Dissolving CIE

Wote

In the 67 years since Coras Iompair Eireann was formed by the merger of the Great Southern Railways and the Dublin United Transport Company, Ireland has been served for better or worse by our nationalised public transport system.

Along the way there have been a number of successes, such as the electrification of the Howth-Bray line and the modernisation of the Bus and Train fleets.

However there have been a greater number of failures to the travelling public. Instead of running an integrated transport system we are now in the situation where the Rail and Provincial Bus divisions are in competition with each other and in many cases buses leave at radically different times to trains where the two systems meet.

Instead of a transport operation, CIE as a whole appears to be run as a giant outdoor relief scheme for its staff, many of whom are related to each other due to nepotism and a sense that many jobs, particularly in the railway sector, are given to sons and daughters of existing staff. The unions, and in particular the NBRU, regularly hold the travelling public to ransom by striking for the flimsiest of reasons.

The divisions of CIE, Iarnrod Eireann, Bus Eireann and Dublin Bus are ostensibly seperate companies under the CIE umbrella. But the CIE accounts tell a different story. It is difficult to work out how much profit or loss is made between the divisions. It is mind boggling to consider that IE and BE are actually in competiton with each other, yet that is the case.

Cui Bono? Who benefits?

Not the travelling public. Rude station staff, poor connections and a lack of information are the order of the day.

But what can be done?

It's my opinion that CIE as an organisation is broken, beyond the point of repair. Layers of management and a don't care attitude from staffers who see their job as one for life means that in my opinion no level of reform could fix it.

Those of us who travel using the NI Railways and Ulsterbus services can see an entirely different attitude, albeit one that has grown better from the past. Translink are in my opinion run on a far more integrated basis than CIE. In an increasingly cross border economy surely it would make sense to convert Translink into a cross border body and get them to manage the Republic's transport system.

mickydoomsux

Wote wrote: »

The unions, and in particular the NBRU, regularly hold the travelling public to ransom by striking for the flimsiest of reasons.

Patently untrue.

AlekSmart

Wote wrote: »

Instead of a transport operation, CIE as a whole appears to be run as a giant outdoor relief scheme for its staff, many some of whom are related to each other due to nepotism and a sense that many jobs, particularly in the railway sector, are given to sons and daughters of existing staff. The unions, and in particular the NBRU,regularly hold the travelling public to ransom by striking for the flimsiest of reasons.

The divisions of CIE, Iarnrod Eireann, Bus Eireann and Dublin Bus are ostensibly seperate companies under the CIE umbrella. But the CIE accounts tell a different story. It is difficult to work out how much profit or loss is made between the divisions. It is mind boggling to consider that IE and BE are actually in competiton with each other, yet that is the case.

It's my opinion that CIE as an organisation is broken, beyond the point of repair. Layers of management and a don't care attitude from staffers who see their job as one for life means that in my opinion no level of reform could fix it.

Those of us who travel using the NI Railways and Ulsterbus services can see an entirely different attitude,albeit one that has grown better from the past. Translink are in my opinion run on a far more integrated basis than CIE. In an increasingly cross border economy surely it would make sense to convert Translink into a cross border body and get them to manage the Republic's transport system.

My own employment within the CIE group stretches back 37 years.

I did not then have any relations in CIE,and neither have I now.

Odd as it may appear,amongst my own colleagues,most are in a similar situation.

I do know several sets of siblings who came into the job over several years,but I'm intrigued that anybody would find that strange in a large company.

As for the Unions "Regularly holding the travelling public to ransom",it may well have been interpreted as that,but it's now c.10 years since I was involved in any Industrial Action.

However I accept that "regularity" as a concept can be highly personal.

The comparisons between UTA aka Translink/Ulsterbus/NIR and CIE may well be valid and worth discussion,however any such comparison immediately moves the topic into a highly Politicised area indeed.

Odd as it might seem the Notion of Translink taking over the Republic's Public Transport system could well be worth discussion,as long as one accepts that concepts such as the difference between "Free Travel" and "Concessionary Travel" are also up for discussion..?

Grass is always greener,no matter where

foggy_lad

Wote wrote: »

The unions, and in particular the NBRU, regularly hold held the travelling public to ransom by striking for the flimsiest of reasons.

mickydoomsux wrote: »

Patently untrue.

It's fixed now:)

Hungerford

Wote wrote: »

In the 78 years since Coras Iompair Eireann was formed by the merger of the Great Southern Railways and the Dublin United Transport Company, Ireland has been served for better or worse by our nationalised public transport system.

Actually, there were two Coras Iompair Eireanns - a 1944 one which was quoted on the Irish Stock Exchange and the 1950 one which we all know and love, which replaced the 1944 one.

Wote

Thanks for pointing that out! The CIE formed by the Transport Act 1944 was a private company, essentially the GSR run by DUTC management. Also I have re done my maths and changed the age of CIE based on its original 1945 vesting. CIE was nationalised in 1950.

The "Flying Snail" logo was the DUTC logo originally...

The Idyll Race

Translink is legally the Northern Ireland Transport Holding Company and is a slightly recast version of the old Ulster Transport Authority, of late and wholly lamented memory. It isn't that different in its set up to the CIE monolith, but in recent years has been dramatically different in how it treated its daughter companies NIR, Ulsterbus and Citybus.

The crucial difference between the North and the Republic is comparing the interaction between the government, the employees of Translink, the general public and the local media. Northern Ireland has high car ownership, like the Republic, and essentially half the six county area had their railways taken away over a fairly short period of time from 1957-1965. The only railway closures that have taken place since have been the route changes between Antrim and Belfast, with minor station closures as a result.

There is no appetite for further closures. Unlike here, where the Indo fulminates against "waste" and every graduate that passed through the dismal hands of Barrett and McDowell wants the Republic to be a little America with strip malls and ribbon development and the railways don't fit into that paradigm.

The Belfast Telegraph, the Translink unions and Translink management ran a successful campaign to save the Derry railway. Zero chance of that happening here. The Indo and the Business Post would rail against "waste" and "duplication of buses" and the Unions would not give a damn as long as they got either redundancy or replacement jobs. Sorry AlekSmart if I am wrong in this statement, but I have never heard a peep out of the unions in CIE about saving anything in the last thirty years.

Mary O'Rourke was a disaster among disasters as transport ministers. Of the whole sorry list I only really rate Seamus Brennan as being any good. It is too soon for me to form a judgement on Leo Varadakar. Mary Harney egged on useless competition between BE and IE and for the mess that IE made of its own once rail connected port it really should be taken off them.

Since it started CIE has been subject to political interference. Percy Reynolds, the first Chairman was ex-DUTC, a busman to his fingertips and a Fianna Fail supporter. He was succeeded by Frank Lemass, brother of Sean and the notorious CS Andrews, who gleefully closed the Harcourt Street line because of his stated hatred of the "Protestant solicitors from Carrickmines" who he claimed used the railway, and a man fond of smart aleckery like asking for rail tickets from impoverished rail campaigners from West Cork protesting the closure of their lines. It was impossible with the service timetabled to return in the one day from Dublin and they could not afford to stay over, still he got a cheap laugh from it.

The running down of the Waterford - Rosslare railway to the point where it made no meaningful connection to the rest of the network is a brutal example of the cyncism pervading CIE management. Rosslare - Waterford was not built as a South Wexford railway alone but managed properly could have continued with effective links (along existing railways in case some of you freeek) to Limerick, Cork and Galway. Instead it was closed and the square root of fanny adams was said by the unions. Not fit for purpose.

Thank God Sean Barrett didn't get his way in the 1980s to scrap the whole railway system. We do need an organisation that will run the railways as effectively as possible and play to their strengths, speed and comfort. CIE isn't that organisation. Whether the other factors exist in the equation in the Republic that allows the railways to thrive in the North is debatable.

Wote

AlekSmart wrote: »

Odd as it might seem the Notion of Translink taking over the Republic's Public Transport system could well be worth discussion,as long as one accepts that concepts such as the difference between "Free Travel" and "Concessionary Travel" are also up for discussion..?

Grass is always greener,no matter where

The travel concession is a real anomaly alright. Here in GB pensioners get local off-peak free travel and concession fares on the railways but only if a senior citizens railcard is purchased.

I have no problem with discounted fares for pensioners but free travel for them and the unemployed is a luxury we in Ireland can't afford.

Is the grass greener? Not for me, I've worked in London Underground and Network Rail for over 20 years on and off and I really get annoyed by the frequently offhand attitude of many IE staff I've encountered when home (I'm from Maynooth). Having said that a lot of IE staff are decent and friendly as well.

NIR used to be a fairly unpleasant bunch to travel with - maybe the paranoia over security didn't help but in recent years I have noticed a big change in attitude from staff. Why is that?

The Idyll Race

I would absolutely agree over concession travel. On-peak free travel must be scrapped forthwith, though I believe the Luas Red Line would be the main beneficiary.

The UK example of half-price fares with a concession card should be given some serious consideration and the whole issue of Social Welfare passes should be reviewed. Not abolished, but reviewed and targeted more carefully.

mikemac1

The Idyll Race wrote: »

Mary Harney was a disaster among disasters as transport ministers. Of the whole sorry list I only really rate Seamus Brennan as being any good. It is too soon for me to form a judgement on Leo Varadakar. Harney egged on useless competition between BE and IE and for the mess that IE made of its own once rail connected port it really should be taken off them.

Poor Mary was never minster for transport

AlekSmart

The Idyll Race wrote: »

The crucial difference between the North and the Republic is comparing the interaction between the government, the employees of Translink, the general public and the local media. Northern Ireland has high car ownership, like the Republic, and essentially half the six county area had their railways taken away over a fairly short period of time from 1957-1965. The only railway closures that have taken place since have been the route changes between Antrim and Belfast, with minor station closures as a result.

There is no appetite for further closures. Unlike here, where the Indo fulminates against "waste" and every graduate that passed through the dismal hands of Barrett and McDowell wants the Republic to be a little America with strip malls and ribbon development and the railways don't fit into that paradigm.

The Belfast Telegraph, the Translink unions and Translink management ran a successful campaign to save the Derry railway. Zero chance of that happening here. The Indo and the Business Post would rail against "waste" and "duplication of buses" and the Unions would not give a damn as long as they got either redundancy or replacement jobs. Sorry AlekSmart if I am wrong in this statement, but I have never heard a peep out of the unions in CIE about saving anything in the last thirty years.

Mary Harney was a disaster among disasters as transport ministers. Of the whole sorry list I only really rate Seamus Brennan as being any good. It is too soon for me to form a judgement on Leo Varadakar. Harney egged on useless competition between BE and IE and for the mess that IE made of its own once rail connected port it really should be taken off them.

Since it started CIE has been subject to political interference. Percy Reynolds, the first Chairman was ex-DUTC, a busman to his fingertips and a Fianna Fail supporter. He was succeeded by Frank Lemass, brother of Sean and the notorious CS Andrews, who gleefully closed the Harcourt Street line because of his stated hatred of the "Protestant solicitors from Carrickmines" who he claimed used the railway, and a man fond of smart aleckery like asking for rail tickets from impoverished rail campaigners from West Cork protesting the closure of their lines.


Thank God Sean Barrett didn't get his way in the 1980s to scrap the whole railway system. We do need an organisation that will run the railways as effectively as possible and play to their strengths, speed and comfort. CIE isn't that organisation. Whether the other factors exist in the equation in the Republic that allows the railways to thrive in the North is debatable.

Excxellent post,Idyll Race,and not much I would disagree with.

I consider the Government/CIE relationship to be of the utmost importance and the quotations and anecdotes you provide do give an accurate feel for it.

Mention of Percy Reynolds is of itself interesting,as he I feel,was something of a visionary in how he saw the CIE role.

For example,his vision of Busaras was of a Head Office for CIE combined with an ultra-modern Transport Terminal where passengers could relax and dine in the roof-top restaurant before heading downstairs to the Páthe-News theatre in the basement between connections.

We cannot,even 70 years later,aspire to this level of concept.

Instead we flail around,endlessly listening to folks who never use Public Transport,telling us how competition and privatization will revolutionize our world.

This stuff has led to the destruction of what little usable integration the old CIE group offered,the destruction of the Railway Network as a single countrywide entity and a National Fascination with imposing new and totally un-integratable systems on top of each other ad-nauseum.

CIE,for all of it's faults has never been anything other than a Politically driven Transport Entity...reality or integrity never entered the debate...which is exactly the difference between us and the UTA/Translink-UK/NI Government relationships.....

The Idyll Race

mikemac1 wrote: »

Poor Mary was never minster for transport

Sorry, I should have said Mammy O'Rourke but Mary H did have a big impact at cabinet on overall government policy including transport. Mary H, Charlie McCreevy and da Bert were a cabinet subcommittee on Transport Policy during that time.

AlekSmart

mikemac1 wrote: »

Poor Mary was never minster for transport

This was/is an odd one,because during her equally successful tenure as Minister for Health,Ms Harney was rarely off the media in relation to Public Transport issues.

Even when significant collapses were occuring in her own Department,she seemed to favour making statements and demands regarding Public Transport instead.

Yet she was never taken to task on this,as her position as PD Public Transport person seemingly rendered her immune to criticism about her actual Cabinet portfolio.

Bizzarre stuff,but strangely normal in our National Context

The Idyll Race

AlekSmart wrote: »

Excxellent post,Idyll Race,and not much I would disagree with.

I consider the Government/CIE relationship to be of the utmost importance and the quotations and anecdotes you provide do give an accurate feel for it.

Mention of Percy Reynolds is of itself interesting,as he I feel,was something of a visionary in how he saw the CIE role.

For example,his vision of Busaras was of a Head Office for CIE combined with an ultra-modern Transport Terminal where passengers could relax and dine in the roof-top restaurant before heading downstairs to the Páthe-News theatre in the basement between connections.

We cannot,even 70 years later,aspire to this level of concept.

Instead we flail around,endlessly listening to folks who never use Public Transport,telling us how competition and privatization will revolutionize our world.

This stuff has led to the destruction of what little usable integration the old CIE group offered,the destruction of the Railway Network as a single countrywide entity and a National Fascination with imposing new and totally un-integratable systems on top of each other ad-nauseum.

CIE,for all of it's faults has never been anything other than a Politically driven Transport Entity...reality or integrity never entered the debate...which is exactly the difference between us and the UTA/Translink-UK/NI Government relationships.....

AlekSmart, in an ideal world due to your common sense, you would be a Director of CIE and as a consequence the organisation would be focused on its role as the National Transport Company. Alas, as my Pappy says, common sense is misnamed, because it ain't that common.

Wote

Thankfully neither Marys Harney or O'Rourke are in much of a position of influence these days. O'Rourke in particular was in my opinion the worst minister for transport we ever had.

bk

AlekSmart wrote: »

Instead we flail around,endlessly listening to folks who never use Public Transport,telling us how competition and privatization will revolutionize our world.

Alek, while I agree with most of what you say, I have to disagree with this part.

I use public transport daily and I can safely saying that the introduction of private competition on the Cork route has been a revolution.

In the last 6 months since the introduction of Aircoach we now have:

- 2 new private operators offering 32 additional services a day cable of carrying at least 1,600 passengers per day.
- Reduction in bus journey time to Cork from 4 hours 30 minutes to 3 hours
- Reduction in bus fares to Cork to €18 return for a 3 hour journey.
- Introduction of almost hourly services and most importantly late night/early morning public transport between Cork and Dublin.
- Bus Eireann reducing their journey time by an hour.
- Irish Rail cutting ticket prices in half
- Irish Rail looking to knock 30 minutes off the Cork route journey times.

I would certainly say that private competition has been a revolution on the Cork route and also the Galway, Limerick and Belfast routes.

foggy_lad

Wote wrote: »

I have no problem with discounted fares for pensioners but free travel for them and the unemployed is a luxury we in Ireland can't afford.

In what pub were you told that the unemployed have free travel?

mickydoomsux

foggy_lad wrote: »

In what pub were you told that the unemployed have free travel?

He meant to say "unemployable"

Wote

Private competition is fine to an extent but imagine if you came from Quigley's Point in Donegal. Where's yer Aercoach then?

Of course private competitors can cream off the popular routes and no doubt try and kill off the competition by price wars etc. Private operators get to use the roads built by the taxpayer without any direct funding from themselves. How much did Aercoach pay for the motorway section from Portlaoise to Cashel? Nothing. But they get to use it and make some money from it.

Line upgrades to allow 160 km/h plus train services are a must. It is crazy that a train is only allowed to travel at the road speed limit on most of the Dublin - Cork line.

foggy_lad

mickydoomsux wrote: »

foggy_lad wrote: »

In what pub were you told that the unemployed have free travel?

He meant to say "unemployable"

Those deemed unemployable are not entitled to free travel!

The Idyll Race

foggy_lad wrote: »

Those deemed unemployable are not entitled to free travel!

The Social Welfare Travel Passes AFAIK go to those aged over 66, to those on Carer's allowance and to those on disability.

The friendly fellows on the Red Line I believe are on disability, though I stand to be corrected on this.

Wote

Did they get disabled falling off roofs while robbing the lead?

The Idyll Race

Wote wrote: »

Did they get disabled falling off roofs while robbing the lead?

You might say that, I couldn't possibly comment on that..:D

kc56

Wote wrote: »

Line upgrades to allow 160 km/h plus train services are a must. It is crazy that a train is only allowed to travel at the road speed limit on most of the Dublin - Cork line.

Road speed limit: 120kph (100kph for coaches all seating)
Rail speed limits: 145 - 160kph ( 90-100mph) (a few bits at lower speeds)

Wote

Thanks for that, I stand corrected. Nevertheless there are substantial portions of the Network where the maximum speed is way below 145 or 160.

Hilly Bill

Is there limiters on the coaches that restrict them to 100kph?

bk

Wote wrote: »

Private competition is fine to an extent but imagine if you came from Quigley's Point in Donegal. Where's yer Aercoach then?

Obviously there are places that will not be profitable for a private operator (though you would be surprised at the number of small bus operators around the country operating in and between small towns and villages with no subisdy).

There will always be some places where the government will need to step in and subsidise services for social reasons. But that doesn't necessarily mean we need a massive operation like BE to operate such subsidised services.

I suspect that private operators could operate many of the subsidised BE routes for less subsidy (and thus less tax payers money) then BE.

How much did Aercoach pay for the motorway section from Portlaoise to Cashel? Nothing.

Aircoach do however pay road tax, vat, duty and vat on fuel, road tolls, etc.
Roads are more then paid for by their users (cars, trucks and buses) bring in far more tax and duty money then it costs to build and maintain the roads.

Is there limiters on the coaches that restrict them to 100kph?

Yes.

Wote

There are indeed already some BE routes being run on their behalf by private operators, I think the Dublin - Donegal Town route is run that way. I don't necessarily have a problem with that provided the route is timetabled to connect with other bus and rail services and a defined standard of service is adhered to.

Its when private operators cut fares to the bone to kill off other operators I start to have problems. That is always a zero sum game in which the travelling public ultimately lose out.

Hilly Bill

More travel options is always good .

AlekSmart

bk wrote: »

Alek, while I agree with most of what you say, I have to disagree with this part.

I use public transport daily and I can safely saying that the introduction of private competition on the Cork route has been a revolution.

In the last 6 months since the introduction of Aircoach we now have:

- 2 new private operators offering 32 additional services a day cable of carrying at least 1,600 passengers per day.
- Reduction in bus journey time to Cork from 4 hours 30 minutes to 3 hours
- Reduction in bus fares to Cork to €18 return for a 3 hour journey.
- Introduction of almost hourly services and most importantly late night/early morning public transport between Cork and Dublin.
- Bus Eireann reducing their journey time by an hour.
- Irish Rail cutting ticket prices in half
- Irish Rail looking to knock 30 minutes off the Cork route journey times.

I would certainly say that private competition has been a revolution on the Cork route and also the Galway, Limerick and Belfast routes.

The issue for me is not so much the revolutionary nature of these changes,but rather how only in Ireland could they be seen as such.

Many of these changes are in train (:o) only due to the removal of the Dept of Transport from the regtulatory picture.

The NTA is not perfect,but it has brought a rush of oxygen to a brain formerly pickled in brine.

I would also suggest that the "Revolution" is not without it's casualties,as the somewhat sudden and withdrawal of the service providers from the DSP market illustrates.

Whether or not one is for or agin the Free Travel Scheme,it remains one of the bedrocks of Irish State Social Policy and it's removal from significant chunks of Public Transport infrastructure on the back of this "revolution" is not particularly good news for many.

For one thing,it allows tardy Government to shrug it's shoulders and retreat from the complete overhaul the FT Scheme so badly requires whilst simply declaring it a matter for the operators concerned.

Secondly,it now appears to establish Bus Eireann as some form of low-rent operation who'se prime function is to act as the Transport arm of the DSP,not a very commercial option for any transport company.

The major plus point,IMO,is the renewed focus on how we have managed to allow a National Rail and Bus network to become so disjointed in it's operation,when the benefits of closer integration were so glaringly obvious to past generations.

The past 12 months mark the first real opportunity for positive change in perhaps 50 years,lets hope it does'nt descend into the nonsensical "Fare-Wars" scenario which largely destroyed the same potential Public Transport gains in the UK.

bk

AlekSmart wrote: »

Many of these changes are in train (:o) only due to the removal of the Dept of Transport from the regtulatory picture.

I would disagree with this. I believe the change in rail is due to Irish Rail finally waking up to massively falling passenger numbers due to competition from the motorways (cars and buses) and the realisation that they aren't just going to get bailed out by the government.

They realise now that they need to keep passenger numbers up to justify their subsidy or it will be cut even further.

As for the DSP, well that isn't really the fault of the private operators, rather it is the fault of the DoT and DoF who refuse to allow the scheme to be extended to new routes and operations and who refuse to reform the scheme and actually pay a fair fee for DSP people carried.

Interestingly, despite having a free pass, my mother "paid" to take the Aircoach service from Cork to Dublin Airport as it was quicker and easier for her (Aircoach stops right at the door of departures and no need for an elderly person to struggle shuffling heavy bags off a train and on to the 747).

The point I'm trying to make with this, is that with the prices of the coach services being so cheap, that even pass holders don't mind paying the relatively small amount. The free pass was needed when tickets to Cork cost €80, but when they cost only €18, it isn't such a big deal.

Which IMO validates the idea that the DSP scheme should be reformed to make it a concessionary fare, rather then free.

Either way Alek you can't deny that public transport on the Cork route has improved many times over in the past 6 months. There maybe some causalities, but it is so much better now, it isn't even funny.

AlekSmart

bk wrote: »

The point I'm trying to make with this, is that with the prices of the coach services being so cheap, that even pass holders don't mind paying the relatively small amount. The free pass was needed when tickets to Cork cost €80, but when they cost only €18, it isn't such a big deal.

Which IMO validates the idea that the DSP scheme should be reformed to make it a concessionary fare, rather then free.

Either way Alek you can't deny that public transport on the Cork route has improved many times over in the past 6 months. There maybe some causalities, but it is so much better now, it isn't even funny.

Perhaps I'm not making myself clear,but I am in no way denying the improvement currently apparent on the Cork road.

That is incidental to the discussion,as I tend to believe that Sustainability is the most important element of Public Transport in the long term.

The real question remains as to how long this level of service improvement can be maintained before the casualties you mention start falling.

I would strongly disagree with you that the DSP customers will have no difficulty in paying a "Concessionary Fare"

It is my experience that the Free Travel Entitlement is a VERY highly regarded one indeed,particularly amongst the 320,000 NON Pension age recipients.

I believe that a FULL revision of the Free Travel scheme is now URGENTLY required if Operators,Public and Private are to have any opportunity to plan and develop their services in any meaningful manner.

In a country of c.3 Million adults,having 726,000 of them travelling at a very heavily discounted delayed payment rate makes any form of meaningful financial planning virtually impossible.

bk

AlekSmart wrote: »

The real question remains as to how long this level of service improvement can be maintained before the casualties you mention start falling.

Well GoBus and CityLink have been operating on the Galway route for a number of years now and seem to be doing very well, really packing them in.

Both GoBus/CityLink have increased capacity by switching some of their coaches to Double Deckers and all put on extra relief coaches when very busy.

I don't see why it isn't sustainable and why there can't be equal success on the Cork, Limerick and Belfast corridors?

AlekSmart wrote: »

I would strongly disagree with you that the DSP customers will have no difficulty in paying a "Concessionary Fare"

Oh, I'm well aware that some elements who currently receive the DSP pass will whine about it, but I believe the honest users of it will accept such a change, rather then lose it completely.

AlekSmart

bk wrote: »

Oh, I'm well aware that some elements who currently receive the DSP pass will whine about it, but I believe the honest users of it will accept such a change, rather then lose it completely.

Thgis will,IMO,be a major rallying point for the politically astute nay-sayers currently seeking a BIG-ISSUE :rolleyes:

currins_02

Wote wrote: »

Private competition is fine to an extent but imagine if you came from Quigley's Point in Donegal. Where's yer Aercoach then?

QUOTE]

Quigleys Point is a poor example. The whole Inishowen Peninsula is one of the most densely populated ares of Co Donegal but is commpletely unserved in any way by BE or CIE.

Incidently there is a twice daily direct Dublin service by a private operator from Moville, Carndonagh, Buncrana and even Burnfoot which is less than 10mins away. Local transport is covered by multiple daily services to Derry & Letterkenny by 2 other private operators who engage in healthy competition. It is possible to get a private bus twice a day to Moville, Carndonagh or Buncrana and connect with another rivate to go to Dublin City or Airport. Both accept DSW passes by the way also.

CIE or BE don't even operate a single school bus on the Inishowen Peninsula which houses Irelands largest secondary school. All of that work is subbed out to privates too.

The Idyll Race

currins_02 wrote: »

Wote wrote: »

Private competition is fine to an extent but imagine if you came from Quigley's Point in Donegal. Where's yer Aercoach then?

QUOTE]

Quigleys Point is a poor example. The whole Inishowen Peninsula is one of the most densely populated ares of Co Donegal but is commpletely unserved in any way by BE or CIE.

Incidently there is a twice daily direct Dublin service by a private operator from Moville, Carndonagh, Buncrana and even Burnfoot which is less than 10mins away. Local transport is covered by multiple daily services to Derry & Letterkenny by 2 other private operators who engage in healthy competition. It is possible to get a private bus twice a day to Moville, Carndonagh or Buncrana and connect with another rivate to go to Dublin City or Airport. Both accept DSW passes by the way also.

CIE or BE don't even operate a single school bus on the Inishowen Peninsula which houses Irelands largest secondary school. All of that work is subbed out to privates too.

If you are local you should know that the Swilly has virtually thrown in the towel as far as the real Kerrykeel is concerned. Sum total of buses to Derry now are 8.00 (Swilly), 8.20, 10.00, 13.20 and 16.30 (rest Northwest). Inishowen is not a poster boy for the joys of Private Enterprise.

Back in the day it was a case of Healthy competition my hairy Irish ass, because the Northwest used to run five minutes or so ahead of the Swilly buses. Some friggin' choice.

Wote

Inishowen is a good example of how untrammelled competition between bus companies ends up benefitting only one bus company and sod the passengers.

I am familiar with the area and well remember the late 60s/early 70s double deck services Lough Swilly used to run into Derry from Carndonagh and Shroove/Greencastle. Back then there was a choice of buses from QP to either Carn or Greencastle.

When Northwest Busways arrived onto the scene the first thing they did was to kill off the Swilly service, not by filling in the gaps in the timetable or cutting fares, but timetabling their buses five minutes before the Swilly buses turned up.

Result? We now have the same frequency of buses as 40 years ago but they are run by Northwest Busways and not the Swilly. The Swilly barely exists on the eastern side of Inishowen now and the Swilly bus to Carn from Quigley's Point no longer runs.

So much for the vaunted "competition" but I note Inishowen Rural Transport are running minibus services around Inishowen. Can Currins post some info that in another thread?

CIE

Wote wrote: »

Inishowen is a good example of how untrammelled competition between bus companies ends up benefitting only one bus company and sod the passengers.

I am familiar with the area and well remember the late 60s/early 70s double deck services Lough Swilly used to run into Derry from Carndonagh and Shroove/Greencastle. Back then there was a choice of buses from QP to either Carn or Greencastle.

When Northwest Busways arrived onto the scene the first thing they did was to kill off the Swilly service, not by filling in the gaps in the timetable or cutting fares, but timetabling their buses five minutes before the Swilly buses turned up.

Result? We now have the same frequency of buses as 40 years ago but they are run by Northwest Busways and not the Swilly. The Swilly barely exists on the eastern side of Inishowen now and the Swilly bus to Carn from Quigley's Point no longer runs.

So much for the vaunted "competition" but I note Inishowen Rural Transport are running minibus services around Inishowen. Can Currins post some info that in another thread?

The Lough Swilly company is still calling itself the "Lough Swilly Railway Company", is it not? A bit of a delay to call them on false advertising, something tells me. (Kinda like the San Francisco Municipal Railway that mostly runs trolleybuses and only a few light rail lines...)

The Idyll Race

CIE wrote: »

The Lough Swilly company is still calling itself the "Lough Swilly Railway Company", is it not? A bit of a delay to call them on false advertising, something tells me. (Kinda like the San Francisco Municipal Railway that mostly runs trolleybuses and only a few light rail lines...)

It is the Londonderry and Lough Swilly Railway Company, I'll have you know They seem to be concentrating now mainly on Derry - Buncrana runs, with some to Letterkenny and the legendary run to Burtonport and Dungloe from Letterkenny still goes once daily.

The Idyll Race

Wote wrote: »

Inishowen is a good example of how untrammelled competition between bus companies ends up benefitting only one bus company and sod the passengers.

I am familiar with the area and well remember the late 60s/early 70s double deck services Lough Swilly used to run into Derry from Carndonagh and Shroove/Greencastle. Back then there was a choice of buses from QP to either Carn or Greencastle.

When Northwest Busways arrived onto the scene the first thing they did was to kill off the Swilly service, not by filling in the gaps in the timetable or cutting fares, but timetabling their buses five minutes before the Swilly buses turned up.

Result? We now have the same frequency of buses as 40 years ago but they are run by Northwest Busways and not the Swilly. The Swilly barely exists on the eastern side of Inishowen now and the Swilly bus to Carn from Quigley's Point no longer runs.

So much for the vaunted "competition" but I note Inishowen Rural Transport are running minibus services around Inishowen. Can Currins post some info that in another thread?

It looks like that the US right wing idea that public transport is purely for those too old or too young to drive cars is engendered into the already privileged in Ireland, therefore it is impossible for them to understand why frequent and effective public transport *heretical bit coming* is a good thing in itself.

It is imperative that the Labour element (and even Fine Gael) in government grasp this and realise that scrapping CIE and replacing it with a new Authority with a proper focus on delivering sustainable and effective transport for all the people of this godforsaken country is a chance to change the dismal script of the last seventy years.

currins_02

I live in the Inishowen area and while I work in the Coach industry I must state I do not nor never have worked for any of the providers mentioned.

Firstly, Kerrykeel? Surely experts like those on here would be aware this is on the Fanad peninsula and not the Inishowne peninsula.

Next, it should be noted that NorthWest Busways was founded by a co operative of Lough Swilly Drivers who had lost their jobs during an industrial dispute. The whole purpose and mission behind the initial company was to destroy Lough Swilly's services and that should never have been allowed yet in all they were granted licences to do so - blame should largely be attributed to the department for granting said licences. This model proved unsustainable to the point the company changed from a co-operative to a limited company and then was sold on to another operator. Since then timetables have been altered services tweaked and it, in my opinion, is a poster service for how rural transport in Ireland can be sustainable.

Swilly (incorporated at "Londonderry & Lough Swilly Railway Co" or "L & LSR Co") is a dying animal. The current owners only ever bought the company for the massive property portfolio attached which included the current Foyle St Bus Depot in Derry, Land at Pennyburn Roundabout in Derry, Yard at Springtown in Derry, Land at Letterkenny Bus Depot including the depot, Land in Buncrana including Bus Depot, Land in Carndonagh etc. They have developed the current Foyle St Depot & Letterkenny Depots which were let out through development company associate companies, They built samll retail units at Buncrana which are all let. developed large retail units at Pennyburn etc. Of course they built, own and run the massive Letterkenny Shopping centre on Lough Swilly owned property. Property is their "thing". The bus operation has suffered from no new investment with services having to cover all costs. As long as the company breaks even or returns any level of profit it will continue to trade. Once it records a loss many, myself included, beleive it will be wound up or sold. Hence why the fleet profile is of such an age with cheap older buses entering every year, this is all the management can purchase for ready cash as they are precluded by the owners from undertaking finance as would be needed for a modern fleet. As a result they are loosing passengers constantly to both NorthWest and Inishowen Rural Transport both of whom run much more modern vehicles in better condition.

That said Neither Swilly nor NorthWest receive any state subvention. The drivers & management at Swilly held a high profile campaign a few years back to retain a service to Malin head which was of social need but not sustainable on a balance sheet. They had the door shut in their face and despite the non activity of CIE in this huge area the service was lost.

Inishowen Rural Transport have a suite of basically PSO services which can be detailed here:
http://www.inishowen.ie/transport/rural-transport-scheldules/
The irony is many of these are imitations of either full or portions of services that were run by Swilly or NorthWest but discontinued due to fiscal unsustainability as private operation is preculded from PSO subvention at present (long live 2014!). Now, while not being called PSO subvention we have the governement funding these services via the Leader programme through Inishown Rural Development and ultimately then Inishowen Rural Transport. Users make a small contribution on services except if they are a DSP holder. NorthWest Busways are one of the main contractors to Inishowen Rural Transport. It beats me as to why such services were blanket banned from PSO money yet are reinvented and subvented now in such a complex manner. Why not protect the original service? But such is life with Irish politics and the ongoing fear of upsetting the apple cart with regard to the semi state monster that is CIE.

Back to Quigley's Point, as you will be aware knowing the area (and now understanding that it is not in Fanad but in Inishowen). Quigley's Point is officially a townland of Muff. It is 10mins from Moville, Carndonagh & Burnfoot. Less than 5mins from Muff itself. Now between Swilly, NorthWest and Inishowen Rural Transport there are numerous daily links with Derry & Letterkenny available from Carndonagh, Burnfoot and Muff. Yes in the past there was much duplicity of service but this is now not the case. I would venture that few rural areas in Ireland are as well serviced by CIE as Inishowen is serviced by this threesome. I repeat I have no connection to either. Surely a basically hourly (sometimes less) (obviously by combining various providers) connection with major conurbations within 10mins is excellent? What more do posters expect? A bus to lift at every door in the parish?

Do a straw poll of Inishowen people who use the services and they will fiercely defend all three companies. They did so when a campaign (pre Inishowen Rural Transport) was waged to protect Swilly's Malin services by means of a small PSO subsidy (an annual subvention of just over €20,000 was asked for if I remember correctly) but Dublin based politicians running scared of setting anti CIE precedents shot it down. Over 1000 people signed a petition at the time.

All that said, The swilly could be a dying breed due to the owners having no interest in bus operation (they axed a lucrative private hire division for example) and management should be commended for keeping the company going until now.

The Idyll Race

currins_02 wrote: »

I live in the Inishowen area and while I work in the Coach industry I must state I do not nor never have worked for any of the providers mentioned.

Firstly, Kerrykeel? Surely experts like those on here would be aware this is on the Fanad peninsula and not the Inishowne peninsula.

Back to Quigley's Point, as you will be aware knowing the area (and now understanding that it is not in Fanad but in Inishowen).

Quick point first, Kerrykeel is what my Grandmother and her generation called Quigley's Point village, to the point that commercial maps down to the 90s had the village named "Carrowkeel". I am quite aware that QP is in Inishowen, I am here right now.

Wote asked earlier about the ICT services, which neither of us had a handle on. Thanks for that.

Secondly, thanks for the detailed information regarding the Swilly's property development. I knew they had lands at Pennyburn, they used to have an extensive depot there until the 80s but thought not unreasonably that since the buses were always in a impecunious state that they had sold their land banks.

Foyle Street Bus Station is a complete surprise to me. I would have thought that was on the old Londonderry Port and Harbour Commissioners lands and not Swilly, they must have had some pot of money to acquire that in the first instance. The Swilly's old railway station was opposite what is now Mr Longs and the road is built over it.

You are however being not specific about the bus services, suggesting that Burnfoot/Muff/QP are interchangeable. I never heard of QP being a townland of Muff, but I do know that it is part of the Catholic parish of Iskaheen and Upper Moville, Upper Moville being the village of Drung further up the coast. Drung is about eight miles from Iskaheen chapel and a bus serving Drung, while being in the same parish as Iskaheen, could in no way be deemed to be serving Iskaheen. Whatever about driving and parking at a railway station, driving five miles to take a local bus another five miles doesn't happen and you know it. QP has the same pattern of services it had forty years ago despite a ten fold increase in population.

Looking at the Inishowen Community Transport website, in fairness those are good evening services on a Thursday, Friday and Saturday from QP to Derry and a useful addition. Thanks for the heads up about that, and with the hospital links to Letterkenny. I'm not sure why you are painting the services as being rosier than they are, but given what I said earlier about the philosophy that public transport is deemed to be a residual service for those too old or too young to drive, the public it seems must accept this as being good enough.

dowlingm

CIE wrote: »

The Lough Swilly company is still calling itself the "Lough Swilly Railway Company", is it not? A bit of a delay to call them on false advertising, something tells me. (Kinda like the San Francisco Municipal Railway that mostly runs trolleybuses and only a few light rail lines...)

Even worse: the Hamilton Street Railway has no rail of any kind at present - just buses. (And with the numpty currently mayor it's likely to stay that way)

dowlingm

I don't think I like where this is going in a CIE/IE context:
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/policy-legislation/single-view/view/directive-91440-does-not-require-institutional-separation.html

The Idyll Race

dowlingm wrote: »

I don't think I like where this is going in a CIE/IE context:
http://www.railwaygazette.com/news/policy-legislation/single-view/view/directive-91440-does-not-require-institutional-separation.html

CIE won't like this little broadside by Tony Berkeley, chairman of the Rail Freight Group in this month's Railway Magazine:

Iarnrod Eireann is reported to be selling off about 90 Mk3 coaches and a number of diesel locomotives for scrap, having failed to attract interest in the rolling stock from an overseas rail operator. They should think again.

These trains are at present surplus to requirements, and with a gloomy economic outlook, IE says the prospects for using them again are poor. However, after some eight years of derogation, Ireland is finally to accept the European structure of separation of infrastructure from operations, and allow fair competition for both passenger and freight services. There is good interest in other operators trying to enter the Irish freight market - but without rolling stock they are stuck, since with a unique track gauge, it is not cheap to rebogie and move stock between Ireland and other member states.

Retaining their monopoly is of course the ambition of all incumbents, and one of the oldest tricks is to sell off rolling stock and locos to avoid competitors entering the market at reasonable cost. BR did the same with locos, and it was only because Ed Burkhart's EWS placed an order for hundreds of new Class 66's that this enabled not only EWS to operate better services but also its competitors to buy new kit at reasonable prices.

The Irish Government should seek bids from leasing companies to take over ownership of this stock, and maintain it in working order for at least five years, to encourage the independent market to develop.

Quoted in precis form because 1. This place needs a serious outside perspective away from assertions made that noone wants to run rail freight in Ireland and 2. this isn't linked on the web.

end of the road

The Idyll Race wrote: »

CIE won't like this little broadside by Tony Berkeley, chairman of the Rail Freight Group in this month's Railway Magazine:

which locos is he referring to? the stored 201s? the mark 3s on the other hand are gone beyond repair, something which if i had my way would be one of many reasons to fire the current management of IE.
the problem is that because IE doesn't run rail freight people have this idea that no private operator would want to run rail freight or that it isn't viable. maybe their right i don't know, but if an operator wants to run rail freight they should (and do to an extent i believe) have every right to without interfearence by IE.

Hungerford

end of the road wrote: »

which locos is he referring to? the stored 201s? the mark 3s on the other hand are gone beyond repair, something which if i had my way would be one of many reasons to fire the current management of IE.

He's clearly referring to the stored 201s. There have been indications that they have been put up for sale by IE. As he points out, this would be a means of preserving IE's monopoly by ensuring that there was just about enough stock on the island to run only its services.

Unfortunately, I always have the impression that Berkeley's group don't quite have a grasp on the Irish situation. They need to not only lobby the government directly but they need to publicise the issue and embarrass IE.

In the current climate, if one of Berkeley's crowd made a statement along the lines of 'We want to run a service from x to y and create z number of jobs but IE are blocking us' - that would put massive pressure on the government to act.

The other issue is that they badly need to put their money where their mouth is - if they are that keen on rail freight in Ireland, one of their members should purchase the locos from IE.

corktina

this doesnt square with the conspiracy theory that IE has a scorched earth policy towards rolling stock. It's rumoured that the spare 201s are being put out to tender for disposal. Thus any aspiring freight company could buy these locos and start a freight service with them,. only having to find suitable wagons, re-guaging of which is relatively easy

CIE

corktina wrote: »

This doesn't square with the conspiracy theory that IE has a scorched earth policy towards rolling stock. It's rumoured that the spare 201s are being put out to tender for disposal. Thus any aspiring freight company could buy these locos and start a freight service with them, only having to find suitable wagons, re-guaging of which is relatively easy

You have yet to prove that it's a "conspiracy theory". The results and status quo speak for themselves, as does continued state control and a shrinking network. In addition, re-gauging is a cumbersome and unnecessary fixed cost that could be done away with if 1600-mm gauge is exchanged for 1435 mm (a one-time cost versus multiple times due to having to re-gauge new stock).

The state is not permitting "any aspiring freight company" to do any railfreight business in Ireland (especially per law); the only way that would happen, it seems, is if the EU clamps down on Ireland's derogation of Directive 91/440—which I don't want to happen personally (i.e. I would rather a different route to be taken), since it means more state control but this time from outside the country, opening the way for state companies of other countries (e.g. Deutsche Bahn) instead of private, independent companies to perform such services/do such business. Don't be surprised if one day Ireland's current green logo on motive power and rolling stock gets replaced by "Verkehrsrot"...