Learners and L plates

Lawless2k12

Tried to research the topic on google but there are so many different answers ranging from €80 euro to €1000 and from 1 to 5 penalty points so I was hoping that I may get more accurate answers in a new thread so here's the situation:

Friend of mine, 26, was caught by traffic corps. speeding but was unaccompanied on a learners permit with no "L" plates displayed so we were just wondering what would the expected fine be? If he's lucky will he just get away with the speeding ticket and if he's unlucky what's a very harsh fine?

Preferably someone with experience could give us an idea? So far its all guesses from people that don't really have a clue...

ABajaninCork

Lawless2k12 wrote: »

Tried to research the topic on google but there are so many different answers ranging from €80 euro to €1000 and from 1 to 5 penalty points so I was hoping that I may get more accurate answers in a new thread so here's the situation:

Friend of mine, 26, was caught by traffic corps. speeding but was unaccompanied on a learners permit with no "L" plates displayed so we were just wondering what would the expected fine be? If he's lucky will he just get away with the speeding ticket and if he's unlucky what's a very harsh fine?

Preferably someone with experience could give us an idea? So far its all guesses from people that don't really have a clue...

Hmmm. Let's see. Your friend's been caught:

• Speeding.
• Driving unaccompanied.
• No 'L' plates.

As I understand it, the traffic cops are a LOT more strict than the normal beat Gards. So I'm afraid your friend is likely to have the book thrown at him.

• Speeding will be a fine and points.
• Driving unaccompanied. Fine and points.
• No 'L' plates. Think new legislation has come in where points are given, but not sure it's come into effect yet. Certainly, it's a fine.

What did the cop say to your friend? Was he told he'd be summonsed??


Might be best to consult a solicitor TBH. And next time obey the law!!

Jimbob 83

I can totally understand a learner not displaying plates for afew months if they want to avoid notice as it makes perfect sense as its a big red arrow pointing at you and learners get alot of grief from the likes of onthephoneverybusygogogo bmw and audi drivers and the like

The way most Irish people drive i sometimes wonder if 3/4 of people should be displaying some form of warning plate

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

If you are caught for more than one offence at the same time, ie speeding whilst holding a mobile phone, I remember reading that you only get points for the first offence. So you would receive two penalty points (for the speeding) and two fines (speeding and holding phone)

ABajaninCork

Lawless2k12 wrote: »

Friend of mine, 26, was caught by traffic corps. speeding but was unaccompanied on a learners permit with no "L" plates displayed so we were just wondering what would the expected fine be? If he's lucky will he just get away with the speeding ticket and if he's unlucky what's a very harsh fine?

jar_of_coins wrote: »

If you are caught for more than one offence at the same time, ie speeding whilst holding a mobile phone, I remember reading that you only get points for the first offence. So you would receive two penalty points (for the speeding) and two fines (speeding and holding phone)

I've bolded where the OP says the offences were. His friend was caught for speeding, and driving unaccompanied with no 'L' plates displayed. Nowhere does the OP say he was holding a phone.

It might be a fine, points or both. We don't even know if the friend will be summonsed as I hear the traffic cops are stricter on applying the law than the beat Gards. Rather than trying to seek advice on an internet forum, the OP's friend might seek legal advice.

TJJP

Jimbob 83 wrote: »

the likes of onthephoneverybusygogogo bmw and audi drivers and the like

No, they don't. Most reasonably mature drivers give them space and opportunity. Well placed 'L' plates work to their advantage in that regard. Not having 'L' plates negates that opportunity.

corktina

ABajaninCork wrote: »

I've bolded where the OP says the offences were. His friend was caught for speeding, and driving unaccompanied with no 'L' plates displayed. Nowhere does the OP say he was holding a phone.

It might be a fine, points or both. We don't even know if the friend will be summonsed as I hear the traffic cops are stricter on applying the law than the beat Gards. Rather than trying to seek advice on an internet forum, the OP's friend might seek legal advice.

the point was that you only get the points for the biggest offense, you dont cop the total points for each offense.So, if you got done for no NCT and four bald tyres, you wouldnt get the points for the tyres, just 5 for no NCT (For example)

loobylou

Driving unaccompanied and failing to display L plates are not (as yet) penalty point offences, although there is a proposal with the minister to make driving unaccompanied one.
I believe the current fine on conviction for each of these offences is €1000 maximum.

Yawns

As has been pointed out, if you are stopped and are actually have found to make 2 or more offences that could lead to points, you can only be issued with 1 set of points. Typically you are hit with the highest set.

So let's imagine that the new proposal is brought into effect and it means a €60 fine and 1 penalty point for unaccompanied L drivers. Also 1 penalty point and €60 for no L plates. 2 Penalty points and €80 fine for speeding.

The most points in the above scenario given would be 2. The highest is for the speeding so that is what he would be given. The fines would be combined still afaik so you could pay €200.

That is how it goes as far as I know. I have no fines or penalty points to date ( touches wood ) so no actual personal experience.


I've prob jinxed myself now tho.

readytosnap

Jimbob 83 wrote: »

The way most Irish people drive i sometimes wonder if 3/4 of people should be displaying some form of warning plate

yeah they are called "L" plates.

Mr Simpson

Just to clarify, you can be given points for any offence you commit, not just one at a time. If you are pulled over and have commited a range of offences, you could be given 12 points there and then. (edit: as it turns out, this is not correct)

Speeding = 2 points & a fine

No L plates= Summons = No points & up to €1000 fine

Driving unaccompanied = Summons = No points & up to €1000 fine.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

mmcn90 wrote: »

Just to clarify, you can be given points for any offence you commit, not just one at a time. If you are pulled over and have commited a range of offences, you could be given 12 points there and then.

Speeding = 2 points & a fine

No L plates= Summons = No points & up to €1000 fine

Driving unaccompanied = Summons = No points & up to €1000 fine.

This is 100% incorrect.

leeomurchu

Here's a list of offences http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Licensed%20Drivers/Penalty%20Points%20Chart1.pdf

Did the Garda say if he was goin to fine him for all the offences he committed or just for the speeding.

A friend of mine was caught speeding about 135 on a 120 by the Garda traffic corps. He was an L driver (no plates) and no supervision pretty much the same as your mate.

Anyway someone was looking down on him that days as all he got was a fine for speeding and a couple of points.

Mr Simpson

jar_of_coins wrote: »

mmcn90 wrote: »

Just to clarify, you can be given points for any offence you commit, not just one at a time. If you are pulled over and have commited a range of offences, you could be given 12 points there and then.

Speeding = 2 points & a fine

No L plates= Summons = No points & up to €1000 fine

Driving unaccompanied = Summons = No points & up to €1000 fine.

This is 100% incorrect.

Show me where in the Road Traffic Act it says you can only be prosecuted for one offence at a time.

Aint Eazy Being Cheezy

Fair point, Im on my phone so I can't link right now. But I will. In the meantime feel free to post the link to back up your statement.

Mr Simpson

jar_of_coins wrote: »

Fair point, Im on my phone so I can't link right now. But I will. In the meantime feel free to post the link to back up your statement.

I can't back it up, as my statement says a law doesn't exist, it is therefore not on paper.

Red Crow

I'd nearly expect a summons. More and more people are being summoned for having no 'L' plates or driving unaccompanied.

TestTransmission

mmcn90 wrote: »

Just to clarify, you can be given points for any offence you commit, not just one at a time. If you are pulled over and have commited a range of offences, you could be given 12 points there and then.

mmcn90 wrote: »

Show me where in the Road Traffic Act it says you can only be prosecuted for one offence at a time.

mmcn90 wrote: »

I can't back it up, as my statement says a law doesn't exist, it is therefore not on paper.

I've highlighted the important bit , I'm open to correction though.

(3) (a) Where a person, whether on the same occasion or not—


(i) makes 2 or more payments referred to in subsection (1) in respect of alleged penalty point offences committed on the same occasion, or


(ii) is convicted of 2 or more penalty point offences committed on the same occasion,


penalty points in respect of one only of the alleged offences or offences, determined, where appropriate, in accordance with subsection (4), shall be endorsed on the entry relating to the person.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2002/en/act/pub/0012/sec0002.html

Mr Simpson

Thanks for that link. I'm happy to hold my hands up and say I was wrong. That seems very strange though.

Mikros

mmcn90 wrote: »

Show me where in the Road Traffic Act it says you can only be prosecuted for one offence at a time.

Well your right in that you can be prosecuted for as many offences as you commit. But a fixed charge notice is not a prosecution, it is an "administrative charge" as an alternative to prosecution. And under the Road Traffic Act 2002, Section 2, Subsection 3

(b) Where a person, whether on the same occasion or not, makes one or more payments referred to in subsection (1) and is convicted of one or more penalty point offences and the alleged penalty point offences concerned and the penalty point offences were committed on the same occasion, penalty points in respect only of any one of the alleged offences and offences, determined in accordance with subsection (4), shall be endorsed on the entry relating to the person.

Basically only the highest value penalty point offence gets recorded on your licence for multiple offences disclosed at once.

Driving unaccompanied and driving without L plates are not currently penalty point offences (though there may be plans to make it so). So the above section doesn't apply in the OP's case. If the Guard decides to prosecute the learner driver offences you can expect a summons and court appearance.

djimi

mmcn90 wrote: »

Thanks for that link. I'm happy to hold my hands up and say I was wrong. That seems very strange though.

It is the most ridiculous law really. If you commit two points offenses then you should get two lots of points; the idea of only being punished for one of the offenses is laughable.

corktina

no it isnt...if you committed 4 murders, you would get 4 life sentances running at the same time, not one after the other....there is a certain logic in it

TimeToShine

i think it's up to a 3000e fine for not having a license, being unaccompanied and no L plates. 1000e for having L plates and but being unaccompanied. he'll be going to court most likely, the fines get reduced very often though.

djimi

corktina wrote: »

no it isnt...if you committed 4 murders, you would get 4 life sentances running at the same time, not one after the other....there is a certain logic in it

Im not really sure that penalty points are comparable to a custodial sentence, but I suppose I see where you are coming from. Still doesnt make a lot of sense though; they are effectively saying to people that they can commit as many motor offenses as they like, but so long as they get caught doing them all at once they will only be punished for one of them. If someone is caught committing enough offenses to rack up 12 points at once then they should be off the road; not let off on their merry way with a couple of points and a (large) fine.

Lawless2k12

The Guard that stopped him said he would be contacted during the week about the unaccompanied driving and L plates. He didn't actually say for definate if he would be up in court... He's more afraid of losing his licence at the moment as he has heard that getting 6 points will put him off the road?

challengemaster

Lawless2k12 wrote: »

The Guard that stopped him said he would be contacted during the week about the unaccompanied driving and L plates. He didn't actually say for definate if he would be up in court... He's more afraid of losing his licence at the moment as he has heard that getting 6 points will put him off the road?

You can be sure he won't think he's above driving laws relating to learners next time around so.

Maggie 2

mmcn90 wrote: »

Just to clarify, you can be given points for any offence you commit, not just one at a time. If you are pulled over and have commited a range of offences, you could be given 12 points there and then. (edit: as it turns out, this is not correct)

Speeding = 2 points & a fine

No L plates= Summons = No points & up to €1000 fine

Driving unaccompanied = Summons = No points & up to €1000 fine.

Not correct, you can now get points for driving unaccompanied.

Under the new system, which is being finalised by Transport Minister Leo Varadkar, unaccompanied drivers will receive one penalty point and a fine of €80, or three points if they appeal and lose in their case court where they will also face a fine of up to €1,000.

Mycroft H

Maggie 2 wrote: »

Not correct, you can now get points for driving unaccompanied.

Under the new system, which is being finalised by Transport Minister Leo Varadkar, unaccompanied drivers will receive one penalty point and a fine of €80, or three points if they appeal and lose in their case court where they will also face a fine of up to €1,000.

Not so Maggie, it's not in the statute books yet, therefore it's not law yet. Charged under the old system as the law stands now.

pah

The offence which is commited for being "unacompanied" is for having No Driving Licence A condition of the Learner Permit/Provisional is that you have a fully licenced driver with you, failure to adhere to this renders the licence null and void. Learners are prosecuted for having no licence.

Alanstrainor

pah wrote: »

The offence which is commited for being "unacompanied" is for having No Driving Licence A condition of the Learner Permit/Provisional is that you have a fully licenced driver with you, failure to adhere to this renders the licence null and void. Learners are prosecuted for having no licence.

Source for this pearl of wisdom please?

pah

Alanstrainor wrote: »

Source for this pearl of wisdom please?

Aside from personally prosecuting offenders in this manner?

Section 38 RTA 1961

Prohibition on driving without driving licence.

38.—(1) A person shall not drive a mechanically propelled vehicle in a public place unless he holds a driving licence for the time being having effect and licensing him to drive the vehicle.

(2) (a) A person who contravenes subsection (1) of this section shall be guilty of an offence.

(b) In a prosecution for an offence under this subsection, it shall be presumed, until the contrary is shown by the defendant, that he did not, at the time he drove the vehicle, hold a driving licence then having effect and licensing him to drive the vehicle.

(3) The owner of a mechanically propelled vehicle shall not employ a person to drive the vehicle in a public place unless the person holds a driving licence for the time being having effect and licensing him to drive the vehicle.

(4) (a) A person who contravenes subsection (3) of this section shall be guilty of an offence.

(b) In a prosecution for an offence under this subsection, it shall be presumed, until the contrary is shown by the defendant, that the person employed to drive the vehicle did not, at the time he drove the vehicle, hold a driving licence then having effect and licensing him to drive the vehicle.

djimi

Maggie 2 wrote: »

Not correct, you can now get points for driving unaccompanied.

Under the new system, which is being finalised by Transport Minister Leo Varadkar, unaccompanied drivers will receive one penalty point and a fine of €80, or three points if they appeal and lose in their case court where they will also face a fine of up to €1,000.

1 point and an €80 fine is a joke. Take their learners permit off them for a year and see how many learners think its okay to carry on as if they are fully licensed in future.

The law needs to be changed in an effort to drill it into learners that they are not fully licenced drivers and have no right to think that they can behave as such.

_Kaiser_

pah wrote: »

Aside from personally prosecuting offenders in this manner?

Section 38 RTA 1961

I don't see anything in there about no accompanying driver = no license

But then it does date from 1961 so like much of our legislation is woefully out of date and thus open to interpretation - ergo the "it depends who you get on the day" phenomenon that characterises the Irish justice/enforcement system.

pah

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

pah wrote: »

Aside from personally prosecuting offenders in this manner?

Section 38 RTA 1961

I don't see anything in there about no accompanying driver = no license

But then it does date from 1961 so like much of our legislation is woefully out of date and thus open to interpretation - ergo the "it depends who you get on the day" phenomenon that characterises the Irish justice/enforcement system.

True. I imagine that is why there is talk of new legislation. There is no offence currently for driving while unaccompanied iirc which is why sec38 was used.

Haven't had one of these in court for over a year though.

_Kaiser_

pah wrote: »

True. I imagine that is why there is talk of new legislation. There is no offence currently for driving while unaccompanied iirc which is why sec38 was used.

Haven't had one of these in court for over a year though.

So let me get the straight... you've said above that you have prosecuted people for driving unaccompanied using a section of legislation that now by your own admission here doesn't actually apply because the "offence" in question isn't actually an offence?

How does that work exactly?

Bohrio

pah wrote: »

True. I imagine that is why there is talk of new legislation. There is no offence currently for driving while unaccompanied iirc which is why sec38 was used.

Haven't had one of these in court for over a year though.

Seriously? this country is a joke sometimes...

Can't believe that you can drive a car without a full license... that explains lots of things... all you have to do is take a written test and voila... only in Ireland

pah

Its quite simple really.

There is no offence under the road traffic act for "driving unaccompanied"

There is an offence of "no driving licence" which applies when the driver of a vehicle does not have a valid licence covering them to drive at the time. No fully qualified driver means no valid licence.

_Kaiser_

pah wrote: »

Its quite simple really.

There is no offence under the road traffic act for "driving unaccompanied"

There is an offence of "no driving licence" which applies when the driver of a vehicle does not have a valid licence covering them to drive at the time. No fully qualified driver means no valid licence.

But can you point me to the legally enforceable piece of legislation that says that?

monkeypants

jar_of_coins wrote: »

If you are caught for more than one offence at the same time...I remember reading that you only get points for the first offence.

Can anyone explain what the logic behind this is? I ask because concurrent sentencing works so well for other crimes. :rolleyes:

pippip

monkeypants wrote: »

Can anyone explain what the logic behind this is? I ask because concurrent sentencing works so well for other crimes. :rolleyes:

I presume its so you can learn from your mistakes and don't get banned in one go.

Redtop

Your friend should also check his/her Insurance policy as they may not be covered in the event of an accident without an experienced driver in the car with them. If the insurance company found out the Learner Driver was unaccompanied, then they could use this to avoid paying out. It's just not worth the risk.

Yawns

Well that's just a load of balls. They can't refuse to payout to a 3rd party and learners generally learn in older cars and try to get cheaper insurance so usually take 3rd party, fire & theft policies.

By your logic if you speed or run a red light your insurance is void in an accident.


The worst the insurance could do in a case is pay the 3rd party and take the policy holder to court for the amount paid for breaking t&c's etc. But it would cost far far more to go to court generally so they don't bother.

Mr Simpson

Yawns wrote: »

Well that's just a load of balls. They can't refuse to payout to a 3rd party and learners generally learn in older cars and try to get cheaper insurance so usually take 3rd party, fire & theft policies.

By your logic if you speed or run a red light your insurance is void in an accident.


The worst the insurance could do in a case is pay the 3rd party and take the policy holder to court for the amount paid for breaking t&c's etc. But it would cost far far more to go to court generally so they don't bother.

There may be one exception to this, Aviva offer free accompanied driver insurance to their driving school pupils, this clearly states that if they are not accompanied by the policy holder or a named driver, the policy will be deemed invalid.

Yawns

From what I can gather that free accompanied driver is that a person must have a insurance policy with Aviva. Then a learner may be added to that policy for the free accompanied driver. It means that person gets 6 months free as a named driver under which they have to have an accompanied driver. In the case of an accident where the driver was unaccompanied aviva will still pay out on the policy for the main policyholder.

So basically it's still balls. There is no case where an insurance company cannot pay out to a 3rd party in the event of an accident, where liability is decided. They can recoup costs if they think it's worth doing so financially, but they must pay out to the 3rd party anyway. So when you take out insurance, you are insured for 3rd parties regardless if you speed, drink drive or drive unaccompanied as a learner. No ifs or buts about it.

Mr Simpson

I'm just saying what their t&c's say. The accompanied driver isn't added to the insurance cert like a named driver usually is. The letter is pretty clear in saying that the policy is null and void if the driver is unaccompanied. It also says that if the accompanied driver makes a claim, it won't affect the policy holders no claims.

Markcheese

Getting back to the op's original post... It's odd the Garda didn't give him a ticket even just for the speeding part.... Is it at the garda's discretion whether he issues a ticket or a summons ...

Mr Simpson

Markcheese wrote: »

Getting back to the op's original post... It's odd the Garda didn't give him a ticket even just for the speeding part.... Is it at the garda's discretion whether he issues a ticket or a summons ...

Afaik, the Gardai dont issue tickets at the roadside anymore. Its all processed then sent by post. Not 100% sure on this.

Yawns

mmcn90 wrote: »

I'm just saying what their t&c's say. The accompanied driver isn't added to the insurance cert like a named driver usually is. The letter is pretty clear in saying that the policy is null and void if the driver is unaccompanied. It also says that if the accompanied driver makes a claim, it won't affect the policy holders no claims.

From Aviva's website:

Free accompanied driver cover offer

Accompanied driver cover is only available on an existing Aviva private car insurance policy and to Aviva Driving School customers who purchase a package of 10 or 13 driving lessons and have completed at least one lesson when the Aviva policyholder applies on behalf of the pupil. When a pupil has availed of accompanied driver cover, no refund is available for unused or cancelled lessons from the original package of lessons purchased. A policyholder who wishes to add a pupil from our Driving School to their policy must apply for accompanied driver cover either through the Aviva call centre or their branch, as this cover is not automatically included when a lesson course is purchased.

I've highlighted the bold bits. Basically if the 'pupil' was involved in a crash and was driving alone, Aviva will still have to pay out, but it will affect the main policy holder. Which would have happened regardless. This free driver cover is just a marketing ploy by Aviva to get people to sign up to lessons with them. We'll give you 6 months free named driver on someone's aviva policy if you buy lessons from us is what it really reads as.



If an accident occurs then it's treated as a normal policy with a named driver. The main policyholder gets screwed. It's their policy at the end of the day. Aviva just have a marketing gimmick for selling lessons, the insurance aspect side in relations to accidents is the same as every other insurance company.

Mr Simpson

Heres the exact wording from a policy I have sitting in front of me though.

"Unless we must do so under the Road Traffic Act," if the pupil is driving without:

A. A full EU licence holder, held for two years, named on the Certificate of Insurance

B. An Aviva Driving Instructor

C. An official driving examiner

We will not pay in the event of a claim.

This is their exact words, and that to me says they wont pay out, unless their is a section of the RTA which forces them to (I cant think of one)

Yawns

AFAIK there is a provision in the RTA, 1961 that means they have to pay to a 3rd party. They do not have to pay out on a fully comp to have the policyholders car fixed. They do for 3rd party.

(b) if the insurer has issued to the specified person a policy such as is described in the certificate, but the actual terms of the policy are less favourable to persons claiming under or by virtue of the policy against the insurer, either directly or through the specified person, than the particulars of the policy as stated in the certificate, the policy shall, as between the insurer and any other person except the specified person, be deemed to be in terms conforming in all respects with those particulars.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1961/en/act/pub/0024/sec0067.html#sec67

So they insurance company must pay out to a 3rd party as the 3rd party will be deemed as having conformed to the terms and conditions just by simply being a 3rd party. As we know Irish law trumps local company t&c's

If you wish to drive on the roads you need at least 3rd party cover so all insurance policies must be paid out to 3rd parties at least in any accident. They can they try recoup costs if they wish.

pah

Kaiser2000 wrote: »

pah wrote: »

Its quite simple really.

There is no offence under the road traffic act for "driving unaccompanied"

There is an offence of "no driving licence" which applies when the driver of a vehicle does not have a valid licence covering them to drive at the time. No fully qualified driver means no valid licence.

But can you point me to the legally enforceable piece of legislation that says that?

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/2007/en/si/0719.html

The holder of a provisional licence must comply with the conditions set out in paragraph (b) relating to the category of vehicle which he or she is provisionally licensed to drive.