8200s and 2700s up for sale

end of the road

http://www.locomotives-for-sale.com/rolling-stock/commuter-emu-for-sale-lease/
http://www.locomotives-for-sale.com/rolling-stock/dmu-for-sale-lease/

Cookie_Monster

Link wrote:

A well proven class of 1.5kv DC (overhead) commuter EMU, built in 2000 by Alsthom.

:pac::pac::pac::pac:

Well proven to do nothing I should say


Note that the photo's are taken while the units are new, with the 2700s in the arrow livery, though weirdly distorted. No mention of the corridors being stripped out either.

corktina

looks as if they had to disguise their origin or werent allowed use current liveries.

end of the road

the 8200s? well proven? meh. lets say an operator is interested, wouldn't they actually want to send over a representitive to see the units? can't see any buyers for either to be honest.

purplepanda

So are 2751-2753 included or not? :pac:

end of the road

purplepanda wrote: »

So are 2751-2753 included or not?

i don't actually know, the site suggests not (unless of course their included as 1 2 car unit) theirs a brochure which can be downloaded, that might reveal whether their included or not

flyingsnail

purplepanda wrote: »

So are 2751-2753 included or not? :pac:

end of the road wrote: »

i don't actually know, the site suggests not (unless of course their included as 1 2 car unit) theirs a brochure which can be downloaded, that might reveal whether their included or not

The downloadable brochure has details of the multi cabs so I assume that they are for sale.

Millem

Well the worst kept Irish rail secret is now public, but the question is who in god's name would be interested? 2700s are ok-ish, the caveat being when only used in 2 car sets. 8200s are heaps of junk. I see no mention in the alsthom brochure that, though the units may be 12 years old, their level of usage reflects nothing like this number.

Wouldn't be surprised (if a bit saddened) to see these units meet their fate with a cutters torch in north wall or inchicore. Can't see too many being interested.

patrickbrophy18

The funny thing is that the 8200's are the electric cousins to the 2700 diesels in that they were developed by Alstom. The door opening mechanism is almost identical bar the buttons on the doors themselves. Even the interior frames (minus the seats) are made with the exact same parts. Essentially the design of the 8200's is largely based on the 2700 DMUs. The rock hard seats of the 8200's were far from being a popular choice.

Nevertheless, it is hilarious that both adverts describe each set of units as a "well proven class". If this is the case, are they still suitable for service? If so, why are they being given away?

Otherwise, another type of customer (the prospective company which may acquire the units) is being told a porky pie!:mad:

newmug

Well Holy God! What's wrong with sticking them on Donedeal?

Millem

The other thing likely to put off potential buyers is 'small fleet syndrome' - I.e. the relative small size of both the 2700 and 8200 fleet.

Any idea why the agent has changed the livery around in the brochure pics? Perhaps word on the rail grapevine that both fleets ain't the most reliable?

corktina

newmug wrote: »

Well Holy God! What's wrong with sticking them on Donedeal?

"first to see will buy, will fly through NCT"

patrickbrophy18

corktina wrote: »

"first to see will buy, will fly through NCT"

There's an NCT for railway carriages?;)

I wish Irish Rail the best of luck with this!:D

dowlingm

An interested buyer could solve the splitting problem by replacing the end Scharfenbergs with similar semipermanent couplers to the ones used intra-set sufficient to make up 4 or 6 car sets.

Don't think the ad mentions the need for most/all the 2700 cars to get a serious overhaul, does it?

Millem

Any ideas how much a unit would fetch? Presumably the agent wouldn't quote for units in isolation but as part of an overall order?

From memory weren't the 8200s bought at somewhere in the region of €4m per set? Would be interested to see how much these yokes would expect to command these days (presuming someone is interested) - non standard bogies and a chequered history of reliability would surely not inspire confidence to a potential buyer

The 8200s were moved from Fairview to Inchicore this morning.

dowlingm

The Mk3s were "for sale" too. I suspect the breakers yard for the 8200s once "the market has been tested"

Captain Chaos

Karsini wrote: »

The 8200s were moved from Fairview to Inchicore this morning.

2 sets were moved there on Thursday by a 29. One set (8204/8404) will have to be scrapped as it is in a very bad way and is missing a lot of parts that were used on the other sets.

gobnaitolunacy

newmug wrote: »

Well Holy God! What's wrong with sticking them on Donedeal?

Might make good garden sheds/chicken houses.

dublinman1990

There are photos up from RSI site on Smugmug show some movements at Pearse and Connolly Station looking at 4 carriages of the 8200 class going up towards Inchicore.

The graffiti is still on them though. I thought they would be cleaned at Fairview?

http://transportsceneireland.smugmug.com/RailSceneIreland/RSI-September-2012/25263008_x4k6jG#!i=2094822424&k=h67JLG2

Millem

dublinman1990 wrote: »

There are photos up from RSI site on Smugmug show some movements at Pearse and Connolly Station looking at 4 carriages of the 8200 class going up towards Inchicore.

The graffiti is still on them though. I thought they would be cleaned at Fairview?

http://transportsceneireland.smugmug.com/RailSceneIreland/RSI-September-2012/25263008_x4k6jG#!i=2094822424&k=h67JLG2

A rather ignominious end for a stock purchase that was pretty ill thought out and should never have been made.

Is the plan to stable the fleet at inchicore indefinitely until disposal? By the looks of things the Fairview locals weren't overly kind to them

Captain Chaos

Millem wrote: »

A rather ignominious end for a stock purchase that was pretty ill thought out and should never have been made.

Is the plan to stable the fleet at inchicore indefinitely until disposal? By the looks of things the Fairview locals weren't overly kind to them

Well set 1 has been in Inchicore for at least 3 years as far as I know. Set 4 is basically just a shell. They did a mix job with sets 3 and 5, mixed and matched the power and trailer cars around for some reason while set 2 seems ok'ish. They did test trails with them in 2010 to return 2 sets to service but never happened.

Basically the 27 2700s and 10 8200s will wait at Inchicore until the cutters torch gets to them. Along the the 90 odd Mk3s that's a lot of scrapping to be done this year.

Solair

They've misspelt Alstom ! It's not "A well proven class of 1.5kv DC (overhead) commuter EMU, built in 2000 by Alsthom."

Solair

Solair wrote: »

They've misspelt Alstom ! It's not "A well proven class of 1.5kv DC (overhead) commuter EMU, built in 2000 by Alsthom."

I noticed that the builder's plate in the 2700s says GEC Alsthom rather than Alstom.

Solair

Karsini wrote: »

I noticed that the builder's plate in the 2700s says GEC Alsthom rather than Alstom.

Woops!

Seems it dropped the H in 1998.

Solair

Solair wrote: »

Woops!

Seems it dropped the H in 1998.

Yep, just saw that myself. Was wondering why it was there.

haulage.basher

Jesus. Whatever about the 2700s but the 8200s were only built in 2000. Is it not an absolute mindboggling disgrace and a waste of money to scrap them. I mean they are still very very new in railway stock terms. The 2700s are even not considered old at all.

I'm sure they have not even payed for themselves in 7 years.

Surely if the reliability of the sets was so bad to the extent they had to be withdrawn, IE would be entitled to a least a partial refund or credit from Alstom on the basis that the sets were unfit of intended use. No?

Cookie_Monster

haulage.basher wrote: »

Jesus. Whatever about the 2700s but the 8200s were only built in 2000. Is it not an absolute mindboggling disgrace and a waste of money to scrap them. I mean they are still very very new in railway stock terms. The 2700s are even not considered old at all.

I'm sure they have not even payed for themselves in 7 years.

Surely if the reliability of the sets was so bad to the extent they had to be withdrawn, IE would be entitled to a least a partial refund or credit from Alstom on the basis that the sets were unfit of intended use. No?

indeed but this is Irish Rail we're talking about, waste is nothing new or unexpected here...

end of the road

the 2700s and 8200s have been removed from that website, wonder are they bound for the cutting torch?

foggy_lad

end of the road wrote: »

the 2700s and 8200s have been removed from that website, wonder are they bound for the cutting torch?

They probably found some nasty fault that leaves them only for for scrap, but more seriously, they were quite old anyway so it's likely there were not enough offers if indeed there were any at all.

Cookie_Monster

they were not old in the slightest. I wonder if any of the societies will offer a Euro to IE for one?

Millem

end of the road wrote: »

the 2700s and 8200s have been removed from that website, wonder are they bound for the cutting torch?

Maybe they've found a buyer

LivelineDipso

I reckon they have been sold. Be interesting to see who took them.

Wonder if the gauge can be altered? For Iberia or South American or even India/Pak?

Victoria Railways or Translink?

dowlingm

Brazil could probably taken them almost as is if loading gauge was workable and signalling equipment fitted - 1600mm track gauge there. Parts of Aus too but there's a lot of standardisation to 1435mm going on there.

For me the Irish operators are just too damn small because it's hard for them to persuade a manufacturer to keep a line going over a period of time. If NI and the Republic had forced NIR and IE to come up with an ongoing co-operation in procurement maybe NIR would be sending 22Ks down when Enterprise broke and IE would be using C4Ks rather than end-door 22Ks for commuter services. On the other hand I suppose we could have had DDs on the Dublin-Cork with the 201s breaking down every five minutes under HEP load.

end of the road

Millem wrote: »

Maybe they've found a buyer

maybe for the 2700s anyway, anyone know if their started regularly? of course they should have new coupling systems fitted and be doing the commuter runs instead of 22000s but as they went overkill on them for supposed services they were never going to implament i suppose its best to get them doing some work as their newer rather them ending up in storage/awaiting the cutting torch.
can't imagine anyone buying the 8200s, they would probably have to have all new equipment fitted as it seems parts can't be got for them now? oh god i know i'm wasting my time but still its ridiculous the way irish rail have behaved with rolling stock, i suppose the management or whoever was in charge of such ridiculous decisians will get a pay rise? excluding dick fern of course who most lightly once he retires is off back to the uk with his pension, after all i doubt he will stay in ireland? maybe he will?

Judgement Day

Here's something that could be done with some of the 2700s but there's more chance of CIE putting a bus on the Moon.


Express Parcels DMU (1987) at Liverpool Lime Street
Copyright © Malcolm Smith 2002

foggy_lad

Judgement Day wrote: »

Here's something that could be done with some of the 2700s but there's more chance of CIE putting a bus on the Moon.


Express Parcels DMU (1987) at Liverpool Lime Street
Copyright © Malcolm Smith 2002

GLS and An Post can do the job a lot faster and cheaper than Irish Rail/CIE ever did when they did offer parcel delivery services

Judgement Day

foggy_lad wrote: »

GLS and An Post can do the job a lot faster and cheaper than Irish Rail/CIE ever did when they did offer parcel delivery services

Nonsense. Anyway, I wasn't suggesting CIE/IE do it - they are beyond salvation. But if somebody was of a mind to introduce such a service there would be dozens of obstacles put in their way and the units would be scrapped - surprised that they haven't been already.

end of the road

Judgement Day wrote: »

Nonsense. Anyway, I wasn't suggesting CIE/IE do it - they are beyond salvation. But if somebody was of a mind to introduce such a service there would be dozens of obstacles put in their way and the units would be scrapped - surprised that they haven't been already.

come on jd, its the same excuse from foggy and others to not bother trying anything new on the railway.
such and such can do it faster and cheeper, aka they can do it via road so no need for the railways which if they got proper investment and a government and state run operator who were interested actually it could be done faster via rail, if irish rail were gone and i had the money i'd certainly give such a service a go.

corktina

what such a service would lack would be flexibility and what it would need are parcels depots at Stations. I can't see it succeeding if the parcels had to be transferred to and from depots at each end of the train run.

Judgement Day

corktina wrote: »

what such a service would lack would be flexibility and what it would need are parcels depots at Stations. I can't see it succeeding if the parcels had to be transferred to and from depots at each end of the train run.

That's CIE type thinking I'm afraid - if there was a will there would be a way. What happened to the tender that they put out for contractors to provide a Fastrack service Dublin/Cork - gone the same way as the two (!) tenders put out for retro-fitting the 22000s with SDO. What a company....

corktina

Judgement Day wrote: »

That's CIE type thinking I'm afraid - if there was a will there would be a way. What happened to the tender that they put out for contractors to provide a Fastrack service Dublin/Cork - gone the same way as the two (!) tenders put out for retro-fitting the 22000s with SDO. What a company....

theres a world of difference between a fasttrack type service utilising those empty driving trailers and a dedicated parcels unit in fairness....

foggy_lad

Judgement Day wrote: »

That's CIE type thinking I'm afraid - if there was a will there would be a way. What happened to the tender that they put out for contractors to provide a Fastrack service Dublin/Cork - gone the same way as the two (!) tenders put out for retro-fitting the 22000s with SDO. What a company....

Instead of just harping on about how Irish Rail have done this and that to block your beloved parcel service why not enlighten us as to how you think it should or could be done? Remember it has got to meet all the relevent health and safety rules as well as satisfying the unions and also be cheaper than the competition!

Judgement Day

corktina wrote: »

theres a world of difference between a fasttrack type service utilising those empty driving trailers and a dedicated parcels unit in fairness....

Obviously and I wasn't linking the two, but rather I was highlighting CIE/IE's lethargy when it comes to doing anything. Years ago I was at a meeting in Heuston where a senior executive explained to me that railway preservation (i.e.Choo Choos) wasn't a high priority for them...sadly neither was anything else save waiting for the golden handshake, lump etc. As far as I can see most CIE/IE employees are car drivers themselves and have little affinity with the traveling public, and there's no incentive for them to do anything other than clock in their hours and mark time until retirement.

Judgement Day

foggy_lad wrote: »

Instead of just harping on about how Irish Rail have done this and that to block your beloved parcel service why not enlighten us as to how you think it should or could be done? Remember it has got to meet all the relevent health and safety rules as well as satisfying the unions and also be cheaper than the competition!

It's a difficult concept I know but here's the basics. You (IE or a private operator) get hold of through lease/purchase a pair of 2700 railcars, make sure they are fit to operate, insured etc. Fill them up with diesel, properly market the new service and wait for the customers to roll in....I'm not in the humour to explain a full business plan to you but surely even somebody as anti-rail as you can get the idea?

Dublin/Cork followed by Dublin/Belfast would be worth a lash but if I were getting into the business I would start off by using space on the existing MkIV and De Deitrich trains. If I still lived in Dublin I would have done something already but trapped down here in DG it's too hard to organise. Anyway, I'm off to watch Lord of the Rings and escape....Evening all!

foggy_lad

Judgement Day wrote: »

It's a difficult concept I know but here's the basics. You (IE or a private operator) get hold of through lease/purchase a pair of 2700 railcars, make sure they are fit to operate, insured etc. Fill them up with diesel, properly market the new service and wait for the customers to roll in....I'm not in the humour to explain a full business plan to you but surely even somebody as anti-rail as you can get the idea?

Dublin/Cork followed by Dublin/Belfast would be worth a lash but if I were getting into the business I would start off by using space on the existing MkIV and De Deitrich trains. If I still lived in Dublin I would have done something already but trapped down here in DG it's too hard to organise. Anyway, I'm off to watch Lord of the Rings and escape....Evening all!

OK here is the nut-cracker for the balls of your idea, please collect several parcels from my address in Carlow and deliver them around the country while collecting even more parcels as companies like DHL do daily, now tell us how are you going to get your trains out the road to my address? how are you going to keep to any schedule when you have to stop every few miles and deliver parcels? and most importantly how are you going to keep costs to a minimum when you have to pay over the going rate for train staff and all that goes with operating a train as well as courier company services for collections and deliveries?

DHL, GLS etc only pay once for collecting and delivering items because it is collected and sorted by themselves then delivered by them but you propose paying couriers to collect in vans then you deliver to a station by train where another courier comes to collect and deliver to the addressee, you propose getting customers to pay for double handling and triple handling of their own parcels which makes delayed, damaged, stolen and lost parcels much more probable!

corktina

thats more or less what I said... you would need a depot at whatever stations you are serving and a delivery network of your own at each.

Thats not to say it wouldn't work, using a train to do the main trunking, but you would need to do everything in-house like the couriers do and you would have to do it as cheap as they do.

IE could do it , on a fastrack type basis, if they had the will, with customers doing there own collection and delivery and using existing premises and spare staff capacity (which I am SURE exists). I'm not sure private enterprise could do it though.

LivelineDipso

City centre deliveries would be fine. The IFSC to Central Belfast might work. They could convert one carragie into a very nice plush business class coach so the DMUs could deliver parcels between the cities and allow people to do business on the way.

Can't see enough brain cells in CIE to imagine something like this. Too much like marketing.

A few months ago IE tendered for disposal of spares for 201, 8200 and 2700. I wasn't interested as they were in 3 big lots!

foggy_lad

corktina wrote: »

thats more or less what I said... you would need a depot at whatever stations you are serving and a delivery network of your own at each.

Thats not to say it wouldn't work, using a train to do the main trunking, but you would need to do everything in-house like the couriers do and you would have to do it as cheap as they do.

IE could do it , on a fastrack type basis, if they had the will, with customers doing there own collection and delivery and using existing premises and spare staff capacity (which I am SURE exists). I'm not sure private enterprise could do it though.

Sounds like the way to do it except that it would cost the same for the Irish Rail part of the journey from rail depot to rail depot as it would to have a professional courier business like DHL or GLS or even An Post deliver the items from door to door but with Irish rail customers would have added costs of dropping off and collecting from rail depots.