Penalty points question

Padkir

Hi,

Got 2 points there a couple of weeks ago and paid it last week in the post office. Emailed the npo email address to see what date they'll be applied from and he said 28 days from the date of initial notice.

Is it not meant to be from when you pay it? I paid in a hurry as it was just coming up to my insurance renewal and my thinking was they'll be gone in 3 years when I'm renewing, so only having those 2 points for 2 more renewals...

slimjimmc

It's 28 days from the date of the initial notice

Sect 4 Road Traffic Act 2002

4.—Penalty points endorsed on the entry of a person shall, subject to section 3 (2), remain on the entry for a period of 3 years beginning on the appropriate date, and the Minister shall—

(a) cause the penalty points to be removed from the entry at the end of that period, and

(b) cause a notice to be given or sent, by post or otherwise, to the person—

(i) of the ending of the period and its date, and

(ii) of the removal and particulars of the penalty points the subject of the removal.

where "appropriate date" is defined by Sect 7 as:

7.—(1) In this Act, subject to the provisions of this section, the appropriate date, in relation to penalty points, is the date that is 28 days from the date of the notice under section 5 relating to the penalty points; and, for the purposes of the application of this section to section 3 (1), the notice under section 5 is that relating to the penalty points concerned that are the latest to be endorsed on an entry before a disqualification occurs under section 3 (1) of the person to whom the entry relates.

CiniO

slimjimmc wrote: »

It's 28 days from the date of the initial notice

Sect 4 Road Traffic Act 2002


where "appropriate date" is defined by Sect 7 as:

How does it work in case someone doesn't accept (doesn't pay) the fine, and let the case go to court.
Obviously he is going to get the points in court (probaby twice as much) but are points going to be issued 28 days from court case?

If yes, then it leaves a space for abuse, as someone who f.e. already has 10 points, get a penalty notice with another 2, might not pay the fine, and wait for court case which might take months, in which time some of his current points might go (as they last 3 years) and therefore f.e. 28 days after court case he might have only 6 points, and therefore even if he gets another 4 from court, he wouldn't exceed the points, while if he accepted the fine straight away he would.

goz83

CiniO wrote: »

How does it work in case someone doesn't accept (doesn't pay) the fine, and let the case go to court.
Obviously he is going to get the points in court (probaby twice as much) but are points going to be issued 28 days from court case?

If yes, then it leaves a space for abuse, as someone who f.e. already has 10 points, get a penalty notice with another 2, might not pay the fine, and wait for court case which might take months, in which time some of his current points might go (as they last 3 years) and therefore f.e. 28 days after court case he might have only 6 points, and therefore even if he gets another 4 from court, he wouldn't exceed the points, while if he accepted the fine straight away he would.

You're an evil genius.

L-M

I had two points issued to me on the 4th of June 2009 and they don't run out until the 14th of October.

Go figure.

Also, OP, two points will make no difference to your insurance.

hi5

CiniO wrote: »

How does it work in case someone doesn't accept (doesn't pay) the fine, and let the case go to court.
Obviously he is going to get the points in court (probaby twice as much) but are points going to be issued 28 days from court case?

If yes, then it leaves a space for abuse, as someone who f.e. already has 10 points, get a penalty notice with another 2, might not pay the fine, and wait for court case which might take months, in which time some of his current points might go (as they last 3 years) and therefore f.e. 28 days after court case he might have only 6 points, and therefore even if he gets another 4 from court, he wouldn't exceed the points, while if he accepted the fine straight away he would.

But at the rate he's collecting points he'll have another 2 points within a few weeks after the court case anyway.

L1011

hi5 wrote: »

But at the rate he's collecting points he'll have another 2 points within a few weeks after the court case anyway.

Really depends how they got them. 10 points could be accrued from two incidents (varying from parking dangerously through to no insurance), or ten (going the wrong way around a roundabout, disobeying compulsary move signs, that sort of thing)...

slimjimmc

CiniO wrote: »

How does it work in case someone doesn't accept (doesn't pay) the fine, and let the case go to court.
Obviously he is going to get the points in court (probaby twice as much) but are points going to be issued 28 days from court case?

If yes, then it leaves a space for abuse, as someone who f.e. already has 10 points, get a penalty notice with another 2, might not pay the fine, and wait for court case which might take months, in which time some of his current points might go (as they last 3 years) and therefore f.e. 28 days after court case he might have only 6 points, and therefore even if he gets another 4 from court, he wouldn't exceed the points, while if he accepted the fine straight away he would.

Indeed, but on the presumption of innocence he hasn't been convicted of anything yet so in that sense it's fine. Working the system happens everywhere in law, that's one reason why people buy legal advice.
He may avoid a disqualification but he'd still have to tell his insurance company of the pending case.

Padkir

Limerick man wrote: »

Also, OP, two points will make no difference to your insurance.

Oh I know that, I told them during this year's renewal process and they told me they didn't care.

The thing is if I happen to accumulate a few more over the next 3 years, for the renewal in September 2015 it may make a big difference to be able to have those 2 gone, e.g. down to 4 points instead of 6.
Not that I'm going out expecting points but of course it's always a possibility.

Anyway, thanks all for clearing that up!

CiniO

slimjimmc wrote: »

Indeed, but on the presumption of innocence he hasn't been convicted of anything yet so in that sense it's fine.

Of course that until someone is proven to be guilty he can't be convicted, but backdating points back to day of offence wouldn't be bad idea, as it would eliminate opportunity for abusing the system.

F.e in Poland it works that way, that no matter if fine is issued on the spot, or is it posted few week later (f.e. from speed camera) or it's decided by court, penalty points are always allocated with the date of offence.
System is bit different there, as points limit is 24, point erase after 1 year, and you can get up to 10 point for single offence.
Anyway - my friend experienced heavily how the system works there. Last year up to July 2011 he accumulated 23 point, so he knew that any offence now would mean exceeding the limit, and he drove very very very carefully to make sure he wouldn't break any law. It worked, and his points went down to 0 by July this year. Happy days.
Unfortunately, before all that points thing, he has a little accident in March 2011 (just typical fender-bender). Police was called and they stated that it was other party's fault (not my friend's). Unfortunately other party didn't agree with police opinion, and therefore case had to go to court. It took over a year, and court case was only few months ago, where it was decided, that person to blame for that accident is my friend (not the other party like initially police decided). Being to blame for accident gave my friend extra 6 penalty points - as I said before - with the date of an offence (which was March 2011).
Therefore, is showed up in their system then, that while my friend had 23 points in July 2011, after activating extra 6 points from March 2011, there was 29 alltogether which was over the limit, and therefore my friend got a letter last month, informing his that due to fact he exceeded penalty points, he will be obliged to sit his driving test again (that's normal procedure after exceeding penalty points in Poland).

L-M

Padkir wrote: »

Oh I know that, I told them during this year's renewal process and they told me they didn't care.

The thing is if I happen to accumulate a few more over the next 3 years, for the renewal in September 2015 it may make a big difference to be able to have those 2 gone, e.g. down to 4 points instead of 6.
Not that I'm going out expecting points but of course it's always a possibility.

Anyway, thanks all for clearing that up!

I had that same worry, I've managed the three years thus far anyway! Points are unlucky in a lot of cases, they're not something that would concern me one bit though!