Juniors in adult competitions

big_drive

Following on from the thread relating to whether or not there should be a gross prize in competitions.

What are the views on juniors taking part in adult competitions?

In our presidents prize a junior had a score equal to the winning score but he was not eligible for any of the top prizes. He was just given a prize for best junior.

Do you think this is ok?

MP62

big_drive wrote: »

Following on from the thread relating to whether or not there should be a gross prize in competitions.

What are the views on juniors taking part in adult competitions?

In our presidents prize a junior had a score equal to the winning score but he was not eligible for any of the top prizes. He was just given a prize for best junior.

Do you think this is ok?

How is this a follow on of the gross prize thread and why do you think it's not ok for individual clubs to decide for themselves.

big_drive

It's a follow on as it's discussing how we feel club competitions should be run and set up in relation to number and category of prizes on offer.

slave1

IMHO the person who has the lowest score should win, the fact they are a junior and payed much less (typically) is irrelevant.
My only stipulation is that they play off proper tees as I know some junior juniors can sometimes play off very far forward tee boxes.

big_drive

This example I have it was everyone off back tees. It bugs me as they had no problem with putting juniors on the bruen team when it suited. But then they exclude the same players from the main club comps

BigChap1759

I think the club are perfectly entitled to have this as a rule - I'm sure the juniors have their own comps and IMHO the amount they pay IS a factor.

mike12

Think if they have acheived a certain handicap 9 in our club they should be allowed to win anything. Think the problem occurs when they start the summer off 28 spend the full summer up at the club and end it on 9 winning every comp along the way.
Mike

aster99

I agree with the point that they could be starting off a very high h/cap and clean up all summer. Then maybe set a certain h/cap barrier and once they've achieved that then they can play away without restriction

But if they have a valid GUI number and handicap i can't see why there should be restrictions. I've no problem with a junior taking the prize, fairplay to them if they're good enough to shot the best score. I think they need to be encouraged and given every chance to improve

Screaminmidget

mike12 wrote: »

Think if they have acheived a certain handicap 9 in our club they should be allowed to win anything. Think the problem occurs when they start the summer off 28 spend the full summer up at the club and end it on 9 winning every comp along the way.
Mike

Is this not the fault of the club??
They shouldn't just hand out 28 handicaps to every junior who joins.

Kace

The issue here relates to the fact that Juniors pay low annual fees and often start at a high(ish) handicap and then improve rapidly, winning all around them - to the chagrin of many other members.

I agree that competition winning should be restricted on this basis, even though my friends and I greatly enjoyed winning all around us when we were younger.

SnowDrifts

BigChap1759 wrote: »

IMHO the amount they pay IS a factor.

Going by that mentality, surely seniors wouldn't be allowed to compete in competitions either?

I think its ridiculous that juniors in my club are not allowed to compete in the President's/Captain's prizes.

Almaviva

aster99 wrote: »

But if they have a valid GUI number and handicap i can't see why there should be restrictions. I've no problem with a junior taking the prize, fairplay to them if they're good enough to shot the best score. I think they need to be encouraged and given every chance to improve

I think there should be restrictions. Unfortunately a valid GUI handicap doesnt mean a handicap reflective of their skill. Handcap competitions are based on the rpemise that all players are handicapped to equalise their chances of winning. Not possible to be perfect of course. People work on their swngs, play more than in the past, go for lessons, etc. But juniors whose handicap and playing history can be short as they take up or get to grips with the game are especially at risk of playing of unrepresentative handicaps. And so are reasonable excluded from winning major prizes.
The best score doesnt win - its the best score minus handicap that wins so if the handicap is wrong, the prize is not really won.

lowelife

Ok so the juniors may spend all summer up the golf club getting more practice than the rest of us, and improving their games and handicaps when they are allowed to play in competitions.

Good for them, I'm jealous and just wish I was in that boat again.

How about the unemployed who have no family ties or such like? They can get up the course every day and and improving their games and handicaps when they are allowed to play in competitions.

Or how about the retired? If the other halfs let them or they have no ties, they can get up the course every day and improving their games and handicaps when they are allowed to play in competitions.

Joe blogs who swings an afternoon out of work on a business trip, but instead goes up the course instead to practice their games and improve their games and handicaps when they are allowed to play in competitions.

I could go on with a 101 senarios that could be for and against all this junior winning major club prizes or not.

The point is the winner is the one with the lowest score.

Roll back to year 1868 Young Tom Morris wins his first Open at the age of 17....still a junior....take the title off him.

Ok I will back out now

Seves Three Iron

I think it's pretty simple lads - if I'm paying 1300 euros a year (which I am) and am being beaten to prizes, of any variety, by a juvenile paying 200 a year, there's something majorly wrong there. I'm finding it a struggle as it is to get that 1300 each year without having my nose rubbed in it.

We used to have a situation where juveniles were allowed win our singles open on a wednesday. Every week it was 44, 46, 47 points winning it by a young lad off 20-something. Made a shambles of the thing and, frankly, was a kick in the pants for some guy who took a half day from work and travelled any sort of distance to play.

What's the big issue with prizes for juveniles anyhow? I came through our juvenile system and was well happy with just playing and getting my handicap down.

SnowDrifts

Seves Three Iron wrote: »

I think it's pretty simple lads - if I'm paying 1300 euros a year (which I am) and am being beaten to prizes, of any variety, by a juvenile paying 200 a year, there's something majorly wrong there. I'm finding it a struggle as it is to get that 1300 each year without having my nose rubbed in it.

Again.. so you think seniors (who also pay reduced subs in most clubs) should not be allowed to compete either?? If not, whats the difference, if its only about money?

lowelife

Seves Three Iron wrote: »

I think it's pretty simple lads - if I'm paying 1300 euros a year (which I am) and am being beaten to prizes, of any variety, by a juvenile paying 200 a year, there's something majorly wrong there. I'm finding it a struggle as it is to get that 1300 each year without having my nose rubbed in it.

We used to have a situation where juveniles were allowed win our singles open on a wednesday. Every week it was 44, 46, 47 points winning it by a young lad off 20-something. Made a shambles of the thing and, frankly, was a kick in the pants for some guy who took a half day from work and travelled any sort of distance to play.

What's the big issue with prizes for juveniles anyhow? I came through our juvenile system and was well happy with just playing and getting my handicap down.

How about Joe Bloggs who plays at the course down the road which is a bit crap and pays €300 a year and he comes up to your course where you pay over 4 times as much, and he wins the clubs Open singles.

Should he not be allowed to win either?

bustercherry

If a junior pays the competition entry fee, then he should be entitled to win as long as they play of same tees. I don't care about what they pay for subscription fees.

Seves Three Iron

Well I'll give you an example of a scenario and you can tell me if you find it acceptable;

A guy travels to play in our open from the other side of Dublin. He brings a pal or two and has a sandwich and a drink in the bar afterwards. Nett worth to the club that day - 60 euros. He sees a juvenile score 47 points in a competition and never comes back again. This is happening wholesale which is why juveniles were eventually restricted. We were left building for the future while struggling for money now.

Again, I don't think juveniles care all that much about prizes. Just want to be out playing and getting their handicaps down.

As for seniors, it's only a personal opinion, but I have no problem with my Dad getting senior membership, which he does, and winning a prize. Like 99% of golf seniors, he's paid his dues over the last 30 years.

BigChap1759

bustercherry wrote: »

If a junior pays the competition entry fee, then he should be entitled to win as long as they play of same tees. I don't care about what they pay for subscription fees.

If they're not allowed to enter senior competitions then they can't pay an entry fee - simples. There should be a junior section running their own events.

BigChap1759

lowelife wrote: »

How about Joe Bloggs who plays at the course down the road which is a bit crap and pays €300 a year and he comes up to your course where you pay over 4 times as much, and he wins the clubs Open singles.

Should he not be allowed to win either?

I couldn't care less about open events - we're talking about the larger prestige competitions and monthly medals etc

moycullen14

I think there are two issues:

First is the rate of descent of handicap for good juniors and that their handicaps tend to lag their real ability. Case in point is a junior (13 years old!) I played with recently. He is off 9 at the moment, down from 16 at the start of the summer and heading for a h/c of 4-5 in the next year or so - as far as I can judge. He is now a much better golfer than me off the same handicap and he will get much better in the near future. He will drop about 11 shots in two years. Nothing hokey about it but because of how handicapping works his 'real' handicap lags his nominal one by 2-3 shots. His handicap progression is something that most adults will never experience (for example, my handicap has varied by 2 shots - up and down - over the last 10 years! A junior in that position wil clean up in prizes while his h/cap is getting down to its steady state. A junior in our club apparently won just over a 1000 euro in vouchers a few years ago.

The second issue is one of pure begrudgery. Adults hate been bested by snotty-nosed teenagers and resent the fact that a 15 yo is a better golfer that they will ever be. Sad, but understandable & true!

lowelife

BigChap1759 wrote: »

I couldn't care less about open events - we're talking about the larger prestige competitions and monthly medals etc

Actually if you read my post and what I quoted, that particular arguement was nothing to do with larger prestige competitions and monthly medals.

bustercherry

BigChap1759 wrote: »

If they're not allowed to enter senior competitions then they can't pay an entry fee - simples. There should be a junior section running their own events.

Fair enough but your missing the point, if they are allowed to enter and have paid the competition fee; then it's irrelevant if they pay a reduced subscription. One point I will make, if the number of reduced subscriptions start to impact tee time availability (and not people getting their preferred times either :rolleyes:), then I would expect a committee to look at things. Most of the points against is pure begrudgery though.

BigChap1759

I agree it seems to be pretty poor management by the club/commitee in question if they hadn't forseen this or made it explicitly clear to the entering juniors that they cannot win prizes. Even worse if it was only decided once the situation arose.

SnowDrifts

Seves Three Iron wrote: »

As for seniors, it's only a personal opinion, but I have no problem with my Dad getting senior membership, which he does, and winning a prize. Like 99% of golf seniors, he's paid his dues over the last 30 years.

Then what about a senior who joined late in life.. and has not "paid his dues" - should he be banned from playing?

Sorry for being pedantic but I will just never take on board the money argument. It smacks of pure begrudgery. I pay full membership and i think it is only fair and right to encourage juniors and intermediates .. after all, they are the club's future.

BigChap1759

Ban seniors as well I say

lowelife

Lets just ban competition altogether, and turn this wonderful gave back into what it is

Fiver a hole anyone?

Luckycharm

A junior is leading our Captains prize (not Greebo for once) after the first round he not allowed win it but can win any of the other prizes.

big_drive

Seves Three Iron wrote: »

Well I'll give you an example of a scenario and you can tell me if you find it acceptable;

A guy travels to play in our open from the other side of Dublin. He brings a pal or two and has a sandwich and a drink in the bar afterwards. Nett worth to the club that day - 60 euros. He sees a juvenile score 47 points in a competition and never comes back again. This is happening wholesale which is why juveniles were eventually restricted. We were left building for the future while struggling for money now.

I find it acceptable to be honest. That guy should be playing the open singles because he wants to enjoy a game with his pals. Winning should not be an issue. If he was put off by the fact that someone else won the competition then his aditude to golf is all wrong. We all like to win but if somebody shoots a better score then they should be congratulated for it.

Russman

bustercherry wrote: »

Most of the points against is pure begrudgery though.

That about sums it up IMO. If someone doesn't like being beaten by a junior then its simple, shoot a better score than them. The golf ball doesn't know how old you are (your putter might though )

Its a bit like the thread a few months ago about handicap cut-offs for inter club and some guys don't like that fact that someone might have improved since the cut-off date.

IMO subscriptions and club finances are another debate. What if a club has different types of member with different subscriptions ? Do they ever compete against each other ?

RandolphEsq

Considering the disparity in fees paid by juveniles/juniors/students/under 28s and those paid by full members it is correct, in my view, that only full members can win the overall prize in a senior event. I have zero problem with any member playing in a full member event but do not think it is fair for them to win the main prizes. For the 'majors' for full members I have no problem with non-full members being excluded from playing those days.

As regards open competitions; no problem with anyone playing and winning, everyone pays the same fee and is competing for that day's prize. Don't like the high handicaps? Play in an open competition with handicap limits.

But my main point in excluding juniors from the prizes is;

1) Membership fees
2) Prestige

GreeBo

in my club your sub determines your playing rights.
a junior can only get on the timesheet from Thursday onwards.
your comp entry is what pays for the prizes.
a juvenile has to be single figures to play at all.

junior/juvenile cannot win majors.

elberry

big_drive wrote: »

Following on from the thread relating to whether or not there should be a gross prize in competitions.

What are the views on juniors taking part in adult competitions?

In our presidents prize a junior had a score equal to the winning score but he was not eligible for any of the top prizes. He was just given a prize for best junior.

Do you think this is ok?

I have no issue with juniors playing adult events and getting the prize their score places them, the juniors who are good enough should be encouraged, some clubs are good at this and others hopeless.
However, many clubs have a reasonable rule that only full members can play the captains and presidents prize which eliminates juniors from entering those 2 events, I think that is as it should be. Most clubs have a seperate event for the juniors in the juniors captains and presidents prize, usually played a few days before the fully paid members event