Cycle race? on N18 Sunday 9th

thegrayson

I'll preface this by saying that I am a cyclist, I commute to work and I also mountain bike. I think myself considerate of cyclist when I am driving the car.

Driving along the N18 yestreday after 11am I started to pass cyclists just after Ardrahan, travelling in one and twos it wasn't a problem. From well before Kilcolgan I, and about twnety other cars, came upon a group of maybe fourteen cyclists travelling in a pack. Sometimes they used the hard shoudler but for the main part until they had climbed the hill on the Galway side of Clarinbridge they stayed on the main lane as a pack. They had a car travelling immediately behing the pack with it's hazard lights on, the behaviour of this car was very frustrating, it was in and out of the shoulder like a yo-yo, sometime even riding the line, neither in or out, because of the hazard lights there was no indication what it might do. Overtaking was impossible.

After almost 5km stuck in a queue of traffic behind this group, 45 - 49 kph, we got a chance to overtake after Clarinbridge, the car travelling with the cyclists made this very difficult. The cyclists as a pack moved into the shoulder, but as I was passing two tried to make a break from the pack by pulling onto the road with so much as a glance to see if it was clear, I had to break hard and swerve towards on coming traffic, which was already giving us a wide berth so we could pass the cyclists, in order not to hit the clowns in front of me. They then almost wobbled back into the pack.

I don't know if this was a race or club training, there were no signs along the route indicating anything was taking place, and the Cyling Ireland site shows no information for yesterday. I have never been so irritated at a group of cylclists or worried as a driver that I might cause an accident/ injury. If anybody knows which group was out in this area yesterday you might let them know that their behaviour caused a lot of stress.

I'm not trolling here, I feel that what I saw yesterday was careless and dangerous.

ashleey

Surely the support vehicle was there to warn you that there was a group of cyclists?
This has been done to death but there is no law that compels slower moving traffic of any type to move over.
If you can't see far enough to get past them safely then you have to wait, whether they are bikes or tractors or Sunday mass goers.

Dermot Illogical

Whatever about their behaviour in general, I'm seriously impressed they were doing 45-49km/h over a distance of 5km into a headwind.

buffalo

Perfect timing! I was just thinking about posting in the Motors forum about the amount of cars I got stuck behind in Dorset Street yesterday. Nobody was moving, random lane changes stopping me from filtering effectively, and buses just stuck in the bus lane, with no space for me to overtake! It was shocking, and the behaviour of some of the motorists at junctions... If anyone knows anyone who was driving on Dorset Street, can you let them know they were careless and inconsiderate? Thanks.

I really don't know why I'm getting involved, but...

OP, you say "Overtaking was impossible", and there was "no indication what [the support car] might do". Yet you tried to overtake, and then "had to break hard and swerve towards on coming traffic". wtf? Are you sure the other road users were the ones being careless and dangerous?

You complain about there being no signs - was the car with flashing hazards not enough? The sight of the pack of cyclists didn't give away that there was an event taking place?

If you're truly "worried as a driver that [you] might cause an accident/ injury", then just stay calm and patient, and don't try and overtake when there's oncoming traffic. And then you will not cause any accidents or injuries. It's not rocket science.

Lumen

buffalo wrote: »

OP, you say "Overtaking was impossible", and there was "no indication what [the support car] might do". Yet you tried to overtake, and then "had to break hard and swerve towards on coming traffic". wtf? Are you sure the other road users were the ones being careless and dangerous?

People have a right to drive at a constant 100kph on a national road. Anyone who prevents this is guilty of incitement to dangerous driving.

I spent far too much of the Saturday and Sunday sitting at 85kph on the N11. The whole of Wexford seemed to be on some sort of go slow. I wouldn't have minded except that on Saturday I had a restaurant reservation at the only place in Wexford that serves edible food, and their last orders are taken at 8.30pm. GET OUT OF MY WAY, I'M HUNGRY.

thegrayson

• The support car wasn't visible until you were up behind the group which takes a while when you're in a long queue of traffic
• Once immediately behind the cyclists I could see where the road was clear ahead.
• The way in which the support car constantly moved in and out of the shoulder was dangerous, cars attempting to over take the cyclists were stopped repeatedly by this. Once immediately behind the cyclists I could see where the road was clear ahead but was still unable to pass.
• I have no problem being stuck behind slow moving traffic, my issue is with their behaviour whilst being overtaken.
• Buffalo, I remained behind the support car for quite a distance before I had a safe opportunity to pass, during this time he moved in and out of the shoulder, because he had his hazards on he could not indicate a lane change, past Clarinbridge once the support car and all the cyclists were in the shoulder I indicated, accelerated and started to pass them in my lane, when the cyclists then pulled out in front of me I was forced into the oncoming lane.
  I can't see how what I did was unsafe. If you're changing lane in a car or on a bike you check that it is clear and you indicate. They didn't.
• Buffalo, I'm not talking about cyclists in general, I'm talking about one specific group, two of their members and their support car. Weaving in and out of the hard shoulder would have a regular motorist reported for dangerous driving.
• As said already I am not trolling here or trying to start a flame war, just want my opinion heard by the cycling group on the road yesterday. Being stuck in slow moving traffic was frustrating but something I accept, having people weaving in an out of the hard shoulder :mad:

Please stay on topic, I don't want a motorist versus cyclist debate. I am both and both groups are frequently guilty of their own brand of idiocy. I see dangerous cycling and driving every day of the week.

Lumen

thegrayson wrote: »

I can't see how what I did was unsafe

Overtake fully in the opposite lane when it is safe to do so.

seamus

thegrayson wrote: »

As said already I am not trolling here or trying to start a flame war, just want my opinion heard by the cycling group on the road yesterday. Being stuck in slow moving traffic was frustrating but something I accept, having people weaving in an out of the hard shoulder :mad:

With all due respect, there's nothing anyone here can really do about it.

At best you might get lucky and someone might be able to tell you what club it possibly was and then you could complain to them, but outside of that I'm not sure what else you really expected from this thread?

Can you give any description of what people were wearing, did the support vehicle have anything written on it, etc?

thegrayson

Lumen wrote: »

Overtake fully in the opposite lane when it is safe to do so.

The cyclists and support car were in the hard shoulder, the lane ahead of me was clear. They did not check to see if it was safe for them to leave the shoulder, they did not indicate.

thegrayson

seamus wrote: »

With all due respect, there's nothing anyone here can really do about it.

At best you might get lucky and someone might be able to tell you what club it possibly was and then you could complain to them, but outside of that I'm not sure what else you really expected from this thread?

Can you give any description of what people were wearing, did the support vehicle have anything written on it, etc?

Am only posting on the off chance that my comments make it to the right ears. The cylclists were wearing a variety of lycra and the car had no markings.

thegrayson

Lumen wrote: »

People have a right to drive at a constant 100kph on a national road. Anyone who prevents this is guilty of incitement to dangerous driving.

I see where you're coming from but I don't think you're entirely correct.
"Avoid driving too slowly
In normal road and traffic conditions, keep up with the pace of the traffic flow while obeying the speed limit. While you must keep a safe distance away from the vehicle in front, you should not drive so slowly that your vehicle
unnecessarily blocks other road users. If you drive too slowly, you risk frustrating other drivers, which could lead to dangerous overtaking."

The cyclists themselves were mostly okay, they used the shoudler a lot to be fair, apart from the two that pulled out on me, it was the blocking action of the support car that really drove me and cracked.

chakattack

Sounds like it was a race.

The riders jumping from the front and to the right to evade other riders grabbing their slipstream probably didn't expect a car to overtake in the left lane. The car with the beacons is there to block that type of thing and signal a hazard. They should have looked but the OP should have used the right lane to overtake.

Anyway 5km at 45kph is 7 mins. Not a huge inconvenience.....

buffalo

thegrayson wrote: »

• The support car wasn't visible until you were up behind the group which takes a while when you're in a long queue of traffic

What difference would signs have made? Some advance notice would've let you avoid the area, but other than that, would your stress levels have been eased if you knew that somewhere up ahead, it was a group of cyclists causing your delay? What if it had been a tractor? Do you want signs for that? Do you need a notice in the newspaper for every club spin?

thegrayson wrote: »

• Once immediately behind the cyclists I could see where the road was clear ahead.
• The way in which the support car constantly moved in and out of the shoulder was dangerous, cars attempting to over take the cyclists were stopped repeatedly by this. Once immediately behind the cyclists I could see where the road was clear ahead but was still unable to pass.

Did you think that was perhaps that was partially his objective? I mean, it's a car with hazards on, trying to telling you there's a hazard up ahead. A hazard that requires more care than regular overtaking.
And if the road is clear ahead, but you're unable to pass, then the road isn't really clear ahead, is it?

thegrayson wrote: »

• I have no problem being stuck behind slow moving traffic, my issue is with their behaviour whilst being overtaken.
• Buffalo, I remained behind the support car for quite a distance before I had a safe opportunity to pass, during this time he moved in and out of the shoulder, because he had his hazards on he could not indicate a lane change, past Clarinbridge once the support car and all the cyclists were in the shoulder I indicated, accelerated and started to pass them in my lane, when the cyclists then pulled out in front of me I was forced into the oncoming lane.
  I can't see how what I did was unsafe. If you're changing lane in a car or on a bike you check that it is clear and you indicate. They didn't.

If you have no problem being stuck behind slow moving traffic, why did you overtake? Or do you mean you have no problem being stuck behind slow moving traffic for some period of time?
I'm not sure that the hard shoulder counts as a lane. Did the cyclists cross over the white lane into the oncoming lane when they made their manoeuvre? Did you?

The ROTR say after overtaking, "get back to your own side of the road". Not only that, "You should give extra space when overtaking a cyclist, as they may need to avoid uneven road surfaces and obstacles"

thegrayson wrote: »

• Buffalo, I'm not talking about cyclists in general, I'm talking about one specific group, two of their members and their support car. Weaving in and out of the hard shoulder would have a regular motorist reported for dangerous driving.
• As said already I am not trolling here or trying to start a flame war, just want my opinion heard by the cycling group on the road yesterday. Being stuck in slow moving traffic was frustrating but something I accept, having people weaving in an out of the hard shoulder :mad:

Please stay on topic, I don't want a motorist versus cyclist debate. I am both and both groups are frequently guilty of their own brand of idiocy. I see dangerous cycling and driving every day of the week.

I'm not talking about cyclists in general either, not motorists in general. I was talking about one incident that happened to me yesterday, during which I accepted the delay caused by other road users and slowed my cycling down to near walking speeds at times, and stopped at others. I could've filtered at speed, but that would've put people's wing mirrors in jeopardy, and I don't like doing that. What I like even less is putting people's lives in danger, which you seem to have done with your dangerous overtaking.

chakattack

thegrayson wrote: »

it was the blocking action of the support car that really drove me and cracked.

The car is intentionally blocking traffic behind to keep the racers safe from poor overtaking. You just weren't patient enough to wait for a clear gap in the right lane when presented with an abnormal situation and nearly creamed two of them.

thegrayson

Avoiding the area would have been ideal as I did on Saturday knowing there was a market in Clarinbridge and as I will do next weeked knowing the Oyster Festival is on.

buffalo wrote: »

Did you think that was perhaps that was partially his objective? I mean, it's a car with hazards on, trying to telling you there's a hazard up ahead. A hazard that requires more care than regular overtaking.
And if the road is clear ahead, but you're unable to pass, then the road isn't really clear ahead, is it?

The suport car actively blocked the main lane between Kilcolgan and Clarinbridge even when the cyclists were occupying the shoulder. I only moved to overtake once the lane ahead of me was clear, both the car and cyclists were in the shoulder. I hace said this already. I was maybe the sixth car to pass after Clarinbridge, the others ahead of me did so without cyclist pulling out in front of them.

buffalo wrote: »

If you have no problem being stuck behind slow moving traffic, why did you overtake? Or do you mean you have no problem being stuck behind slow moving traffic for some period of time?
I'm not sure that the hard shoulder counts as a lane. Did the cyclists cross over the white lane into the oncoming lane when they made their manoeuvre? Did you?

I have no problem being stuck in slow moving traffic for some time but as the opportunity to overtake presented itself I took it, otherwise I woudl have been the slow moving traffic holding up other road users behind me. The cyclist left the hard shoulder entirely, pulling out infront of me after I had safely passed the support car. Surely you can't object to me using the road when the traffic ahead of me is in the hard shoulder.

buffalo wrote: »

The ROTR say after overtaking, "get back to your own side of the road". Not only that, "You should give extra space when overtaking a cyclist, as they may need to avoid uneven road surfaces and obstacles"

Until these two pulled out infront of me I didn't need to leave my side of the road. I gave ample space to allow for passing a cyclist, they weren't simply avoiding debris or a pot hole, they tried to break from the pack and pulled out into the middle of my lane without a back ward glance. It's the same as if another motorist cut me off during an overtaking manouver or accelerated while being passed. Bloody dangerous.
The ROTR also say
"Do cycle in single file in heavy
traffic.
Do cycle in single file if cycling
beside another person would
endanger, inconvenience or block
other traffic or pedestrians."

buffalo wrote: »

I'm not talking about cyclists in general either, not motorists in general. I was talking about one incident that happened to me yesterday, during which I accepted the delay caused by other road users and slowed my cycling down to near walking speeds at times, and stopped at others. I could've filtered at speed, but that would've put people's wing mirrors in jeopardy, and I don't like doing that. What I like even less is putting people's lives in danger, which you seem to have done with your dangerous overtaking.

The support car and all the bicyles moved into the hard shoulder once the passed through Claregalway. Motorists including myself began to pass them in the main traffic lane as soon as it was clear. You have me repeating myself. We indicated and gave plenty of space, how is this unsafe?

thegrayson

chakattack wrote: »

The car is intentionally blocking traffic behind to keep the racers safe from poor overtaking. You just weren't patient enough to wait for a clear gap in the right lane when presented with an abnormal situation and nearly creamed two of them.

So when the cyclists are travelling in a pack, in the left hard shoulder, with the left main lane clear, motorists are not permitted to pass in the left main lane? If this is the case then I'm in the wrong and owe these guys an apolopy for the scare and near miss. It seemed to me that the support car moved out of the way to allow the tailback to clear.

I posted to pass on a message and am being castigated for driving past cyclists on a clear lane, and nobody is commenting on the lack of signalling from the support car or cyclists, as a cyclist myself I'm perplexed by this.

Motorist pass traffic occupying the hard shoudler every day, agricultural vehicles, animals, vehciles towing, breakdowns etc, usually these don't attempt to move back into the main flow of traffic without indicating, why do you consider these two cyclists exempt? Or their support car?

As said above the ROTR state that "a cyclist should cycle single file if cycling
beside another person would endanger, inconvenience or block
other traffic." They are also bound to indicate when changing lane like every other road user.

yop

thegrayson wrote: »

So when the cyclists are travelling in a pack, in the left hard shoulder, with the left main lane clear, motorists are not permitted to pass in the left main lane? If this is the case then I'm in the wrong and owe these guys an apolopy for the scare and near miss. It seemed to me that the support car moved out of the way to allow the tailback to clear.

I posted to pass on a message and am being castigated for driving past cyclists on a clear lane, and nobody is commenting on the lack of signalling from the support car or cyclists, as a cyclist myself I'm perplexed by this.

Motorist pass traffic occupying the hard shoudler every day, agricultural vehicles, animals, vehciles towing, breakdowns etc, usually these don't attempt to move back into the main flow of traffic without indicating, why do you consider these two cyclists exempt? Or their support car?

As said above the ROTR state that "a cyclist should cycle single file if cycling
beside another person would endanger, inconvenience or block
other traffic." They are also bound to indicate when changing lane like every other road user.

If you were out cycling you would understand why they do that, your getting castigated because the thread is just another moanfest and as I said already, if you were a cyclist then you wouldn't be on here thumping the keyboard and giving out.
Head outside, take in a deep breath, thank God your alive and relax.

thegrayson

chakattack wrote: »

Sounds like it was a race.

The riders jumping from the front and to the right to evade other riders grabbing their slipstream probably didn't expect a car to overtake in the left lane. The car with the beacons is there to block that type of thing and signal a hazard. They should have looked but the OP should have used the right lane to overtake.

Anyway 5km at 45kph is 7 mins. Not a huge inconvenience.....

Kilcolgan is only where we became aware of the group, up til that I just thought it was a few lads out for a Sunday morning cycle, I do it myself. Repeating myself again, the lane ahead of me was clear, I should have waited for the oncoming right hand lane to be clear too and given the cyclists a whole lane rather than 3 - 4 feet passing room?

There was no beacon on the support car, just all four indicators flashing, no hand signal was offered by the driver to indicate a lane change.

thegrayson

yop wrote: »

If you were out cycling you would understand why they do that, your getting castigated because the thread is just another moanfest and as I said already, if you were a cyclist then you wouldn't be on here thumping the keyboard and giving out.
Head outside, take in a deep breath, thank God your alive and relax.

I cycle to work four days of the week and try to get the mtb out every other weekend, I think that makes me a cyclist, been commuting to school or work for twenty five years. Cycling or driving I try to obey the ROTR. I use lights and reflectors, dont cyle on paths, observe white lines, stop signs and traffic lights, dont filter dangerously, the odd ocassion that I do cycle with a group we woudl assume single file regularly to allow cars to pass, and on much narrower roads that the N18. When drving I use my indicators, observe the speed limit and even in busy city center traffic allow plenty of space when passing a bike.

These guys really got up my nose. Sorry for ranting.

yop

thegrayson wrote: »

I cycle to work four days of the week and try to get the mtb out every other weekend, I think that makes me a cyclist, been commuting to school or work for twenty five years. Cycling or driving I try to obey the ROTR. I use lights and reflectors, dont cyle on paths, observe white lines, stop signs and traffic lights, dont filter dangerously, the odd ocassion that I do cycle with a group we woudl assume single file regularly to allow cars to pass, and on much narrower roads that the N18. When drving I use my indicators, observe the speed limit and even in busy city center traffic allow plenty of space when passing a bike.

These guys really got up my nose. Sorry for ranting.

Halo in the post

ratracer

I passed this group earlier on in the morning as they were heading out. Its a club spin and the safety car is with them any time I've seen them. From the OP here, you seem to have been caught out by overtaking in an unsafe manner,that is you were not anticipating the unexpected.The two cyclists shouldn't have swerved from the hard shoulder to the main lane, but you should have been on the other side of the white line safely overtake. If as you say you are also a keen cyclist, surely you would have known to give the group plenty of space. I'm not a member of this club, however I regularly encounter them on the road, both on the bike and in the car and rarely have a problem with them.

ashleey

More to the point, they must be from a great club. Average speeds in the 40s and a support car for a Sunday spin! I'm talking to our committee

thegrayson

ratracer wrote: »

I passed this group earlier on in the morning as they were heading out. Its a club spin and the safety car is with them any time I've seen them. From the OP here, you seem to have been caught out by overtaking in an unsafe manner,that is you were not anticipating the unexpected.The two cyclists shouldn't have swerved from the hard shoulder to the main lane, but you should have been on the other side of the white line safely overtake. If as you say you are also a keen cyclist, surely you would have known to give the group plenty of space. I'm not a member of this club, however I regularly encounter them on the road, both on the bike and in the car and rarely have a problem with them.

Last comment from me. The safety car was driven in what I perceive to be an unsafe manner for over 5km and this is only the distance that I was aware of him. If you are driving with your hazard lights on you should use hand signals to indicate, and actively moving to block other traffic has to be an offence. This happened to cars ahead of me. I was delighted when he pulled in after Claregalway. I will repeat again, they were occupying the shoulder had clear space in the shoulder in addition to what I allowed in the main lane. Plenty of space was given. There is driving to expect the unexepected and then there is having two heedless individuals move six feet to their left without a glance or a signal. If I did that in a car I would likely cause a very serious accident.
I'll accept with skepticism that I should I have been in the oncoming lane despite having my own lane clear ahead of me. However it seems to be accepted here that the safety car holding up traffic in this manner is acceptable. I disagree, travelling behind the pack with lights flashing si fine, its only highlighting the hazard ahead, moving in and out of the shoulder without signalling not fine, actively moving from the shoulder infront of cars moving to pass the cyclists very much not fine.

The ROTR offer no guidance for passing vehicles on the shoulder, however it does say
"hard shoulder, which is normally only for
pedestrians and cyclists. If a driver wants to allow a vehicle
behind them to overtake, they may pull in to the hard shoulder briefly as
long as no pedestrians or cyclists are already using it and no junctions or
entrances are nearby."
So the car and cyclist having moved to the shoulder I tried to pass, just as five cars ahead of me did and many more after me.

thegrayson

yop wrote: »

Halo in the post

Cheers, Yop, but I really am like this.

ashleey

http://www.crossrugbylegends.com/

Was it this cycle group?

thegrayson

Nope, they were finished by Friday according to their route plan.

RobertFoster

thegrayson wrote: »

I'll preface this by saying that I am a cyclist...

A lot of threads seem to start like that on this forum when complaining about groups of cyclists. It's like the cycling forum equivalent of the taximan's "I'm not a racist, but..." spiel.

I can understand the frustration of travelling behind an unpredictable vehicle weaving in and out. I don't know the road, but as it's an N road, was there not enough space to give them a wide berth by crossing the central line?

Dermot Illogical

OP I think you do have a bit of a point. The group should either use the shoulder or not. Taking the right of the shoulder and inside of the driving lane only results in attempts to overtake within the lane. It sends out mixed signals imho.
And some support vehicle driving can leave a bit to be desired at times. I've seen some silly stuff occasionally from them, so you may well have a point there too.
However... Anyone doing an overtake should really be out over the white line. Anything else is asking for a close call. Even if the 2 cyclists didn't veer out without looking, a crash within the group could produce similar results and you need to be well clear in your car as you overtake.
My 2c.

thegrayson

RT66 wrote: »

OP I think you do have a bit of a point. The group should either use the shoulder or not. Taking the right of the shoulder and inside of the driving lane only results in attempts to overtake within the lane. It sends out mixed signals imho.
And some support vehicle driving can leave a bit to be desired at times. I've seen some silly stuff occasionally from them, so you may well have a point there too.
However... Anyone doing an overtake should really be out over the white line. Anything else is asking for a close call. Even if the 2 cyclists didn't veer out without looking, a crash within the group could produce similar results and you need to be well clear in your car as you overtake.
My 2c.

Cheers, will bear it in mind next time I happen across a group.