The Lost Art of Seduction?

The Corinthian

I was discussing this with a female friend recently and we concluded that this has become somewhat of a dying art, if you want to call it as such.

Let me explain first what I mean by seduction. In the most concise terms, this is the convincing of another person into a (typically sexual but also often emotional) relationship that they would not be willing or interested in upon first meeting or normal circumstances.

The reasons why they may not be willing or interested vary wildly, of which some include:

• The seducer may not be their type and the seductee may not find them attractive.
• The seductee may already be in a relationship and/or married.
• The seductee may ordinarily rule the seducer out on the basis of social or cultural reasons (e.g. religion, social class, wealth).

The reason for the seducer seeking the relationship will also vary; sex, material gain or even 'genuine' motivations (e.g. 'winning over' the boy/girl of your dreams).

Ethically however, it does often appear questionable as it involves a calculated effort to manipulate the seductee (or 'sell yourself' depending upon you viewpoint), and can also go as far tactics such as entrapment.

Both women and men, straight and gay, can seduce or be seduced. Decline appears to be pretty much across the board.

Modern courtship (meeting someone in a bar, dating, etc), in that it rarely involves any barrier on the part of the seductree to be seduced, would be unlikely to qualify. Neither would the modern phenomenon of pick-up artists, as - from what I can see - it is little more than learning methodologies for improving your chances in the aforementioned modern courtship scenarios.

In (in particular but not limited to) Ireland what little seduction existed has been largely replaced by a curious game where two people pretty much know whether they're going to end up together or not and unless one of them says something particularly stupid along the way, it's just a process of drinking enough until they can blame the first move on alcohol.

Where barriers to a relationship do arise, there appears to be a trend nowadays to simply become friends in the passive hope that the other party breaks up with her/his boy/girlfriend or otherwise magically changes their mind.

So, is seduction dead, or in its death throws? What seduction is acceptable and what is not?

Piliger

Everyone who meets someone and acts to try to create a sexually orientated relationship is essentially seducing them. It's happening every day and night in every establishment in the world. The only dead thing is the use of the term itself.

The Corinthian

Piliger wrote: »

Everyone who meets someone and acts to try to create a sexually orientated relationship is essentially seducing them.

Not really. If you read the definition that I gave above, seduction also requires overcoming an initial rejection or barrier.

People may be forming sexual relationships in "every day and night in every establishment in the World", but let's be honest; most of the barriers that existed are gone - when two people meet in a bar nowadays, they largely know if sex at some future point is a possibility (note: not if it will happen, only if they are open to it happening at all) or not within moments.

And when one decides that it is not, there appears to no longer be any serious or competent attempt by the other to convince them otherwise - which would be seduction, or whatever other term you're looking for.

Viper_JB

This still happens all the time, I know plenty of people who started off as friends with no inclination towards a relationship and as they got to know each other, some times very well something more would develop. The picture may look and feel slightly different but it's not a lost art.

Kooli

I wouldn't be too worried if seduction (as defined in the OP) is dead.

I feel like it's some kind of fictional fantasy that belongs in movies and books - a common trope from rom-coms that one person (let's be honest, usually the woman), needs to be won over and persuaded.

Isn't it better these days when people just get together with the people they like?

If we can get rid of this notion of 'seduction', then women don't feel they have to 'play hard to get' to prolong this fake chase, and men don't feel they have to hassle or harrass women who have said no in some weird belief that relationships are supposed to start with a rejection.

Much easier for everyone if yes means yes, and no means no, and if a friendship later turns into a relationship that's brilliant, but I don't think that counts as seduction in this context.

ongarboy

Pilliger described it perfectly in a nutshell. OP - I think you are over analysing a fairly straight foward concept. I'm not saying that what you stated is incorrect but I think if I was trying to seduce someone and tried to even incorporate 5% of what you said into my modus operandi, the seductee would have long since moved onto another opportunity while I was still analysing what stage of the seduction I was supposed to be in.

There is no decline in seduction. It has perhaps evolved or is done differently in different cultures but it is being carried out all the time and I'm pretty certain the intention and the results are exactly the same everywhere.

PS - why use the word blame in relation to alcohol being a contributory factor in seduction. While being completely intoxicated allows errors of judgement to be made (beer goggles etc), a few drinks that relax and give you a little more courage to seduce/be seduced is not necessarily a bad thing imo. Sometimes people are not brave enough to flirt/seduce without a little dutch courage. I don't think I would have been so confident in approaching/flirting and yes (now that you mention it) seducing my partner the first time we met as complete strangers if I was stone cold sober. Maybe that is just an Irish thing...!

JimmyCrackCorn

Seduction is not a dieing art.

It is however an alien approach to a large proportion of the Irish.

Having recently fell in with a load of french guys, I learned that if I didn't make an effort id be left on my own while they chat up anything in walking distance.

The Corinthian

Kooli wrote: »

Isn't it better these days when people just get together with the people they like?

Ideal, certainly, but what happens if you meet someone you fall for and they may not be interested in you - at first?

We're not talking about a 'fake' chase here; the sort of thing you get when dating or meeting someone in a bar, where the outcome is all but decided as long as neither of you say or do anything particularly dumb. I mean a 'real' chase.

Do you simply move on? Plenty of fish, and all that Jazz? Or do you become their 'friend' and passively hang around, a shoulder to cry on, in the hope that at some stage she'll spontaneously change her mind and realize how wonderful you are?

It just seems there's very little effort any more in this regard. And before you suggest it, I don't mean stalking.

ongarboy wrote: »

PS - why use the word blame in relation to alcohol being a contributory factor in seduction.

I'm not blaming alcohol for any decline in seduction - if anything, the sexual revolution probably has done more in this regard because if one person is not immediately interested in you, you can easily move onto another. You can say the same of sex; if you want to abstain from sex, you're going to have difficulty finding someone to stay with you because it is too easy to find someone else who won't abstain. Supply and demand.

My comment on alcohol was more directed twoards Irish (and UK) culture; once you're an adult in Ireland, it is very much the exception rather than the rule that your first kiss with someone is stone-cold sober - a dependency that you don't get in continental Europe to the same extent (although even there, the culture of binge drinking is growing).

I swear, if prohibition was every introduced in Ireland, it would be akin to genocide.

JimmyCrackCorn wrote: »

Having recently fell in with a load of french guys, I learned that if I didn't make an effort id be left on my own while they chat up anything in walking distance.

Aye. It's a different mentality completely. However, having seen and even practised it, it does have it's dark side.

Anyone who'll talk about 'hot blooded' Latins clearly has no clue as there's rarely anything 'hot blooded' about it; more often than not it is meticulously premeditated, calculated and 'cold blooded' manipulation. And this is not simply limited to men, but women are typically just as ruthless.

karaokeman

The Corinthian wrote: »

Ideal, certainly, but what happens if you meet someone you fall for and they may not be interested in you - at first?

We're not talking about a 'fake' chase here; the sort of thing you get when dating or meeting someone in a bar, where the outcome is all but decided as long as neither of you say or do anything particularly dumb. I mean a 'real' chase.

Well when you meet someone in a bar or any other place, and become instantly attracted to them, its not really love is it? I've thought about this for many years, and it is entirely normal for a man to meet a woman and think she's beautiful, he would like a relationship with her etc before the man gets to know the woman all that well. I see this as lust, and its not real love, its a delusion, you become fooled by that person's good looks and their (initially) charming personality. I think women can see this and it turns them off, its like you are going out with the intention of meeting someone, which we know never works.

The Corinthian wrote: »

Do you simply move on? Plenty of fish, and all that Jazz? Or do you become their 'friend' and passively hang around, a shoulder to cry on, in the hope that at some stage she'll spontaneously change her mind and realize how wonderful you are?

It just seems there's very little effort any more in this regard. And before you suggest it, I don't mean stalking.

I do think moving on and realising there are plenty more fish in the sea at that stage is the best idea. I think if you want to be someone's friend you should just see it that way, from my experience girls can tell if you have hidden intentions to become anything more. I'm not implying stalking in any way but I think if you met that girl 'friend' in a bar giving off the impression you were looking for a relationship she will remember that and it might make her uncomfortable. Viper JB pointed out its not impossible for two people who were friends first to become a couple, and I'd probably agree with that to a certain extent, but only if both parties were comfortable with one another at first, and neither suspected the other was trying to make a move at a time the 'seduced' individual thought they weren't interested.

The key is not for either person to find the other attractive initially, but for the two to have good chemistry, to be comfortable with one another. You can have good chemistry with someone whether you are attracted to them or just like them as a friend, it is the driving force behind both friendships and relationships. If you don't have any chemistry with that person whether you find them attractive or not, nothing will ever develop.

The Corinthian wrote: »

I'm not blaming alcohol for any decline in seduction - if anything, the sexual revolution probably has done more in this regard because if one person is not immediately interested in you, you can easily move onto another. You can say the same of sex; if you want to abstain from sex, you're going to have difficulty finding someone to stay with you because it is too easy to find someone else who won't abstain. Supply and demand.

My comment on alcohol was more directed twoards Irish (and UK) culture; once you're an adult in Ireland, it is very much the exception rather than the rule that your first kiss with someone is stone-cold sober - a dependency that you don't get in continental Europe to the same extent (although even there, the culture of binge drinking is growing).

I've never heard of two people going into a relationship if their first kiss was a drunken one, tbh. May I ask what age defines adulthood in your opinion? There is usually an age when women are "done with dickheads", this may be for example when a woman outgrows one night stands (not sure if your post has anything to do with this, so correct me if I'm wrong) and starts wishing for a real relationship with genuine emotional bonding. I think alcohol takes away from this a good bit, it has only helped to a small extent if a man has one drink or two and it helps him to break the ice if he was initially shy of talking to women, but binge drinking ruins it if someone goes out just looking for women to get drunk with.

The Corinthian

karaokeman wrote: »

Well when you meet someone in a bar or any other place, and become instantly attracted to them, its not really love is it?

Sorry, did I suggest it was? Actually have I even mentioned love?

The key is not for either person to find the other attractive initially, but for the two to have good chemistry, to be comfortable with one another. You can have good chemistry with someone whether you are attracted to them or just like them as a friend, it is the driving force behind both friendships and relationships. If you don't have any chemistry with that person whether you find them attractive or not, nothing will ever develop.

OK, so if you don't have 'great chemistry' straight away, you give up and move on.

I've never heard of two people going into a relationship if their first kiss was a drunken one, tbh.

I did not say drunk, I said not stone-cold sober.

So people who meet in a bar, while out on the town, get a bit drunk, kiss, but then choose to see each other again doesn't happen? And when people date, they don't drink alcohol?

OK, maybe the younger generations are different.

karaokeman

The Corinthian wrote: »

Sorry, did I suggest it was? Actually have I even mentioned love?

My apologies, you're right you never mentioned the word love and I shouldn't have implied it. I was only drawing an analogy to say that people who meet "attractive" women in social settings may initially get on with them and subsequently try to seduce them, but then the woman turns out to be not the type of person the guy thought she was, and her looks were a factor in the guy thinking this would be a person he could try to win over. I have met women that I initially got along with, found attractive etc but then they turned out to be not so friendly. Either way there must be some element of sexual attraction between two people for one to engage in the act of seduction, but you're right its probably not love.

The Corinthian wrote: »

OK, so if you don't have 'great chemistry' straight away, you give up and move on.

Ok so maybe not when you first meet that person, but when you've got to know them a bit, I'd say there should ideally be even a small amount of chemistry for anything to develop.

The Corinthian wrote: »

I did not say drunk, I said not stone-cold sober.

Fair enough.

The Corinthian wrote: »

So people who meet in a bar, while out on the town, get a bit drunk, kiss, but then choose to see each other again doesn't happen? And when people date, they don't drink alcohol?

Ok thats a fair point too, I wasn't sure what age grouping your OP was referring to so I assumed you meant the younger age group who may be part of a binge drinking culture.

I never implied people dating don't drink alcohol, its only single men who go out looking for women anyway, if not it would be cheating.

Piliger

The Corinthian wrote: »

My comment on alcohol was more directed twoards Irish (and UK) culture; once you're an adult in Ireland, it is very much the exception rather than the rule that your first kiss with someone is stone-cold sober - a dependency that you don't get in continental Europe to the same extent (although even there, the culture of binge drinking is growing).

-

I swear, if prohibition was every introduced in Ireland, it would be akin to genocide.

-

Anyone who'll talk about 'hot blooded' Latins clearly has no clue as there's rarely anything 'hot blooded' about it; more often than not it is meticulously premeditated, calculated and 'cold blooded' manipulation. And this is not simply limited to men, but women are typically just as ruthless.

I am flabbergasted by the number of wild stereotypical preconceptions you appear to be burdened with.

The Corinthian

karaokeman wrote: »

Either way there must be some element of sexual attraction between two people for one to engage in the act of seduction, but you're right its probably not love.

Of course there is, but (possibly) only on one side - I say possibly because one person may initial reject a relationship with another for other reasons, such as religion, rather than attraction. One chap I met was initially rejected by his now wife on that basis (he's Christian, she's Muslim) and it took a year of his perusing her before he succeeded.

Ok so maybe not when you first meet that person, but when you've got to know them a bit, I'd say there should ideally be even a small amount of chemistry for anything to develop.

Maybe, but the impression I get is that the attitude in Ireland (and increasingly elsewhere) is to give up very quickly.

Perhaps if we get away from the term 'seduction' as it appears to be poisoning the debate somewhat, what I think I'm getting at is that there appears to be very little effort employed in the pursuit of someone you like any more. From what I can see, what little there is, is all terribly passive and anemic.

Piliger wrote: »

I am flabbergasted by the number of wild stereotypical preconceptions you appear to be burdened with.

Growing up in Ireland and then living abroad where things are done differently for a while will do that to you.

Sleepy

Just to throw this into the mix: we live far more urbanised lives than many of our ancestors and in a more heavily populated world where social barriers have largely disappeared and telecommunications have greatly expanded our social reach.

In the past, a persons potential pool of romantic partners was limited to the population of men/women in his/her locality. Social stratifications/religion would have reduced this number further. As such, might it be argued that people joined into less suitable partnerships than they might have had they lived in the modern world? With a more limited choice of partners, there's more pressure to settle or be left on the shelf and where one is having to convince a potential partner that they should settle for them, that's where the art of seduction had to be practised?

Morag

Hook up culture and the instant gratification ideals means that most young people would not put the effort in.