Yasser arafat death now a murder inquiry

Sunnyisland

French prosecutors have opened a murder inquiry into the death of Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat, sources have told the French news agency AFP.

His family launched a case last month over claims that he was poisoned with polonium-210, a radioactive element.

Polonium was apparently found on some of Arafat's belongings by Swiss scientists.

The medical records of Arafat, who died near Paris in 2004, say he had a stroke resulting from a blood disorder.

However, many Palestinians continue to believe Arafat was poisoned by Israel because he was an obstacle to peace. Israel has denied any involvement.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-19402767

Who had the most to gain from Yasser Arafat death, hamas,Israel ? Why if he was murdered kill him then,he was 75 and did not look in the best of health ? Anyone any Ideas

imme

Conspiracy Theory or what?

Why is this only coming out now. Did the Palestinians not do an autopsy on the corpse at the time of death.

In the years preceding his death he'd been sidelined and was a marginal figure. This was characterised when his compound was being attacked by Israel.

Sunnyisland

imme wrote: »

Conspiracy Theory or what?

Why is this only coming out now. Did the Palestinians not do an autopsy on the corpse at the time of death.

In the years preceding his death he'd been sidelined and was a marginal figure. This was characterised when his compound was being attacked by Israel.

In 2005, the New York Times obtained a copy of Arafat's medical records, which it said showed he died of a massive haemorrhagic stroke that resulted from a bleeding disorder caused by an unknown infection.

Experts who reviewed the records told the paper that it was highly unlikely that he had died of Aids or had been poisoned.

JustinDee

realies wrote: »

Who had the most to gain from Yasser Arafat death, hamas,Israel ?

Hamas and their allies who poke and prod them, obviously.

Sunnyisland

JustinDee wrote: »

Hamas and their allies who poke and prod them, obviously.

As you well know there is nothing obviously about what happens in the middle east,which is more of a pity. Palestinian officials have long accused Israel of being involved in Arafat's death in which they have always denied, obviously.

wes

Well, Hamas are unlikely (not in that they wouldn't kill Arafat, I am sure they would have been perfectly capable), as the current investigation is due to higher than normal amounts polonium-210 being found on his clothes and effects. Its very unlikely that Hamas would have access to polonium-210, and if Arafat did die due to this, then I think it safe to rule out Hamas.

Then the most likely culprit would be Israel, if it turns out he died due to polonium-210. Having said that, I wouldn't take that to seriously until, there is proof he died that way.

JustinDee

wes wrote: »

Then the most likely culprit would be Israel, if it turns out he died due to polonium-210

Hamas are supported by Hizbullah who in turn are supported by Syria who happen to be Russia and Iran's agent in the region.
More to the theatre of operations in the area than a simplistic A or B choice.

wes

JustinDee wrote: »

Hamas are supported by Hizbullah who in turn are supported by Syria who happen to be Russia and Iran's agent in the region.
More to the theatre of operations in the area than a simplistic A or B choice.

Your making one hell of stretch there imho. Your basically going Hamas -> Hizbullah -> Syria -> Russia, for them to be able to get access to polonium, which imho is a pretty big stretch. There is no reason for anyone to believe that Hamas has access to polonium-210.

If it turns out to be polonium-210, then Israel are the most likely culprit, as they would actually be more likely have access to it. On that basis alone, it make them are far more likely culprit than Hamas.

OS119

wes wrote: »

...On that basis alone, it make them are far more likely culprit than Hamas.

execpt that the Israeli's haven't had a motive to kill Arafat in the last 20 years.

whoever succeeded Arafat was likely to be less able to make peace with Israel than Arafat - he had fought the war, he was the political collossus within the Palestinian movement: however followed him was not going to have the same 'wiggle room' that is going to be neccessary (on both sides) to arrive at a mutually acceptable - though deeply uncomfortable - compromise.

therefore, why would they think that kicking him off his mortal coil might be a good idea?

its all very well to say 'only the Isreali's can do it, so it must be them', but you look a bit silly when you can't match their capability with that other rather important concept - a motive...

wes

OS119 wrote: »

execpt that the Israeli's haven't had a motive to kill Arafat in the last 20 years.

I said, if it turns out he was murdered with polonium, then Israel who would be the most likely to have access to polonium-210, and then imho they are the most likely.

OS119 wrote: »

whoever succeeded Arafat was likely to be less able to make peace with Israel than Arafat - he had fought the war, he was the political collossus within the Palestinian movement: however followed him was not going to have the same 'wiggle room' that is going to be neccessary (on both sides) to arrive at a mutually acceptable - though deeply uncomfortable - compromise.

therefore, why would they think that kicking him off his mortal coil might be a good idea?

its all very well to say 'only the Isreali's can do it, so it must be them', but you look a bit silly when you can't match their capability with that other rather important concept - a motive...

Your arguement is based on Israel wanting peace. There is plenty to suggest that Israel has never wanted peace (with the notable exception of Yitzhak Rabin, who was himself murdered to stop the peace process). During the entire Oslo process, they were building settlements. I would say that Israel desire for peace, is very very questionable due to the constant settlement expansion.

So killing the peace process is a perfectly valid motive, as a greater Israel has been an aim of most Israeli governments. So they did have a potential motive, and they are one of the few who had the capability to carry out a killing with polonium-210.

Now having said that, this is all a big if, sa we don't know if he was murdered.

JustinDee

wes wrote: »

Your making one hell of stretch there imho. Your basically going Hamas -> Hizbullah -> Syria -> Russia, for them to be able to get access to polonium, which imho is a pretty big stretch. There is no reason for anyone to believe that Hamas has access to polonium-210

I'd say it is rather naive to assume that Hizbullah, GSD or the Pasdaran have no linkage with FSB anywhere in the area, let alone mainland Europe.

wes wrote: »

If it turns out to be polonium-210, then Israel are the most likely culprit, as they would actually be more likely have access to it. On that basis alone, it make them are far more likely culprit than Hamas.

Repeating your assumption doesn't make it any more credible.

Personally, I don't think he was killed. Some of the theories that get bandied about from armchair enthusiasts however tend to indicate a (willingful?) lack of insight into every possibility involved.

christmas2012

With everything that goes on between the palenstine and israel im not suprised he was poisioned by an agent,i think there is some sort of disgusting cover up afoot..

wes

JustinDee wrote: »

I'd say it is rather naive to assume that Hizbullah, GSD or the Pasdaran have no linkage with FSB anywhere in the area, let alone mainland Europe.

Links, could mean pretty much anything. Again, it is very very unlikely that Hamas would have access to polonium-210, and you making a massive stretch imho.

JustinDee wrote: »

Repeating your assumption doesn't make it any more credible.

Like linking Hamas all the way up to Russia, so as to say they could have gotten polonium-210 that way........ Your as much guilty of this as I am.

At least Israel has a nuclear reactor, so again I would see them as being more likely. I am not saying the definetly did it, and I am not even saying he was murdered. There are far to many ifs to be certain of anything.

JustinDee wrote: »

Personally, I don't think he was killed. Some of the theories that get bandied about from armchair enthusiasts however tend to indicate a (willingful?) lack of insight into every possibility involved.

I don't actually disagree with you here. This sort of thing does lead to conspiracy theories.

The only reason, that I view this one more credibly, is due to the polonium-210 being found on his effects, but even then I wouldn't claim he was murdered. However, I do think that the potential of murder does need to be looked into, on the basis of this new evidence.

JustinDee

wes wrote: »

Links, could mean pretty much anything. Again, it is very very unlikely that Hamas would have access to polonium-210, and you making a massive stretch imho

Anyone on the ground in alliance with those I have pointed out already has access to any resources, particularly in Europe.
You really have to take a step back and stop thinking of Hamas as sole participants capable of such an action, wherever it may take place.

seamus

Could go either way tbh, even if they do prove that he was assassinated.

It could be interpreted that Israel were worried about Arafat's growing respectability and political acceptance as the figurehead and leader of a Palestinian nation, such that they might soon have to concede part of Israel to a new Palestinian nation. If Arafat was removed, then the area would turn to fighting and turmoil. I don't think Israel have ever tried to pretend that they don't want to eliminate the Palestinians from Israel. If Gaza and the West Bank are in political turmoil, then Israel can justify their attacks on the Palestinians.

At the same time, the Palestinians are in turmoil, so it could equally have been a Palestinian faction, upset at the possibility of a truce with Israel, decided to eliminate Arafat and take control of the conflict. As pointed out, most of these factions would have contacts and resources outside of Palestine to accomplish this.

The Israel explanation is quite conspiracy theory stuff, because one would assume that if peace was a possibility, then any country would jump at it. But I wouldn't be so sure in the case of Israel. What they want at the end of the day, I reckon, is the complete annihilation of the Palestinians so they can claim all of the land.

wes

JustinDee wrote: »

Anyone on the ground in alliance with those I have pointed out already has access to any resources, particularly in Europe.
You really have to take a step back and stop thinking of Hamas as sole participants capable of such an action, wherever it may take place.

Again, what you saying in unlikely. I doubt anyone like Russia etc would give them polonium-210, which only a few countries have access to.
I wouldn't rule it out, just that I would find it unlikely.

seamus

wes wrote: »

Again, what you saying in unlikely. I doubt anyone like Russia etc would give them polonium-210, which only a few countries have access to.
I wouldn't rule it out, just that I would find it unlikely.

Alexander Litvinenko.

Proof that at least one Russian agency had access to polonium-210 and used it for assassination. So why not use it for Arafat? They wouldn't have to hand it over to Hamas - there's no reason why a Russian agent couldn't have done the work.

The Litvinenko case itself was groundbreaking in that it had never been known to occur before, so it stands to reason that if the same method was used for Arafat two years beforehand, no-one would have even thought to check for radiation.

There are differences of course - Arafat's illness wasn't really consistent with radiation poisoning, except for the speed at which he degraded. Also Litvinenko's illness was always going to raise suspicions as he was relatively young without any known problems, yet this illness crippled him in a matter of days.

wes

seamus wrote: »

Alexander Litvinenko.

Proof that at least one Russian agency had access to polonium-210 and used it for assassination. So why not use it for Arafat? They wouldn't have to hand it over to Hamas - there's no reason why a Russian agent couldn't have done the work.

I know the Russian's have it, but they don't really have a motive to kill Arafat, and they also don't have much reason to help Hamas to kill him either. I am not saying it's impossible, just unlikely that Russia would help Hamas in this fashion.

JustinDee

wes wrote: »

I know the Russian's have it, but they don't really have a motive to kill Arafat, and they also don't have much reason to help Hamas to kill him either

Really? No motivation whatsoever?
Given a PLO/Fatah association with recognition of Israel and agreement upon borders, infrastructure and alliances, exactly which nation's leader allied to the other side of the coin is going to let themselves be the one who undid the 'work' of the previous six decades, especially of the Cold War??

As said, simply naive.

wes

JustinDee wrote: »

As said, simply naive.

I see no motive for Russia killing the man. They would get nothing out of it at all. Your presented motive doesn't make any sense either. Undoing "cold war gains" don't mean anything, unless you can show what gain's they would lose at this point, that they didn't already lose under Yeltsin.

JustinDee

wes wrote: »

I see no motive for Russia killing the man. They would get nothing out of it at all.

Their allies in the region (such as Syria, Hizbullah and also Iran, in fact) have much to gain from any destabilised talks with Israel.

But you won't...sorry...don't see that.

Nodin

I'll just say its a bit pointless getting into the whodunnit before its known if anything was in fact done - wait until the autopsy at the very least.

golfball37

JustinDee wrote: »

Hamas are supported by Hizbullah who in turn are supported by Syria who happen to be Russia and Iran's agent in the region.
More to the theatre of operations in the area than a simplistic A or B choice.

Hamas and Hezbolla may have a common enemy but they most certainly would be at war with each other if Israel didn't exist. Hamas are 100% Sunni and Hezbollah 100% Shiite.

JustinDee

golfball37 wrote: »

Hamas and Hezbolla may have a common enemy but they most certainly would be at war with each other if Israel didn't exist. Hamas are 100% Sunni and Hezbollah 100% Shiite.

Not really the point though. They do have Israel as a common enemy to unite their warped causes. Hamas receives Pasdaran help, even with Iran being a teensy weensy bit Shi'ite.

JustinDee

Nodin wrote: »

I'll just say its a bit pointless getting into the whodunnit before its known if anything was in fact done - wait until the autopsy at the very least.

Absolutely. As I said, I don't even think he was killed. Some of the comments on relations of PLO/Fatah's enemies however are what I'd called naive at best.

wes

JustinDee wrote: »

Their allies in the region (such as Syria, Hizbullah and also Iran, in fact) have much to gain from any destabilised talks with Israel.

But you won't...sorry...don't see that.

Ok, and Russia would help them do this because....... You are suggesting that Russia will help these guys out no matter what, which is imho naive. Also, using a method that could be traced back to them as well.

Anyway, as I said before, we don't know if Arafat was murdered even. So all this is just pointless speculation.

JustinDee

wes wrote: »

Ok, and Russia would help them do this because....... You are suggesting that Russia will help these guys out no matter what, which is imho naive. Also, using a method that could be traced back to them as well

I wasn't even specifically referring to this particular method of poisoning, so you can calm down. I was mentioning the complicity of proxies such as Russia in the activities of Syria, Hizbullah, Hamas and the Pasdaran in the region. It isn't a case of "no matter what" but rather, "in their own best interest".

You're welcome.

OS119

wes wrote: »

...Anyway, as I said before, we don't know if Arafat was murdered even. So all this is just pointless speculation.

you were quite happy to speculate when you thought you could get away with blaming Israel without any supporting facts or opposing views...

Arafat had lots of enemies, none of whom would of been distraught at the sight of his blood - he was also an old, sick man who's been in the ground for 8 years. given that its unlikely anyone is going to jump up and down shouting 'it was me!', i see this as going nowhere.

Black Swan

imme wrote: »

Conspiracy Theory or what?

seamus wrote: »

The Israel explanation is quite conspiracy theory stuff...

MOD COMMENT:
Please be advised that we have a specific forum and audience that may be better suited to comment on this thread. Moved to the CT forum locked, so that the mods may review it for appropriateness.

humanji

Thread re-opened. Sorry for the delay.

studiorat

wes wrote: »

Again, what you saying in unlikely. I doubt anyone like Russia etc would give them polonium-210, which only a few countries have access to.
I wouldn't rule it out, just that I would find it unlikely.

http://unitednuclear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_5&products_id=819

It seem if you have the internet you can buy it.

Run_to_da_hills

Looks like they are now making advances on this one.

Getting the Russians in on it.

Should be interesting.

http://rt.com/politics/yasser-arafat-russia-israel-exhumation-499/

JustinDee

Run_to_da_hills wrote: »

Looks like they are now making advances on this one.

Getting the Russians in on it.

Should be interesting

If a murder was ever proven, I don't think anti-Fatah and anti-Israel factions would like the findings.

In the meantime, Russia still has some explaining to do on its refusal to co-operate on the Hariri assassination investigation in Lebanon.

Monty Burnz

JustinDee wrote: »

In the meantime, Russia still has some explaining to do on its refusal to co-operate on the Hariri assassination investigation in Lebanon.

You forget that in CT mirror-world, the Russians are the good guys, election rigging does not take place there, and Putin has not personally salted away billions of dollars through corruption.

weisses

Monty Burnz wrote: »

You forget that in CT mirror-world, the Russians are the good guys,

Where is CT mirror world ?

Duiske

Arafat's remains being exhumed.

http://www.independent.ie/breaking-news/world-news/workers-start-to-open-arafat-grave-3296718.html

Run_to_da_hills

If polonium-210 is discovered in his remains, there couldn't be a better timing. :eek: