Tenant from hell

Indiansun

Hi guys. Have nightmare tenant's who are literally only in property few weeks. Their in breach of a number of conditions of the contract. Gave a months notice & they won't get out. Any advice next step as I can't afford to pay for this property & the damage which will be caused due to there irresponsible behaviour. Added pressure of complaints from neighbours. Do they only gain all the rights when in more than 6 months. As in - can I change locks & throw them out. I've heard prtb is a extremely long process - they've lodged a dispute

whippet

Indiansun wrote: »

Hi guys. Have nightmare tenant's who are literally only in property few weeks. Their in breach of a number of conditions of the contract. Gave a months notice & they won't get out. Any advice next step as I can't afford to pay for this property & the damage which will be caused due to there irresponsible behaviour. Added pressure of complaints from neighbours. Do they only gain all the rights when in more than 6 months. As in - can I change locks & throw them out. I've heard prtb is a extremely long process - they've lodged a dispute

welcome to the world of landlords .. all the cards are stacked in the tenants favour and the process defined and long.

After you issue the 28 days notice the tenants will either leave or lodge a dispute with the PRTB (I am assuming that you have registered the tenancy with the PRTB) and after a process of about 6 months you will get a hearing and they will make a determination.

Should you have followed the process properly (read up on this) the PRTB will make a determination that the tenants will have to leave. If after 28 days they still don't leave you will have to apply to the circurt court to get a judgment and employ the services of the sherriff to evict.

From start to finish you are looking at about 8-10 months of a process.

However, you might be lucky any they might leave.

Also, should you disconnect services, change locks, enter the property un-invited or in anyway do anything which might be construed by a very biased PRTB as intimidation prepare yourself for the possibility of a very large fine.


I nearly had a very similar situation recently and had to actually pay the tenants to get out at the 28 day stage.

What I have outlined is not what you probably want to hear but it is the reality

Monty Burnz

Indiansun wrote: »

Hi guys. Have nightmare tenant's who are literally only in property few weeks. Their in breach of a number of conditions of the contract. Gave a months notice & they won't get out. Any advice next step as I can't afford to pay for this property & the damage which will be caused due to there irresponsible behaviour. Added pressure of complaints from neighbours. Do they only gain all the rights when in more than 6 months. As in - can I change locks & throw them out. I've heard prtb is a extremely long process - they've lodged a dispute

I don't mean to take this thread O/T, but I have massive sympathy for your situation. It's great that there are good protections in place for tenants these days, but it is ridiculous that landlords now find themselves in these situations. Where is their protection?

And without this protection, tenants also suffer because fewer people will take the risk of being landlords, people will invest less in their properties (lowering the standards of available accommodation), and rents will be higher to allow for the risk of getting scum for tenants.

odds_on

whippet wrote: »

welcome to the world of landlords .. all the cards are stacked in the tenants favour and the process defined and long.

After you issue the 28 days notice the tenants will either leave or lodge a dispute with the PRTB (I am assuming that you have registered the tenancy with the PRTB) and after a process of about 6 months you will get a hearing and they will make a determination.

Should you have followed the process properly (read up on this) the PRTB will make a determination that the tenants will have to leave. If after 28 days they still don't leave you will have to apply to the circurt court to get a judgment and employ the services of the sherriff to evict.

From start to finish you are looking at about 8-10 months of a process.

However, you might be lucky any they might leave.

Also, should you disconnect services, change locks, enter the property un-invited or in anyway do anything which might be construed by a very biased PRTB as intimidation prepare yourself for the possibility of a very large fine.


I nearly had a very similar situation recently and had to actually pay the tenants to get out at the 28 day stage.

What I have outlined is not what you probably want to hear but it is the reality

While I agree with virtually all that whippet has said, you must first issue a warning/advice not to the tenants stating the breaches and asking them to remedy same within x days (usually 7 to 14, depending on the seriousness and if there is a financial loss).

In the case of serious anti-social behaviour (having advised the tenant) you can evict them with 7 days notice. For "serious" see the RTA 2004.

Gasherbraun

I have been mananging tenancies for years (here and UK) and never seen a 7 days termination for extreme anti social behaviour used let alone be successful. Maybe I have been lucky with tenants....

odds_on refers to the RTA and its definition of what constitutes 'serious' but the following is a good explanation in clear English.

Landlords can only terminate a tenancy on the grounds of anti-social behaviour by giving a mere seven days notice if the tenant’s behaviour constitutes behaviour that comes within Section 17 (a) and /or (b) of the 2004 Act. Section 17 (a) comprises behaviour that constitutes the commission of an offence and that is likely to affect directly the well-being or welfare of others and Section 17 (b) applies if the tenant’s behaviour causes or could cause fear, danger, injury, damage or loss to any other person living, working or otherwise lawfully in the property or its vicinity, including violence, intimidation and threats.

I would define it still further as actual violence or serious threat of actual violence. This would still need to be witnessed.

To be honest successful terminations even for 'normal' anti social behaviour are rare and hard to operate successfully and we find that normally there are rent arrears in conjunction with anti social behaviour and this is an easier route to terminate since rent arrears are evidential.

anto9

Cut off all services ,and make their lives hell in any way you can .( to hell with any fines ,just dont pay them ) .I would just face them head to head and threaten them with violence which i would back up if necessary but i know thats over the top .

AS a former Ladlord in Dublin ,now living abroad ,you have got to stand up to scum and not give them an inch .I sorted problems out myself without going to any soft authority .My best tennants in Dublin were Chinese Students .Lovely people .My problems were with Irish natives .

PS,If anyone does bad to my wife ,daughter ,or my personal property then the gloves are off .

odds_on

anto9 wrote: »

Cut off all services ,and make their lives hell in any way you can .( to hell with any fines ,just dont pay them ) .I would just face them head to head and threaten them with violence which i would back up if necessary but i know thats over the top .

AS a former Ladlord in Dublin ,now living abroad ,you have got to stand up to scum and not give them an inch .I sorted problems out myself without going to any soft authority .My best tennants in Dublin were Chinese Students .Lovely people .My problems were with Irish natives .

PS,If anyone does bad to my wife ,daughter ,or my personal property then the gloves are off .

And therefore risk fines in the thousands of euros by way of damages awarded to the tenant. Very often these types of tenants know what they are doing, how far they can go and will know of what to claim damages for - known in the UK as "professional tenants".

Monty Burnz

odds_on wrote: »

And therefore risk fines in the thousands of euros by way of damages awarded to the tenant. Very often these types of tenants know what they are doing, how far they can go and will know of what to claim damages for - known in the UK as "professional tenants".

I wonder could landlords create a register of these scumbags with documentary evidence of what they have done? It might stop a lot of this behaviour if they knew after trashing a couple of places they'd be more-or-less obliged to live on the streets/B&Bs.

freyners

Monty Burnz wrote: »

I wonder could landlords create a register of these scumbags with documentary evidence of what they have done? It might stop a lot of this behaviour if they knew after trashing a couple of places they'd be more-or-less obliged to live on the streets/B&Bs.

if this was legal surely someone would have done so by now???

It would be brilliant for all sides if it was done and managed property

odds_on

Gasherbraun wrote: »

I have been mananging tenancies for years (here and UK) and never seen a 7 days termination for extreme anti social behaviour used let alone be successful. Maybe I have been lucky with tenants....

odds_on refers to the RTA and its definition of what constitutes 'serious' but the following is a good explanation in clear English.

Landlords can only terminate a tenancy on the grounds of anti-social behaviour by giving a mere seven days notice if the tenant’s behaviour constitutes behaviour that comes within Section 17 (a) and /or (b) of the 2004 Act. Section 17 (a) comprises behaviour that constitutes the commission of an offence and that is likely to affect directly the well-being or welfare of others and Section 17 (b) applies if the tenant’s behaviour causes or could cause fear, danger, injury, damage or loss to any other person living, working or otherwise lawfully in the property or its vicinity, including violence, intimidation and threats.

I would define it still further as actual violence or serious threat of actual violence. This would still need to be witnessed.

To be honest successful terminations even for 'normal' anti social behaviour are rare and hard to operate successfully and we find that normally there are rent arrears in conjunction with anti social behaviour and this is an easier route to terminate since rent arrears are evidential.

PRTB Determination Order DR1076/2009
1. The Notice of Termination served by the Applicant Landlord on the Respondent Tenant, on 9 September 2009, is valid.
2. The Respondent Tenant and all persons residing in the above dwelling shall vacate the dwelling within 7 days of the date of issue of this Order.
3. The Respondent Tenant shall pay the sum of € 7,018.98 to the Applicant Landlord within 14 days of the date of issue of this Order, being arrears of rent of € 5,068.98, up to 30 October 2009, and damages of € 3,000 for breaches of section 16(a)(i) and 16 (h) of the Residential Tenancies Act, 2004, having taken into account the retained security deposit of € 1,050.00,
4. The Respondent Tenant shall continue to pay any further rent outstanding from 30 October 2009, at the rate of € 31.29 per day, unless lawfully varied, and any other charge as set out in the terms of the tenancy agreement for each month or part thereof, until such time as he vacates the above dwelling.

Section 16 (h) not behave within the dwelling, or in the vicinity of it, in a
way that is anti-social or allow other occupiers of, or visitors to, the dwelling to behave within it, or in the vicinity of it, in such a way,

PRTB Determination Order DR198/2008
− The Respondent Landlord shall issue a 7 Day Notice of Termination pursuant to Section 67 (2) (a) of the Residential Tenancies Act, in respect of the tenancy of the dwelling at xxxxxxx.

− The Respondent Landlord is recommended to send a letter to the Tenants of the dwelling of the above premises setting out a complaint by a Third Party of the Landlords failure to enforce the tenant’s obligation not to engage in Anti-Social Behaviour, as set out by the Private Residential Tenancies Board.

Monty Burnz

freyners wrote: »

if this was legal surely someone would have done so by now???

If it was legal, you would still need someone to set up and administer it. It can be done with credit records, so I don't really see why you couldn't do it with rental records.

Indiansun

Tnks guys 4 all the comments. I just hit them with the 28 days notice to get out, didn't do the warnings etc , didn't think I had too. I dont want to mediate - i just want these out. I know the prtb is a long & drawn out painful experience. Will prtb rule that I start the process again. & while their still in property with the non speed of prtb - does that mean they automatically gain all the extra rights after 6months in - as in staying for 4 yrs. I just want these people out b4 the house is in bits. Any1 know what kinda fines an illegal eviction is getting ? As no rent during the whole dispute plus all the damage to put right! These ****ers get away with fines as uve no way of getting it out of them. The free legal aid they get plus no charge to lodge a dispute - means an "I'll have a go" attittude from this kind of scum

whippet

Indiansun wrote: »

Tnks guys 4 all the comments. I just hit them with the 28 days notice to get out, didn't do the warnings etc , didn't think I had too. I dont want to mediate - i just want these out. I know the prtb is a long & drawn out painful experience. Will prtb rule that I start the process again. & while their still in property with the non speed of prtb - does that mean they automatically gain all the extra rights after 6months in - as in staying for 4 yrs. I just want these people out b4 the house is in bits. Any1 know what kinda fines an illegal eviction is getting ? As no rent during the whole dispute plus all the damage to put right! These ****ers get away with fines as uve no way of getting it out of them. The free legal aid they get plus no charge to lodge a dispute - means an "I'll have a go" attittude from this kind of scum

From what I have heard the fine is about €10k per tenant for an illegal eviction ....

odds_on

Indiansun wrote: »

Tnks guys 4 all the comments. I just hit them with the 28 days notice to get out, didn't do the warnings etc , didn't think I had too. I dont want to mediate - i just want these out. I know the prtb is a long & drawn out painful experience. Will prtb rule that I start the process again. & while their still in property with the non speed of prtb - does that mean they automatically gain all the extra rights after 6months in - as in staying for 4 yrs. I just want these people out b4 the house is in bits. Any1 know what kinda fines an illegal eviction is getting ? As no rent during the whole dispute plus all the damage to put right! These ****ers get away with fines as uve no way of getting it out of them. The free legal aid they get plus no charge to lodge a dispute - means an "I'll have a go" attittude from this kind of scum

OP, go ahead and evict your tenants illegally - you might get into the records for the highest award to a tenant for illegal eviction.
Did you do a vetting check on the tenants?

There is a sample notice of termination, with help notes, on the PRTB website.

If you have not done any notices as required by law your "28 days notice to get out" will be invalid especially as you "didn't do the warnings etc".

"didn't think I had too." As a landlord, you are supposed to know the laws appertaining to the business and also be a responsible professional person. While I have full sympathy with your situation, to avoid large fines in damages, you MUST follow the law in evicting tenants. In the eyes of the law, ignorance of the law is no excuse.

DR 1124/ 2011
1. The Notices of Termination served by the Respondent Landlord on the Applicant Tenants, in respect of the tenancy of the dwelling xxxxxxx, are invalid;

2. The Respondent Landlord shall pay the total sum of €11,000.00 to the Applicant Tenants, being a payment of €5,500.00 to each Applicant Tenant, within 21 days of the date of issue of this Order, being damages of €13,900 for the Respondent Landlord’s breach of his obligations under the Act and for the illegal eviction of the Applicant Tenants, having deducted the sum of €2,900.00 rent arrears having taken into account the deposit of €250.00, in respect of the tenancy of the above dwelling.

Ref: DR 1888 / 2010
1. The Applicant Tenant’s application, regarding illegal eviction, in respect of the tenancy of the dwelling xxxxxxxxxxx is upheld;

2. The Respondent Landlord shall deliver all goods of the Applicant Tenant to a nominated address giving 2 day’s notice of such delivery, within 14 days of the date of issue of this Order;

3. The Respondent Landlord shall pay the total sum of €11,000.00 to the Applicant Tenant, within 21 days of the date of issue of this Order, being damages for hardship and inconvenience caused to the Applicant Tenant, in respect of the tenancy of the above dwelling;

4. The Respondent Landlord’s claim, regarding damages for the expense incurred in removing the Applicant Tenant’s belongings, in respect of the tenancy of the above dwelling, is not upheld;

5. Rent is deemed paid under clause 6 of the Letting Agreement and no further rent is payable by the Applicant Tenant.

This Order was made by the Private Residential Tenancies Board on 9 November 2011.

the_syco

Indiansun wrote: »

does that mean they automatically gain all the extra rights after 6months in - as in staying for 4 yrs.

Two things;
Ring threshold, and ask "as a tenant" if "you" get Part Four rights if "you" stay in the apartment for 6 months even if "you" stop paying rent, and see what they say, imo. But I doubt it.

peter_dublin

Word of advise, stop your plans for the eviction, and follow the procedure of the PTRB to the letter even if it means starting the process again, I was in a unit today that was distroyed by the tenents, no woodwork left, used for kindling, all doors smashed in, burns everywhere. Last thing you want is a destoyed unit and a bill for 10k per tenent. Tenant owed 1000s in backrent, was on a prepay esb meter while having the full upc package, crazy stuff.

odds_on

the_syco wrote: »

Two things;
Ring threshold, and ask "as a tenant" if "you" get Part Four rights if "you" stay in the apartment for 6 months even if "you" stop paying rent, and see what they say, imo. But I doubt it.

No need to check with Threshold. The RTA 2004 states that if a valid notice of termination (even if it has been withdrawn) has been issued before the end of the first six months, then Part 4 rights are not acquired by the tenant.

However, I stress "valid". There are many instances where the NoT issued has not been valid due to not conforming with the prescribed requirements and many landlords have been awarded damages against them for issuing an invalid NoT, even if the LL believed it was valid. Ignorance of the law is no excuse. I should add, that on a few occasions, a tenant who has failed to issue a valid Notice of Termination when leaving has had damages awarded against them.

I definitely agree with Peter Dublin, restart the eviction process and make sure it is absolutely correct. Surely you do not want to incur damages awarded to the tenant on top of the damage to your property.

Monty Burnz

peter_dublin wrote: »

Word of advise, stop your plans for the eviction, and follow the procedure of the PTRB to the letter even if it means starting the process again, I was in a unit today that was distroyed by the tenents, no woodwork left, used for kindling, all doors smashed in, burns everywhere. Last thing you want is a destoyed unit and a bill for 10k per tenent. Tenant owed 1000s in backrent, was on a prepay esb meter while having the full upc package, crazy stuff.

Another advert for the existence of a tenant's registry.

Indiansun

Tnks again guys , I'm doing nothing foolish, Getting legal advise & looking at it from all angles b4 taking any action. In answering the question - did I get references? YES from A very reputable letting agency !! Im totally in favour that the tenant needs to have rights and up to now ive had long tenancies with some great folk. But there are people who are working the system and the law is unbelievably stacked in their favour.

Ray Palmer

While it is possible for a 10k fine it is only awarded on the basis of doing something extraordinary. Is it likely that somebody who is abusive to neighbours and the property getting paid such a fine? Not really, it is a punishment for unreasonable behaviour by the LL. It is not a reward for getting a LL to react without having all paper work.

Start the process again to be safe and get official complaint by neighbours on record. Keep a record of all actions and behaviours. Write a record of what has happened thus far.

odds_on

Ray Palmer wrote: »

While it is possible for a 10k fine it is only awarded on the basis of doing something extraordinary. Is it likely that somebody who is abusive to neighbours and the property getting paid such a fine? Not really, it is a punishment for unreasonable behaviour by the LL. It is not a reward for getting a LL to react without having all paper work.

Start the process again to be safe and get official complaint by neighbours on record. Keep a record of all actions and behaviours. Write a record of what has happened thus far.

As Ray Palmer and others have said, start again.

Issue a notice (letter) stating the relevant RTA 2004 laws as regards anti-social behaviour (section 16 (h) and that the tenants desist from any such behaviour, if they are so doing.
A further definition of anti-social behaviour is found in Section 17 which should be included.

If there is rent arrears, issue a 14 days notice of rent arrears and if the rent is not paid within that time immediately issue a notice of Termination.

Samples of many Notices (some with help notes) are available on the PRTB website.

Ant notice issued which is invalid (i.e. not completed as required with all details and dates) may, if acted upon, be cause for damages against the landlord.

Solicitors are not really of any extra benefit and there is always the extra costs - and not all solicitors are conversant with the RTA 2004 and related laws.