Bought Category D right off without knowing.

pookakie · 03-09-2012 1:50pm #1

Just after a bit of advice please...

I have been trying to sell my car for two weeks now and was close to a sale last Friday. The lady who was going to buy it did a cartell check on it and it turns out it was a category D right off in the UK.

The thing is, the dealer did not notify me of this when i purchased it four years ago. Do i have any rights here? Can i go back to this dealer and ask for compensation as this is now essentially costing me money as i cannot sell the car for as much now.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. The dealer in question is not SIMI registered.

Thanks.

whomitconcerns · 03-09-2012 1:59pm

just to be clear..where did you buy it, in the UK or in Ireland. Was it UK reg when you bought? Or irish reg?

And you say he is not simi registered, so do you really mean it was essentially a private sale...if so, no you have no comeback....

awec · 03-09-2012 2:03pm

This post has been deleted.

Henry Ford III · 03-09-2012 2:04pm

Why didn't you HPI it before buying it?

Gurgle · 03-09-2012 2:05pm

CAT D Means it was 100% fixable, no safety issues. It was uneconomic to repair based on a quotation with OEM parts and hourly labour rates.
These things often turn out to be very profitable to repair using scrapyard parts and un-billed time.

I wouldn't think you have any comeback there, as the safety of the vehicle isn't in question.
Your suggestion that its worth less was equally true when you bought it.

RobAMerc · 03-09-2012 2:18pm

a lot worse than Cat D's are put back on the road here daily with no one saying a word here as there is no formal way of recording it.

In a way it proves that in fact you are better off buying an English import where you can have a check of a documented history rather than here where God knows what can get back on the road.

If the dealer in fact knew he should have told you. I suspect you'll find it very difficult to prove he had any idea.

A-Trak · 03-09-2012 2:29pm

Do dealers not do similar checks when buying cars themselves?
I know cartell have trade user accounts.

Surely dealers avail of similar checks, they don't want to get stuck with a write off or a car still under hire purchase etc?

pookakie · 03-09-2012 2:35pm

The car was bought in a well known Dublin car dealership on Irish plates. It was recently registered in Ireland at the time of purchase. It was bought by my wife who was not told of any issues with the car.

It was market value at the time, so there were no savings at time of purchase.

whomitconcerns · 03-09-2012 2:43pm

well the person that bought it in the Uk should have been told by law (if it was a dealer sale) that the car was a cat d writeoff. However, to my mind a personal sale they dont have to tell.

So basically if your dealer bought the car from a non business in UK, he may well not have known it was a writeoff.

I think you have to take your medicine unfortunately, no matter how bitter... you could try for goodwill..but I think after this much time it wont happen...You should have done a thorough online check before buying...

pookakie wrote: »

The car was bought in a well known Dublin car dealership on Irish plates. It was recently registered in Ireland at the time of purchase. It was bought by my wife who was not told of any issues with the car.

It was market value at the time, so there were no savings at time of purchase.

coylemj · 03-09-2012 2:44pm

whomitconcerns wrote: »

And you say he is not simi registered, so do you really mean it was essentially a private sale...if so, no you have no comeback....

Just because the guy who sold the car is not a member of SIMI does not make it a private sale. Don't be giving indy dealers yet more excuses to walk away from the implied warranty that goes with a car purchased from a dealer.

OP, unless the car was in a dangerous condition when your wife bought it, the dealer is off the hook.

In order for you to have a case against him, he would have had to give a false answer to the question: 'has this car ever been involved in a significant crash?'. If you didn't ask the question then you really don't have a leg to stand on.

You bought the car secondhand four years ago, that means that it has probably passed at least two NCTs under your ownership. I understand that you feel cheated but you can't claim that the car is defective or a death trap.

whomitconcerns · 03-09-2012 2:47pm

coylemj wrote: »

'has this car ever been involved in a significant crash?'. If you didn't ask the question then you really don't have a leg to stand on.

Not if the dealer didnt know about it...then he would only go on what he was told...and if he was told no crash and was happy to believe it...then I dont believe that he could be held liable...

But in saying that it could be taken legally as a reasonable expectation that a knowledgeable dealer to do a full check before buying a car and so would have been informed....but i don't know if that's ever been tested in court...so...

pookakie · 03-09-2012 3:07pm

From the cartell.ie website:

Category C and D can be sold on as long as you disclose to the new owner that the vehicle has been previously written off. This will show up on your Cartell Car Check. If you sell a vehicle that was written off and you did not disclose it to the new owner, then you are liable and may be prosecuted for disception.

Does this not mean i can follow it up with the dealer? Surely there's some straight forward rules about this sort of thing.

coylemj · 03-09-2012 3:09pm

whomitconcerns wrote: »

Not if the dealer didnt know about it...then he would only go on what he was told...and if he was told no crash and was happy to believe it...then I dont believe that he could be held liable...

But in saying that it could be taken legally as a reasonable expectation that a knowledgeable dealer to do a full check before buying a car and so would have been informed....but i don't know if that's ever been tested in court...so...

No, even if the dealer knew about it he is not obliged to volunteer the information. If the car was professionally fixed up to a standard that enabled it to pass at least two NCTs after the OP bought it (and this appears to be the case) then in law the dealer has done no wrong.

There may be a presumption on the part of the buyer that the dealer has done background checks etc. and it's certainly in the dealer's interests to make sure that there is no finance outstanding but in terms of crash repairs there is no legal obligation that I have ever heard of whereby the dealer is obliged to reveal damage from a previous crash that has been repaired.

This is the acid test under the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act, 1980 .....

(2) Without prejudice to any other condition or warranty, in every contract for the sale of a motor vehicle (except a contract in which the buyer is a person whose business it is to deal in motor vehicles) there is an implied condition that at the time of delivery of the vehicle under the contract it is free from any defect which would render it a danger to the public, including persons travelling in the vehicle.

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1980/en/act/pub/0016/print.html#sec13

coylemj · 03-09-2012 3:11pm

pookakie wrote: »

From the cartell.ie website:

Category C and D can be sold on as long as you disclose to the new owner that the vehicle has been previously written off. This will show up on your Cartell Car Check. If you sell a vehicle that was written off and you did not disclose it to the new owner, then you are liable and may be prosecuted for disception.

Does this not mean i can follow it up with the dealer? Surely there's some straight forward rules about this sort of thing.

Ask cartell.ie to quote their source for that legal opinion.

readytosnap · 03-09-2012 6:28pm

pookakie wrote: »

From the cartell.ie website:
If you sell a vehicle that was written off and you did not disclose it to the new owner, then you are liable and may be prosecuted for disception.

I don't mean to be pedantic but did you copy that from the cartell website? reason i ask is "disception" if that's how much effort they put into their spelling i would not be relying on anything else they had to say.

pookakie · 03-09-2012 7:12pm

readytosnap wrote: »

pookakie wrote: »

From the cartell.ie website:
If you sell a vehicle that was written off and you did not disclose it to the new owner, then you are liable and may be prosecuted for disception.

I don't mean to be pedantic but did you copy that from the cartell website? reason i ask is "disception" if that's how much effort they put into their spelling i would not be relying on anything else they had to say.

Yes, copied and pasted so I guess they can't be trusted if they can't spell.

So it looks like we're on our own here, but I'm still going to go to the dealer and let him know. Maybe he'll be more careful in future.

gyppo · 03-09-2012 7:46pm

OP, I think you need to quantify your information a bit more.
How old was the car when you bought it four years ago?

Cat D generally refers to damage that would cost approx 60% of the pre-accident value of the car to put right.
60% of a 10 year old car could cause it to be declared a Cat D write-off for very minor damage.
On the other hand, 60% of a 1 year old car is substantial!

pookakie · 03-09-2012 9:00pm

gyppo wrote: »

OP, I think you need to quantify your information a bit more.
How old was the car when you bought it four years ago?

Cat D generally refers to damage that would cost approx 60% of the pre-accident value of the car to put right.
60% of a 10 year old car could cause it to be declared a Cat D write-off for very minor damage.
On the other hand, 60% of a 1 year old car is substantial!

It's a 2004 car, so it was four years old when I bought it. Cost €14 k at the time so it would have been a decent bit of damage.

maidhc · 03-09-2012 10:31pm

gyppo wrote: »

Cat D generally refers to damage that would cost approx 60% of the pre-accident value of the car to put right.
60% of a 10 year old car could cause it to be declared a Cat D write-off for very minor damage.
On the other hand, 60% of a 1 year old car is substantial!

CAT D is a that the car was written off, not accident repaired.

However it means the car was written off for a reason other than CAT C, which is where the car was an uneconomic repair. In other words, the car was written off despite being a realatively easy repair.

Many CAT Ds are stolen recovered cars, others might be due to some oddball part making repair at the time unfeasible.

Give me a CAT D over a CAT C anyday, and remember the majority of heavy repairs are not ever recorded!

L1011 · 03-09-2012 10:49pm

I'd actually hazard a guess that most Cat D's are first year rejections. Most policies allow you to request a brand new car if there's any noteable damage in the first year.

Motorcheck · 03-09-2012 11:45pm

I'd recommend contacting the company who provided the history check and asking them to investigate the circumstances around the cat d classification (at Motorcheck we do this all the time). As mentioned above it may have been something relatively small and since put right by the dealer you bought it from.

Failing that, you could get an Automotive Engineer to inspect and certify the car as roadworthy. It could go a long way in reassuring any potential buyers. Feel free to PM me if you'd like a recommendation.

Bought Category D right off without knowing.

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