Irish Links

mike12

Following on from the I'm Playing my first Links thread i sort of started a couple of years ago trying to play my way thru all the 18 hole links courses in Ireland up to 24 at the moment out of the 53 i think there is there are a few on the list that people will say are not true links but they are near enough for me. The list as it stands. If there are any missing let me know.
Ardglass1Played

Arklow2

Ballybunion3

Ballycastle4Ballyliffin5

Ballyliffin Galsheady6

Belmullet7Played

Bundoran8Played

Carnalea9

Castlerock10

Ceann Sibeal11

Co. Louth12Played

Co. Sligo13Played

Connemara14

Corballis Links15Played

Donaghadee16

Donegal17Played

Dooks18Doonbeg

Links19
Dunfanaghy20

Enniscrone21Played

European22Played

Fermoy23

Galway Bay24Played

Greencastle25

Greenore26Played

Kilkee27

Kirkistown Castle28Played

Lahinch29
Lahinch Second30

Laytown & Bettystown31Played

Mourne32Played

Narin & Portnoo33Played

North West34

Portmarnock35Played

Portmarnock Hotel36Played

Portsalon37


Portstewart38

Rathmore39

Rosapenna40Played

Rospenna Tom Morris41Rosslare42

Royal Co. Down43Played

Royal Portrush44

Seapoint45Played

Skellig Bay46

St. Anne's47Played

Strandhill48

The Island49Played

The Links Portmarnock50Played

The Royal Dublin51Played

Tralee52

Waterville53

aster99

Very hard to read that.

Will be a great achievement to get the full list completed. Best of luck with it and enjoy the journey!

mike12

aster99 wrote: »

Very hard to read that.

Will be a great achievement to get the full list completed. Best of luck with it and enjoy the journey!

I know, when i pasted them in they were in a nice list. Problem now is that i have played a lot of the cheaper Links heading in the Clare and Kerry direction is where things get expensive.
Mike

MP62

aster99 wrote: »

Very hard to read that.

Will be a great achievement to get the full list completed. Best of luck with it and enjoy the journey!

+1 very hard to read, but at a glance Skellig Bay is not a links.

brick tamland

Greenore isnt a Links either

big_drive

Is old head kinsale on your list? Not GUI affiliated but still a must play links

L.O.F.T

big_drive wrote: »

Is old head kinsale on your list? Not GUI affiliated but still a must play links

It's not a links

big_drive

What is it so?

mike12

I took most off the gui website and used the description they gave, Greenore is a funny type of course a good bit of it is a bit linksy but it is not a pure links.
Mike

aster99

L.O.F.T wrote: »

It's not a links

Is Old Head not a links? Always was under the impression it is

Seves Three Iron

As far as I know, the Old Head is termed a 'headland' course as opposed to a links. Played there a while back. Cracking course but lot of Celtic Tiger BS about the place.

neckedit

aster99 wrote: »

Is Old Head not a links? Always was under the impression it is

Your right,It is a links course,
Its called The Old Head Golf Links......

aster99

Seves Three Iron wrote: »

As far as I know, the Old Head is termed a 'headland' course as opposed to a links. Played there a while back. Cracking course but lot of Celtic Tiger BS about the place.

Thanks. I was never aware of that before now

Loads of sh*te attached to the place but still worth playing it once just for the experience

neckedit

aster99 wrote: »

Thanks. I was never aware of that before now

Loads of sh*te attached to the place but still worth playing it once just for the experience

Never heard of a " Headland " course before either, links, heathland, Parkland, Desert, sand, and even snow course, Every thing I look up says its a links.

big_drive

I never realised either that it wasnt a links. Always refered to as a links in Cork

Seves Three Iron

Don't hold me to it lads. But I'd wager a fiver that, technically, the Old Head isn't a links course. As far as I know the strict definition of a links is that it is the area of land that actually 'links' the coastline to the mainland. As in Baltray or the European Club. It's very obvious if you see those courses from above. If you see an overhead of the Old Head it's quite definitely a jutting promontory, joining up to the mainland with a thin sliver of road. I don't think that could be a links per se.

veetwin

Fermoy not a links either.

Davidth88

Very difficult to read that , OP can you change it so each is on it's own line ?

I didn't see

http://www.castlegregorygolflinks.com/

thewobbler

Technically Ardglass isn't a links either - though they'll argue to the ends of the earth that it is.

Greenore is nothing like a links.

Kirkistown Castle in Down should be on it.

mike12

Edit opening post for an easier view. Very hard to define a links. Royal St Gerorge was half a mile from the beach and i would have said that was to far far the sea to be a links but the R&A think it is. Ardglass and Greenore even if they are not links i've played them and they are great courses so don't really mind.
Maybe Kevin seen as though he has played every 18 hole course in the country will have a list.
I think courses like the Old head need/like it to be described as a links for their American clientele.
Just over 50 of them either was so halfway there now.
Mike

MP62

neckedit wrote: »

aster99 wrote: »

Is Old Head not a links? Always was under the impression it is

Your right,It is a links course,
Its called The Old Head Golf Links......

Traditionally a links course was one that was constructed on a sand bank that linked the sea to the arable land, using that criteria the old head is not a links, while it's a magnificent golf course with breathtaking views and some seriously challenging holes, a link course it is not, but maybe you have different criteria that you use or the criteria has changed.

neckedit

MP62 wrote: »

Traditionally a links course was one that was constructed on a sand bank that linked the sea to the arable land, using that criteria the old head is not a links, while it's a magnificent golf course with breathtaking views and some seriously challenging holes, a link course it is not, but maybe you have different criteria that you use or the criteria has changed.

I have no criteria set down to define a Links,.... But in modern terms, a "links course" is more broadly defined by Ron Whitten, the golf course architecture beat writer for Golf Digest, to include golf courses built on sandy soil (whether seaside or not) and that are buffeted by winds. Whitten says a links course must play firm and fast, with sometimes crusty fairways and greens that feature many knolls and knobs to create odd bounces and angles. And, of course, a links course, in Whitten's definition, needs to be relatively treeless with a native rough that is tall and thick.

Now other more esteemed and learned people like Sir Walter Simpson, who was a 19th century Scottish philosopher and a gent who penned the 1887 book "the Art of Golf", defined "links" in his book as,

"The grounds on which golf is played are called links, being the barren sandy soil from which the sea has retired in recent geological times. In their natural state links are covered with long, rank bent grass and gorse. Links are too barren for cultivation: but sheep, rabbits, geese and professionals pick up a precarious livelihood on them."......

There are numerous criteria for a course to be known as a links and there are many opinions that may differ on those criteria, but if we look at the bigger picture, the land I believe that the Old Head is built on was used for grazing and of no arable value, it is a headland or a peninsula, call it what you will that joins is connected to the mainland by a thin piece of land, the 180 acre site itself is exposed to the strong coastal winds that we expect from a links, the firm bouncing fairways and undulating greens along with good bunkering, tick a lot of boxes for it to be called a links, IMO. It def not a parkland, or a Heathland, nor a Desert Course, for sure not a sand course, the only other definition that can be laid upon it is a Links,
To the OP sorry for Hijacking your thread, Great list of tracks you have played, good luck in getting round some more, links or not

FixdePitchmark

mike12 wrote: »

Edit opening post for an easier view. Very hard to define a links. Royal St Gerorge was half a mile from the beach and i would have said that was to far far the sea to be a links but the R&A think it is. Ardglass and Greenore even if they are not links i've played them and they are great courses so don't really mind.
Maybe Kevin seen as though he has played every 18 hole course in the country will have a list.
I think courses like the Old head need/like it to be described as a links for their American clientele.
Just over 50 of them either was so halfway there now.
Mike

Mike ( fair play, at 16 myself).

What would you consider your top 3 ?

mike12

RCD, European for the top 2. But a toss up after that Carne Enniscrone Baltray Rospenna Nairn and Portnoo and Donegal are all super.
Mike

FixdePitchmark

mike12 wrote: »

RCD, European for the top 2. But a toss up after that Carne Enniscrone Baltray Rospenna Nairn and Portnoo and Donegal are all super.
Mike

I've played the handy ones to get to there - why are the great ones so fffing hard to get to.

Did you forget Royal Portrush - or would you not put it in that list ?

I've sort of run out of next to do - Kerry and Donegal a bit of a big one to go for from Dublin.

mike12

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I've played the handy ones to get to there - why are the great ones so fffing hard to get to.

Did you forget Royal Portrush - or would you not put it in that list ?

I've sort of run out of next to do - Kerry and Donegal a bit of a big one to go for from Dublin.

Not played Portpush yet. Donegal is a trip so many courses up there u could do a week easily.
Mike

MP62

neckedit wrote: »

I have no criteria set down to define a Links,.... But in modern terms, a "links course" is more broadly defined by Ron Whitten, the golf course architecture beat writer for Golf Digest, to include golf courses built on sandy soil (whether seaside or not) and that are buffeted by winds. Whitten says a links course must play firm and fast, with sometimes crusty fairways and greens that feature many knolls and knobs to create odd bounces and angles. And, of course, a links course, in Whitten's definition, needs to be relatively treeless with a native rough that is tall and thick.

Now other more esteemed and learned people like Sir Walter Simpson, who was a 19th century Scottish philosopher and a gent who penned the 1887 book "the Art of Golf", defined "links" in his book as,

"The grounds on which golf is played are called links, being the barren sandy soil from which the sea has retired in recent geological times. In their natural state links are covered with long, rank bent grass and gorse. Links are too barren for cultivation: but sheep, rabbits, geese and professionals pick up a precarious livelihood on them."......

There are numerous criteria for a course to be known as a links and there are many opinions that may differ on those criteria, but if we look at the bigger picture, the land I believe that the Old Head is built on was used for grazing and of no arable value, it is a headland or a peninsula, call it what you will that joins is connected to the mainland by a thin piece of land, the 180 acre site itself is exposed to the strong coastal winds that we expect from a links, the firm bouncing fairways and undulating greens along with good bunkering, tick a lot of boxes for it to be called a links, IMO. It def not a parkland, or a Heathland, nor a Desert Course, for sure not a sand course, the only other definition that can be laid upon it is a Links,
To the OP sorry for Hijacking your thread, Great list of tracks you have played, good luck in getting round some more, links or not

You can have a ton of superficial criteria that can for the most part be easily replicated almost anywhere, the one criteria that can't be so easily replicated is sand dunes and naturally occurring marram grass that holds them together, both of which are absent at the old head.
So you can call the old head whatever you like, but a true links it is not.

neckedit

MP62 wrote: »

You can have a ton of superficial criteria that can for the most part be easily replicated almost anywhere, the one criteria that can't be so easily replicated is sand dunes and naturally occurring marram grass that holds them together, both of which are absent at the old head.
So you can call the old head whatever you like, but a true links it is not.

Marram grass is not native to the British Isles, it can be found in most coastal areas of Europe, with strains or subspecies found in North america, in recent years it has been introduced to New Zealand also.
In Scotland, in recent years local communities have started to build and rebuild sand dunes and plant Marram grass in their efforts stop Coastal Erosion,

So While marram grass maybe a feature of a links it seems it may be easier to replicate than you think.

I'm not going to get drawn into an arguement over this, I feel it has enough Criteria to be called a links, you don't, lets leave it there.

MP62

neckedit wrote: »

Marram grass is not native to the British Isles, it can be found in most coastal areas of Europe, with strains or subspecies found in North america, in recent years it has been introduced to New Zealand also.
In Scotland, in recent years local communities have started to build and rebuild sand dunes and plant Marram grass in their efforts stop Coastal Erosion,

So While marram grass maybe a feature of a links it seems it may be easier to replicate than you think.

I'm not going to get drawn into an arguement over this, I feel it has enough Criteria to be called a links, you don't, lets leave it there.

I don't where you are getting your info from but I think you'll find marram grass is native here, and it's the tall tough grass that both the authors you quoted above are talking about as been prevalent in links land.
My point remains that a links course can not be called such without been constructed on anything other then links land.
The old head does not have marram grass so how one can refer to it as a links baffles me.
Also another point to note is that links courses are playable almost all year round, the old head closes from November to April.

moycullen14

big_drive wrote: »

I never realised either that it wasnt a links. Always refered to as a links in Cork

Just because it's near the sea or it's called a links doesn't make it one. It isn't.

Hard to find an exact definition but one that's as good as any is a course that built on the 'links' land between the sea and land that can be used for agricultural purposes. Any links that I've seen has been characterised by sand dunes, it's built on sand and is natural (ie you want a bunker? Dig a hole!).

You'll know a links when you see one!




Not a links


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Links_(golf)

L.O.F.T

neckedit wrote: »

Your right,It is a links course,
Its called The Old Head Golf Links......

It may be called the Old Head Links but it is not a links course. It's physical make up is not the same as a traditional links golf course. The soil that it is sits on is not Links sand based soil. It resembles a links because of its location and the grass used due to the elements that it is exposed to, namely salt water and wind. There is a poster called The_Architect who posts on here who is very knowledgeable and I've dropped him a PM to get his view.

PARlance

moycullen14 wrote: »

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Links_(golf)

How is that guy from Wikilinks getting on anyway?
Still in the Ecuadorian Ambassadors in London?

Funny man

Johnny_Fontane

I've played old head 4 times, and the turf is very 'linksy', there are dunes and the feel of the course is very much a links. I love the fact that you are told not supposed to replace your divots....its very hard anyways, as the turf is sandy and broken up for most shots.

the key element is the wind and there is shed loads of that.

Kevinmarkham

Seves Three Iron wrote: »

Don't hold me to it lads. But I'd wager a fiver that, technically, the Old Head isn't a links course. As far as I know the strict definition of a links is that it is the area of land that actually 'links' the coastline to the mainland. As in Baltray or the European Club. It's very obvious if you see those courses from above. If you see an overhead of the Old Head it's quite definitely a jutting promontory, joining up to the mainland with a thin sliver of road. I don't think that could be a links per se.

MP62 wrote: »

Traditionally a links course was one that was constructed on a sand bank that linked the sea to the arable land, using that criteria the old head is not a links, while it's a magnificent golf course with breathtaking views and some seriously challenging holes, a link course it is not, but maybe you have different criteria that you use or the criteria has changed.

Great list Mike - I like your 1 and 2, and you have a great selection in the runner-up spots. Get yourself to Waterville and Ballybunion (Old).

As has been pointed out you've missed a couple, which is hardly surprising but, not surprisingly, the obvious debate about links vs. non-links kicked off pretty much straight away. Seves and MP62's definitions are how a links course is defined, so several on your list would not be regarded as links by purists (e.g. Galway Bay, Skellig Bay, Greenore).

Old Head calls itself a links because the Americans love links and it helps to raise the club's profile over there. It is not a links. I'd suggest that it's a 'seaside parkland' (in the same way that Blainroe and Wicklow are seaside) located on clifftops. A few people have argued that wind defines a links - an odd one that, because if you play on a hilltop surely you get plenty of wind too.

As for the course playing like a links - that's the designer trying to achieve the 'links effect' - as Montgomerie did at Carton House. Thousands of tons of topsoil were brought in to create Old Head, so it's all manufactured - grasses, dunes, the lot.

That said, Old Head is a course that has to be played - one of our greatest golf experiences.

Ardglass has a few links holes so, not surprisingly, it will pitch itself as a links.

I'd suggest a trip to Kerry as soon as you can manage: stay in Killarney and play Waterville and Dooks, Tralee and then up to Ballybunion's 2 courses. Ceann Sibeal.

The_Architect

Thanks L.O.F.T.

Between many posts, I think most have hit on what defines a links.

It is in essence land reclaimed from the sea that "links" the coast and arable land. It is always sand based. The initial dune systems are created by wind blow. The fore dune will often be small and very sandy before lyme grass and sea couch starts to naturally form once organic material is deposited. These grasses can form roots to a depth of 3m and start to stabilise the sand. Then the main dune ridge will be covered in marram grass, forming roots to a depth of 1m. Wind creates the ridges and undulations and as you move further inland to the older dune systems which are fixed, the finer grasses such as fescues will take over. You need the above soil types and grasses to promote the firm and fast conditions that Whitten is on about. The undulations form naturally although some courses are obviously dramatic and some much flatter (e.g. Lythym which is now half a mile from the sea with houses around but once was right on the coast)...

Old Head is emphatically not a links course being 200m up on a headland on what was heavy soil... Call it what you will. I say headland but essentially it is parkland. There are no true heathlands in Ireland.

One final thing. In the early days all golf courses were called links. Because the seaside was the only place where golf was played (being its natural home), when first golf moved inland, these courses were also referred to as "the links". It's that history that gives license to any club (including Old Head) to put "links" in its title.

FixdePitchmark

The_Architect wrote: »

Thanks L.O.F.T.

Between many posts, I think most have hit on what defines a links.

It is in essence land reclaimed from the sea that "links" the coast and arable land. It is always sand based. The initial dune systems are created by wind blow. The fore dune will often be small and very sandy before lyme grass and sea couch starts to naturally form once organic material is deposited. These grasses can form roots to a depth of 3m and start to stabilise the sand. Then the main dune ridge will be covered in marram grass, forming roots to a depth of 1m. Wind creates the ridges and undulations and as you move further inland to the older dune systems which are fixed, the finer grasses such as fescues will take over. You need the above soil types and grasses to promote the firm and fast conditions that Whitten is on about. The undulations form naturally although some courses are obviously dramatic and some much flatter (e.g. Lythym which is now half a mile from the sea with houses around but once was right on the coast)...

Old Head is emphatically not a links course being 200m up on a headland on what was heavy soil... Call it what you will. I say headland but essentially it is parkland. There are no true heathlands in Ireland.

One final thing. In the early days all golf courses were called links. Because the seaside was the only place where golf was played (being its natural home), when first golf moved inland, these courses were also referred to as "the links". It's that history that gives license to any club (including Old Head) to put "links" in its title.

What is The Heath ?
and the Curragh. Heathlands ?

neckedit

MP62 wrote: »

I don't where you are getting your info from but I think you'll find marram grass is native here, and it's the tall tough grass that both the authors you quoted above are talking about as been prevalent in links land.
My point remains that a links course can not be called such without been constructed on anything other then links land.
The old head does not have marram grass so how one can refer to it as a links baffles me.
Also another point to note is that links courses are playable almost all year round, the old head closes from November to April.

My apologies , I meant to say marram grass is not ONLY native to the British Isles, an excusable typo some might find, Any hoo, I conceed the point of the Old Head not being a true Links in its purist form, Only by pure chance I had guy in my shop who worked there on the building of the course and he gave me a great insight into the course and the Links feel they tried to create,