more details of sets, Id be happy to pass along the weekly belvo session for your interest.

Enjoy the sunshine Alan.

Thanks for the advice, no chance of joining a group swim of any sort here. I've been laughed at for walking 100m to a shop instead of taking a scooter. The typical Thai I've encountered so far isn't too fond of exercise in general and swimming in particular. It just seems to be something Thai kids engage in.
I've to get to get to bed now. It's 15 minutes to midnight here and I plan to be up at 5.40 for my next training session. I'll be in touch about those swim sessions. Thanks again.

Kurt Godel

zico10 wrote: »

I can't be certain of the answer, and not trying to be a smart arse, but I think a better way of training for the run and cycle would be by running and cycling. I subscribe to the training philosophy that more is more. I feel I'm not going to be running the sort of weekly mileage to have to worry about running injuries and sure isn't cycling, just like swimming, non impact as well?
Do any pro cyclists or pro runners swim for recovery? I can't imagine it's a significant part of their training.

Agree 100% (and I'm loath to profess advice to a 9 hr guy like yourself), but you're training for a Tri. Maybe I'm misreading your OP, but you seem to be saying swim training time could be wasted, if its taking from bike/running training time (which you feel will lead to greater time benefits). I'm just suggesting there are other overall benefits to swim training to consider, besides the obvious (minutes trained:minutes gained) ratio for each discipline. Not least of which is a well-rounded physique suited for your event.
Are there many Duathlon specialists (or bike specialists for that matter) who achieve high Tri placings, and don't swim train?

peter kern

zico10 wrote: »

I can't be certain of the answer, and not trying to be a smart arse, but I think a better way of training for the run and cycle would be by running and cycling. I subscribe to the training philosophy that more is more. I feel I'm not going to be running the sort of weekly mileage to have to worry about running injuries and sure isn't cycling, just like swimming, non impact as well?
Do any pro cyclists or pro runners swim for recovery? I can't imagine it's a significant part of their training.

but dont forget its not only how fast you swim but also how you leave the water and this is what you see all the time very good duathletes not performing to their potential in bike and run after a swim.
yes and quite a few pro marathon runners swim and cycle.
gebreselasie swims and stationary bikes

and remember place your hand correctly in the water ;-)

MrCreosote

I reckon just from looking at the times you'd get 5 minutes off the bike far easier than 5 minutes off the swim.

And it sounds like you'd enjoy the bike work a lot more too.

shotgunmcos

MrCreosote wrote: »

I reckon just from looking at the times you'd get 5 minutes off the bike far easier than 5 minutes off the swim.

And it sounds like you'd enjoy the bike work a lot more too.

I disagree. Zico has done 67 for 3.8. That would be circa 32 for 1.9. Some quality swims with lots of CSS Threshold and speedwork will get that back inside a few months IMO. The work in the water won't tax the legs as much so quality can remain on bike and run. Going for 5 mins off a bike split in that time would require heavy bike focus to the detriment of run form. The race pace swim on the day will then sap some of the 5 mins of the bike you worked so hard to get. Just my 2c but from the log entries Zico is in decent bike run form and could still chip away at those through a swim block...

zico10

First off thanks for the replies and I am sorry for not getting back sooner. It was just that what you all said gave me something to think about and I wanted to have made a decision on my swim training before coming back on with more questions.

Kurt Godel wrote: »

Agree 100% (and I'm loath to profess advice to a 9 hr guy like yourself), but you're training for a Tri. Maybe I'm misreading your OP, but you seem to be saying swim training time could be wasted, if its taking from bike/running training time (which you feel will lead to greater time benefits).

I don't think the '9 hr' tag is entirely accurate; it makes me sound much better than I really am. I am much closer to being a 10 hr guy in reality. Feel free to advise, I am far from an expert and I'll happily listen to anybody's thoughts on training.

I wasn't suggesting swim training would be a waste of time, I'm certain as MCOS says it should be straightforward enough for me to pick up a few minutes here. I was just wondering would it be time better spent on the bike and run. Those predictions are where I hope to be at in 2 and a half months. I'm not so sure about the cycle, there will be a few factors that come into play, but for the run I think with the focus I will give it that's as fast as I can hope to go. I think decreases in run training will see this target become harder and harder to attain.
I think in the Thai climate, not being fully prepared for the run could turn it into a painful jog for me. And I'd lose a lot more than 5 minutes were this to happen.

peter kern wrote: »

and remember place your hand correctly in the water ;-)

I thought we'd fixed that problem forevermore.

MrCreosote wrote: »

I reckon just from looking at the times you'd get 5 minutes off the bike far easier than 5 minutes off the swim.

And it sounds like you'd enjoy the bike work a lot more too.

I don't enjoy training of any sort, I f*cking hate it!:pac:

No, but seriously what MCOS says below makes sense. I think I'll already be working hard to hit a 2.35 bike, pushing harder for an extra 5 minutes here doesn't make much sense if 5 minutes could also be gained whilst swimming comfortably.

shotgunmcos wrote: »

I disagree. Zico has done 67 for 3.8. That would be circa 32 for 1.9. Some quality swims with lots of CSS Threshold and speedwork will get that back inside a few months IMO. The work in the water won't tax the legs as much so quality can remain on bike and run. Going for 5 mins off a bike split in that time would require heavy bike focus to the detriment of run form. The race pace swim on the day will then sap some of the 5 mins of the bike you worked so hard to get. Just my 2c but from the log entries Zico is in decent bike run form and could still chip away at those through a swim block...

Thanks, you certainly make a lot of sense. I just hope you're right about my previous from coming back.

Now if you are anybody else could answer the questions that follow, it'd be much appreciatred.

I've decided to commit to three pool swims a week. They will be about 1-1.5 hours in length. I've been told the pool will be packed with pesky kids on Friday evenings. I'll pay it a visit this Friday just to see for myself, and if true, it'll maen my three swims will have to take place on a combination of Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday or Thursday evening.

I've been given details from Interested for one of the weekly sessions, but I am wondering what I should do for the other two.

So two questions, for swim training what would be the best combination of those four weekday evenings? And what should the focus of each of my three sessions be?

interested

zico10 wrote: »

So two questions, for swim training what would be the best combination of those four weekday evenings? And what should the focus of each of my three sessions be?

For 10 weeks, Id say 'Swim Fitness' - but it's been an age since I saw you swim. One of 4 sessions could be done as a recovery swim/session or since you hate training - a blow up chair and a beer in the shallow end.

IronmanJNR

shotgunmcos wrote: »

I disagree. Zico has done 67 for 3.8. That would be circa 32 for 1.9. Some quality swims with lots of CSS Threshold and speedwork will get that back inside a few months IMO. The work in the water won't tax the legs as much so quality can remain on bike and run. Going for 5 mins off a bike split in that time would require heavy bike focus to the detriment of run form. The race pace swim on the day will then sap some of the 5 mins of the bike you worked so hard to get. Just my 2c but from the log entries Zico is in decent bike run form and could still chip away at those through a swim block...

Good point and well made , would have always been of the opinion it would be easier to make up 5 mins on the bike myself .. But that point was well made and would be in agreement with that myself now

"Wont Tax the legs" -- Love it !!!

leeomurchu

As the old mantra goes always work on your weaknesses your strengths will look after themselves

shotgunmcos

IronmanJNR wrote: »

, would have always been of the opinion it would be easier to make up 5 mins on the bike myself .. !

Depends on Context. In general time spent on the bike is your best bet. The time to reach new levels vs reaching 'old' (not childhood old) is significantly different. Time spent in the pool has diminishing returns the longer the event goes. An IM bike is around 50% of ones race etc...

However as with the post above, always good to address a perceived weakness


@Zico - I'd agree with interested on one rec swim. The other could be an OW? Good one for HIM

up to 1km warm up with a mix of drills, short sprints, stroke focus etc

4*400 as
100 hard, 300 steady
200 hard, 200 steady
300 hard, 100 steady
400 RP

30 secs between reps

Then 8*50 sprinting the first 20m then relaxing

Long easy cool down back on stroke focus

peter kern

interested wrote: »

For 10 weeks, Id say 'Swim Fitness' - but it's been an age since I saw you swim. One of 4 sessions could be done as a recovery swim/session or since you hate training - a blow up chair and a beer in the shallow end.

started my swim training yesterday already feel much faster and really enjoyed it
it really helps my balance in the water. for the first time in a long time i found my sweet spot in the water .....

interested

peter kern wrote: »

started my swim training yesterday already feel much faster and really enjoyed it
it really helps my balance in the water. for the first time in a long time i found my sweet spot in the water .....

A lot of people struggle to find their technique in late September. Getting back to basics and focusing on first principles is key. If you're still struggling at blowing up the inflatable chair or getting the beer just so ... you really need to take a long look at yourself and where you're going in the sport.

IronmanJNR

peter kern wrote: »

started my swim training yesterday already feel much faster and really enjoyed it
it really helps my balance in the water. for the first time in a long time i found my sweet spot in the water .....

You must be placing you hand in water correctly pete :eek:

peter kern

that look in the mirror I had years ago and chess and art gives me a better life balance than coaching and racing. But i still havent figured out the beer bit ;-) ( thanks god )