Fluke

reilig

With the wet year, I'm sure that fluke is going to be a problem. Normally cows would only get a shot of Ivomec or Trodax after housing. This year, in the discussion group, vet recommended that the cows be done for Rumen fluke with Zanil or Levafas, and he recommends that they be done now.

Have 3/4 of the cows done now with Levafas Diamond. The cows are very scoured after it - almost making pure water as dung. Vet recommended not letting them out on fresh aftergrass for a few days because the scouring could cause a cow to have reduced levels of magnesium and there is a higher risk of tetany.

Anyone else doing their sucklers for it?

just do it

Did then for liver fluke a few weeks ago.

Black Smoke

I was thinking about rumen fluke recently as a possible issue this year, even though I have fairly dry land.
Read up a bit on it, and if I recall correctly the manufacurers of the products for rumen fluke insist, it should not be used unless presence of the condition is definitely established. No assumptions and no guess work!!! So I decided not to do mine on that basis:o
I did everything for normal liver fluke though. Wouldn't usually do so till winter housing time.

Actually, read the last page on this link, suggesting in bold letterss, NOT to treat unless clinical signs present. http://www.animalhealthireland.ie/pdf/AHI-RumenFluke-Aug2011.pdf

bob charles

I would be going with Levafas Diamond and a follow up again in 3/4 weeks time, take no notice of the scouring for 48 hrs

One of the clinical signs of rumen fluke can be death, by the time clinical signs are present it can be too late

Black Smoke

bob charles wrote: »

I would be going with Levafas Diamond and a follow up again in 3/4 weeks time, take no notice of the scouring for 48 hrs

One of the clinical signs of rumen fluke can be death, by the time clinical signs are present it can be too late

Hard to believe that to be frank. There should be signs of lack of thrive, energy, appetite etc, in any animal with such a condition. Herding from the main road, one day in three, would be a bigger contributor to finding sudden deaths in the herd. That's the kind of herding that goes on, on a lot of farms. Then there is consternation, when and animal is at near death, when it is seen. Not to mention the constant moaning and groaning you hear, that half my cows that were bulled with AI in May, are showing up bulling in late August. Mostly rubbish ..................... they were bulling all along, but wern't spotted ................. from the road:rolleyes:

pakalasa

By the time you spot the symtoms of liver fluke (and probably stomach fuke too I'd imagine) it's already too late. If what you say is true, then treatment as opposed to prevention would be far more cost effective.

reilig

That's along the line of my vets views . He said that if you wait for clinical signs then it may be too late to treat for it.

He said that physical signs are only visible when the rumen fluke has already caused damage.

To be honest we would be dosing
as a preventative as opposed to a cure. Better to get the fluke at an immature stage than when the animal starts to lose appetite and lose condition.

bob charles wrote: »

I would be going with Levafas Diamond and a follow up again in 3/4 weeks time, take no notice of the scouring for 48 hrs

One of the clinical signs of rumen fluke can be death, by the time clinical signs are present it can be too late

jay gatsby

Where is Lost Covey when we need him???

Black Smoke

reilig wrote: »

That's along the line of my vets views . He said that if you wait for clinical signs then it may be too late to treat for it.

He said that physical signs are only visible when the rumen fluke has already caused damage.

To be honest we would be dosing
as a preventative as opposed to a cure. Better to get the fluke at an immature stage than when the animal starts to lose appetite and lose condition.

Now ye have me worried:mad: Should I rush home with a bottle of stuff and dose all round me
I'm asking myself, since we have had just one "real" bad year, is that enough to generate the conditions for the snail that causes the rumen fluke, to get it's population levels up to the extent that rumen fluke can become a widespread problem Remembering, the rain started to his from about second week of June or so, after a long dry hard spring. How can this snail, leverage such a short window, to create such havoc, in such a time space?

There is quite a bit of talk these days, of ever rising resistance to standard worm doses and the likes due to over use and improper use by farmers.


Same applies to a raft of other medicines in both the human and animal world.

Do I detect the increasing noise of a rumen fluke bandwagon coming over the horizon?
I must confess, I don't know, but my instinct is to sit a little bit tighter on this one. Different perhaps, if my cattle had access to land prone to flooding, and waters then receding, etc,. Now that I guess would be a recipie for proliferation of all kinds of problems. But a wet year (mid June to late August to date) on reasonably dryish land, I guess would not give this snail the chance to form an enormous health threat to your stock.

reilig

Black Smoke wrote: »

But a wet year (mid June to late August to date) on reasonably dryish land, I guess would not give this snail the chance to form an enormous health threat to your stock.

That may describe your land, but mine is the very opposite. Its prone to fluke on the best of years. Therefore what applies to you does not necessarily apply to me.

bob charles

rumen fluke is a widespread problem, trust me. best to consult your local vet who you will be buying the product and get their free advice on local conditions and treatment programs. I have seen/had animal deads from cronic fluke within a few days of seeing a lack of thrift. happened a couple of years ago when I lost two weanlings in the same day. they were treated for fluke about 5 days previous and didn't notice any problems going through the shute.

stanflt

my father always said that our land was too dry for fluke.- last year i started bulk milk sampling and it showed up liver fluke. decided to do a random stoll sample across the herd. it showed both types of eggs in the sample.

i treated with zanil at drying off last year. every time i dryed off cows they got a dose and when they calved they got the second dose

this year im doing endospec (i think) at drying off and zanil as they calve-dont want to be over reliant on one product

did all stock with endospec(ithink) last week when i was weighing

reilig

stanflt wrote: »

my father always said that our land was too dry for fluke.- last year i started bulk milk sampling and it showed up liver fluke. decided to do a random stoll sample across the herd. it showed both types of eggs in the sample.

i treated with zanil at drying off last year. every time i dryed off cows they got a dose and when they calved they got the second dose

this year im doing endospec (i think) at drying off and zanil as they calve-dont want to be over reliant on one product

did all stock with endospec(ithink) last week when i was weighing

Off topic, how did the weights work out? Were you happy?
I have weinlings to weigh, but I have pedigree bulls to score and I want to wait till they are 200 days so want to kill 2 birds with the 1 stone (1 call out charge from ICBF)

kennedy138

test the animals and see the story as said above . dont dose cows for rumen fluke unless it is needed as zanil is very tough on the cows and dont over dose

stanflt

reilig wrote: »

Off topic, how did the weights work out? Were you happy?
I have weinlings to weigh, but I have pedigree bulls to score and I want to wait till they are 200 days so want to kill 2 birds with the 1 stone (1 call out charge from ICBF)

9 out of 164 were behind-all april may calves from this year- have them on their own now getting 2kg meal and fresh after grass every day.

icbf charges are high- glad i bought my own scales and upload the data myself-

NewBeefFarmer

flukiver inj or Trodax inj for cattle?. . . any particular choice? apart from Flukiver been cheaper

razor8

does Zanil just treat rumen fluke or does it cover liver fluke as well?

Bodacious

reilig wrote: »

With the wet year, I'm sure that fluke is going to be a problem. Normally cows would only get a shot of Ivomec or Trodax after housing. This year, in the discussion group, vet recommended that the cows be done for Rumen fluke with Zanil or Levafas, and he recommends that they be done now.

Have 3/4 of the cows done now with Levafas Diamond. The cows are very scoured after it - almost making pure water as dung. Vet recommended not letting them out on fresh aftergrass for a few days because the scouring could cause a cow to have reduced levels of magnesium and there is a higher risk of tetany.

Anyone else doing their sucklers for it?

I used Lefavas Diamond last year and the heifers really didn't eat for 2 days right .., scoured the life out of them!

LostCovey

jay gatsby wrote: »

Where is Lost Covey when we need him???

You called?

jay gatsby

LostCovey wrote: »

You called?

Just teasing LC - seemed like your kind of thread.

Black Smoke

LostCovey wrote: »

You called?

We would all like to know the following!

Have you dosed for rumen fluke, this year?
If not why not? :P

LostCovey

reilig wrote: »

That's along the line of my vets views . He said that if you wait for clinical signs then it may be too late to treat for it.

He said that physical signs are only visible when the rumen fluke has already caused damage.

To be honest we would be dosing
as a preventative as opposed to a cure. Better to get the fluke at an immature stage than when the animal starts to lose appetite and lose condition.

OK< I am certainly not in a position to contradict specific advice offered in good faith by somebody who has stood in your yard, knows your farm and the area. If the Shannon has been getting closer to your cattle, the risk of rumen fluke to your cattle this year may well be a very real one


BUT BUT BUT BUT

- you can't really "test for rumen fluke", as some on this forum have suggested. You can do a test for rumen fluke eggs, but the answer to a positive or a negative result has to be "so what?" A positive says you have at least one adult rumen fluke present. What harm do they do in small (or even large) numbers? None. It is the young larvae, in exceptionally large numbers, that do the harm. They don't lay eggs. Finding eggs certainly confirms you have rumen fluke on your farm, so have the vast majority of Irish farms, and they do no harm on the vast majority of farms because they are in tiny numbers.

- you can't prevent rumen fluke. Nowhere have I ever seen a strategy that will prevent it - in fact the AHI document linked above says this explicitly. There is no dosing programme that will prevent the animal within a day or two, when grazing land where a flood has receded, picking up 20,000 or 30,000 larvae and getting acute rumen fluke disease (there is no chronic disease, like there is with liver fluke). These oxyclozanide-based doses have no residual effects. They kill the rumen flukes in the animal on the day, and if they go out on very heavily infested ground a few days later, they will pick up big burdens, get clinical signs and may die unless treated.

I really don't know how to explain this better, it took me a while to get my head around it, and I realise its not an easy concept to get across.

So here are some of the difficulties:

- there is no reliable test
- there is no reliable prevention
- the dose has no residual effect
- disease is explosive, occurring a week or two after cattle/sheep graze heavily contaminated ground
- the dose has severe (transient) side effects
- the dose doesn't kill immature liver fluke, which are the important stage in autumn

So there is where we are. People doing "preventative dosing" need to look very hard at what their dose will do, and what the risks of dosing are.

If you dose animals you suspect of having rumen fluke DISEASE, then there is a logic - you will kill the larvae if they are there, and get a good response to the dose - this of course is treatment not prevention. There is no prevention other than keeping cattle off land that floods or is prone to flooding.

If you are trying to prevent fluke disease, prevent the preventable one , which is liver fluke.

You can't, in the present state of knowledge, completely prevent rumen fluke disease. You need to be vigilant for it, and jump on it if it appears. The philosophy of "Preventing" it sells gallons of oxyclozanide, scours cows, and produces an odd case of grass tetany, but does not prevent it.



LostCovey

LostCovey

Black Smoke wrote: »

We would all like to know the following!

Have you dosed for rumen fluke, this year?

No

Black Smoke wrote: »

If not why not? :P

See above!

LC

Black Smoke

LostCovey wrote: »

No



See above!

LC

More or less the logic I have used, in deciding not to dose.
One more thing springs to mind, given the severe albeit transient side effects of the dose. Can't be all that good for in calf animals in particular, above any other class of stock:eek:

reilig

Doctor's differ, patients die.

Only Joking LC

I would agree with what you are saying. I know that dosing won't prevent an animal from picking up the larvae.

Our vet is pretty familiar with the area. As part of the whole herd health plans that he is carrying out as part of BTAP for the 60 odd members of the discussion groups in this area who farm a similar type of ground to me, 90% of tests are showing high levels of rumen fluke. He has also followed up on some animals from the area that were salughtered and they too are showing high levels of Rumen fluke. Bearing this, and the land that we farm, in mind, he advised us that dosing for Rumen Fluke would help to prevent the symptoms of Rumen fluke such as lack of thrive etc. He advised that animals in the area that were treated for it are showing much better thrive and general overall health.

This being my basis for carrying out the dosing.

LostCovey wrote: »

OK< I am certainly not in a position to contradict specific advice offered in good faith by somebody who has stood in your yard, knows your farm and the area. If the Shannon has been getting closer to your cattle, the risk of rumen fluke to your cattle this year may well be a very real one


BUT BUT BUT BUT

- you can't really "test for rumen fluke", as some on this forum have suggested. You can do a test for rumen fluke eggs, but the answer to a positive or a negative result has to be "so what?" A positive says you have at least one adult rumen fluke present. What harm do they do in small (or even large) numbers? None. It is the young larvae, in exceptionally large numbers, that do the harm. They don't lay eggs. Finding eggs certainly confirms you have rumen fluke on your farm, so have the vast majority of Irish farms, and they do no harm on the vast majority of farms because they are in tiny numbers.

- you can't prevent rumen fluke. Nowhere have I ever seen a strategy that will prevent it - in fact the AHI document linked above says this explicitly. There is no dosing programme that will prevent the animal within a day or two, when grazing land where a flood has receded, picking up 20,000 or 30,000 larvae and getting acute rumen fluke disease (there is no chronic disease, like there is with liver fluke). These oxyclozanide-based doses have no residual effects. They kill the rumen flukes in the animal on the day, and if they go out on very heavily infested ground a few days later, they will pick up big burdens, get clinical signs and may die unless treated.

I really don't know how to explain this better, it took me a while to get my head around it, and I realise its not an easy concept to get across.

So here are some of the difficulties:

- there is no reliable test
- there is no reliable prevention
- the dose has no residual effect
- disease is explosive, occurring a week or two after cattle/sheep graze heavily contaminated ground
- the dose has severe (transient) side effects
- the dose doesn't kill immature liver fluke, which are the important stage in autumn

So there is where we are. People doing "preventative dosing" need to look very hard at what their dose will do, and what the risks of dosing are.

If you dose animals you suspect of having rumen fluke DISEASE, then there is a logic - you will kill the larvae if they are there, and get a good response to the dose - this of course is treatment not prevention. There is no prevention other than keeping cattle off land that floods or is prone to flooding.

If you are trying to prevent fluke disease, prevent the preventable one , which is liver fluke.

You can't, in the present state of knowledge, completely prevent rumen fluke disease. You need to be vigilant for it, and jump on it if it appears. The philosophy of "Preventing" it sells gallons of oxyclozanide, scours cows, and produces an odd case of grass tetany, but does not prevent it.



LostCovey

LostCovey

Fair enough Reilig - locally adapted expert advice tailored for your farm is hard to argue with.

However, in general, and without prejudice to your rationale above, dosing to prevent rumen fluke has no real basis. it is like trying to prevent a forest fire from starting using buckets of water - you're far better holding onto the treatment till it starts.

Oxyclozanide is very effective as treatment, but killing adult rumen flukes achieves nothing, and if people keep dosing with the one single lonely effective product willy-nilly it'll stop working, and then we will all be up the creek.

LC