RIC History

dubhthach

I'd be interested in a seperate thread specifically about the RIC. In the context of UK policing at the time the RIC was quite unusual in that:

1. It was a fully armed policeforce
2. It's organisation structure/uniform was paramilitary in nature

One could equate it with the Gendarmerie & Carabinieri in France and Italy. One interesting feature I think is that they had their own specific version of the Lee Enfield Carbine (shorten version of famous rifle). Specifically it supported the mounting of a bayonet. The standard "Lee Enfield Carbine" didn't support a bayonet as it wasn't seen as necessary with a carbine. If you ask me that somewhat emphasies the military aspects of the RIC, which were continued on in succesor organisations such as the RUC and in the B Specials in particular.





Photo from Dungarvan circa 1903, not the Bayonet in the Scabbard on the Constable belt.


Here's an older photo of a group of RIC men with Carbines and fixed bayonets.



RIC inspection during byelection in Derry (1913)





The PSNI on their website even mention this "quasi-miltary" structure of the RIC.

http://www.psni.police.uk/index/about-us/police_museum/history_of_policing.htm

The Constabulary of Ireland carried out a full range of policing tasks, but its most important task was that of security, due to the ever-present threat of nationalist insurrection. Due to this it was organised as a colonial constabulary and as an armed, quasi-military force, rather than along the lines of other conventional police forces in the British Isles.

In 1867 the constabulary was given a royal title for its part in suppressing the Fenian Uprising of that year and became the Royal Irish Constabulary (RIC), the first royal police force and a model for a number of police forces throughout the world.

Judgement Day

Really interesting pictures. It won't surprise some posters here that I had family in the RIC but it was they who caught the emigrant ship rather than the Fenians.

dubhthach

Judgement Day wrote: »

Really interesting pictures. It won't surprise some posters here that I had family in the RIC but it was they who caught the emigrant ship rather than the Fenians.

While googling around I came across the following in Google Books:
The history of the Royal Irish Constabulary by Robert Curtis, County Inspector RIC (published 1871!)

http://books.google.ie/books?id=SrkvAAAAMAAJ&ots=xKS8-y7EHd&dq=%22royal%20irish%20constabulary%22&pg=PR3#v=onepage&q=%22royal%20irish%20constabulary%22&f=false

Covers the early years and the foundation of the force.

Judgement Day

I have this out of print title http://www.fourcourtspress.ie/product.php?intProductID=273 published in 1999 on my list.

The Royal Irish Constabulary
A complete alphabetical list of officers and men, 1816-1922
Jim Herlihy

Some 85,000 officers and men served in the RIC and its predecessor force in the period 1816 to 1922. The core genealogical information on all these policemen is contained in the original forty-two volume RIC General Registers of Service and four-volume Officers' Registers for which the present volume provides a printed index.
This book consists of introductory chapters on how to access original RIC Registers, held in the Public Records Office at Kew, in Surrey, England, and microfilm copies of these accessible in the National Archives, Dublin, Ireland, and via the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints Family History Centres. The RIC Microfiche Index and the RIC Database are also discussed.
This is followed by the complete list of surnames, Christian names and RIC service numbers of all 83,743 rank and file RIC men. In the case of RIC officers the book contains all 1681 RIC officers' surnames and Christian names and identifies whether the officers entered the RIC officer class by cadetship or were promoted through the ranks.

dubhthach

Back before Cigarette boxes had health warnings, the original Marlboro Man!

dubhthach

Going on early group photo looks like they were armed with Martini Henry RIC Carbines. Look at the size of that bayonet!


RIC shooting practise in Waterford circa 1902


RIC marching in Cork circa 1910


In Cork again this time around 1900


Mixed RIC and Black & Tan raiding party leaving Dungarvan Castle in 1920, note Lewis gun on the Crossley Tender:

pedroeibar1

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pedroeibar1

Judgement Day wrote: »

Really interesting pictures. It won't surprise some posters here that I had family in the RIC but it was they who caught the emigrant ship rather than the Fenians.

+1 Great photos. No ancestors in the RIC, but had a few who shot at them though.

SaoriseBiker

dubhthach wrote: »

While googling around I came across the following in Google Books:
The history of the Royal Irish Constabulary by Robert Curtis, County Inspector RIC (published 1871!)

http://books.google.ie/books?id=SrkvAAAAMAAJ&ots=xKS8-y7EHd&dq=%22royal%20irish%20constabulary%22&pg=PR3#v=onepage&q=%22royal%20irish%20constabulary%22&f=false

Covers the early years and the foundation of the force.

Well done dubhthach, clearly you have opened up a new insight into the type of paramilitary and oppresive force the RIC were, clearly they weren't the alleged friendly Bobby who got plucked footballs out of the tree and helped old ladies across the road etc. They also were the main force carrying out evictions during the land war, causing a deeper hatred of them across nationalist Ireland -



The DMP's heorics during the Great Lockout in beating Dubliners around the streets shouldn't be forgotten either.

dubhthach

Well "Bloody Sunday" during the lockout involved the DMP (Dublin Metropolitian Police) and not the RIC. The DMP were unarmed and existed until 1925.

SaoriseBiker

dubhthach wrote: »

Well "Bloody Sunday" during the lockout involved the DMP (Dublin Metropolitian Police) and not the RIC. The DMP were unarmed and existed until 1925.

Yes, genuine mistake. Excellent posts dubhthach, two good threads on the RIC, though I'd doubt if I will be posting much longer as I have made my feelings known about what I thought of closing down the poll on commerating the RIC in a PM !!!!!

P. Breathnach

Just a language point reflective of the quasi-military nature of the RIC: it is still common enough in Ireland (particularly among older people) to refer to police stations as "barracks".

pedroeibar1

dubhthach wrote: »

One could equate it with the Gendarmerie & Carabinieri in France and Italy. One interesting feature I think is that they had their own specific version of the Lee Enfield Carbine (shorten version of famous rifle). Specifically it supported the mounting of a bayonet. The standard "Lee Enfield Carbine" didn't support a bayonet as it wasn't seen as necessary with a carbine. If you ask me that somewhat emphasies the military aspects of the RIC, which were continued on in succesor organisations such as the RUC and in the B Specials in particular.

The Gendarmerie and Carabinieri (both mean+/- ‘armed men’) in France and Italy report to the Ministry for Defense; the police/policia report to the Min. for Justice and in France the CRS report to the President. As the RIC reported to Dublin Castle it is fair comparison with gendarmerie/carabinieri.

The carbine rifle evolved for mounted troops and later for urban situations, in both instances size/space in which to ‘swing’ it was at a premium. For policing actions, inevitably crowd situations, the short barrel (inaccurate) was not an issue at close range. Carbines rarely had bayonets, but I suggest that the bayonet length for the police Lee Enfield carbines was extra long to compensate for the carbine’s short barrel, giving better 'reach'.

WW Greener developed late 1800's a special shotgun for the colonial police market – a carbine, martini action with a strange ammunition configuration (a necked 14bore cartridges) to prevent/minimise stolen guns from being fired at their rightful owners. Very popular in Egypt and also used by other colonial police forces. I don’t know if they were issued in Ireland.

SaoriseBiker

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Just a language point reflective of the quasi-military nature of the RIC: it is still common enough in Ireland (particularly among older people) to refer to police stations as "barracks".

Yes indeed it is, memories can run strong down the country. My grandparents were from north Leitrim, Manorhamilton. I hazily remember my grandmother telling me of a house a few doors up from theirs where an ex RIC man and his family were still living ( in the 1970's). She told me that on seeing the papers on some atrocity such as the burning down of Cork or Bloody Sunday in Croke Park, an enraged crowd ran around the town stoning the windows of any RIC man's house and local unionists (who tended to be the wealthier shop owners, bank managers etc). My grand mother was sympathetic to this RIC man's family as a mother she would have felt for the RIC man's wife and young family must have been terrified inside of course, but in the heat of the situation she also could understand the reactions of the enraged public. Leitrim would have been quite a Republcian area, I have heard it said it was not unknown for certain pubs to refuse to serve an ex RIC or British soldiers up until the 1950's.

dubhthach

I did find mention of the RIC been used as a template for other colonial police forces in India and Hong Kong. For example:
The localization of the Hong Kong police force, 1842–1947

It's behind a paywall unfortunately, however here is a image of first page which mentions the RIC heritage of the Hong Kong Police

dubhthach

P. Breathnach wrote: »

Just a language point reflective of the quasi-military nature of the RIC: it is still common enough in Ireland (particularly among older people) to refer to police stations as "barracks".

Some of the barracks were impressive looking buildings that's for sure. I see in the National Library of Ireland collection the following two:

Fiddown Co. Killkenny


On Google Streetview:
https://maps.google.com/maps?q=Fiddown,+Ireland&hl=en&ll=52.331327,-7.313762&spn=0.008392,0.042701&sll=52.25061,-7.098198&sspn=0.074195,0.170803&t=h&hnear=Fiddown,+County+Kilkenny,+Ireland&z=15&layer=c&cbll=52.331224,-7.313776&panoid=WP6po3L_d0LoJCPbOORamA&cbp=12,72.08,,0,0.83

Killarney Barracks (since demolished)

pedroeibar1

A more spectacular one is Cahirsiveen
http://www.theoldbarracks.com/

Snickers Man

pedroeibar1 wrote: »

+1 Great photos. No ancestors in the RIC, but had a few who shot at them though.

Are you sure? I had one great grandfather in the RIC, and from the online census his father-in-law, ie my great great grandfather was also in the force.

Another great uncle won a war of independence medal, and later became a Broy Harrier when Dev recruited loads of ex republicans into the Special Branch in the 1930s.

So ancestors/relatives on both sides.

All good Catholic boys, of course.

I reckon many Irish people today would have a similar speckied heritage. If they knew where to look.

pedroeibar1

Snickers Man wrote: »

Are you sure? .........

I reckon many Irish people today would have a similar speckied heritage. If they knew where to look.

Yes, I’m sure. I long ago hit a brick wall at 1797 on my direct paternal line, I’m back to early 1800’s on most others. I have full details on all direct ancestors back to my eight ggfathers all born 1820-1837, not a uniform (RIC) among them. An uncommon surname is a big help, cuts down the work considerably;))

On my male/surname side there were several Fenians, frequently noted in RIC files/newspaper reports/PQs in Westminster. Some of their sons/grandsons/granddaughters were IRB/IRA in Tipperary, active with Breen and Treacy and a few are mentioned by name in their books. Collateral branches had a Conservative MP and another was heavily involved (well-documented) with the ‘All for Ireland Party’ & Tim Healy; coincidentally my maternal g.grandfather worked in Mallow and was a neighbour & close friend of William O’Brien. Also have Redmondites on my mother’s side & a 'Young Irelander'; one (direct) went to America for a while until things cooled down.

It was through my ancestry research that I developed an interest in history (dropped it at Inter Cert); still have ‘loads’ to learn.

nuac

Many still refer to Garda stations as barracks

tac foley

I'm very pleased to see that some of you have had success in finding out mre of your ancestors' history. I've had none at all except getting hold of a copy of my father's BC, and seeing a mention of the family in Cork in the 1911 census.

Before that, nothing at all.

My grandfather was a clerk in the Cork Steam Packet Company - surely there is a way to find out more than just that?

tac

RGM

tac foley wrote: »

I'm very pleased to see that some of you have had success in finding out mre of your ancestors' history. I've had none at all except getting hold of a copy of my father's BC, and seeing a mention of the family in Cork in the 1911 census.

Before that, nothing at all.

My grandfather was a clerk in the Cork Steam Packet Company - surely there is a way to find out more than just that?

tac

If you post in the genealogy forum with a request, people are generally willing to help out and at least guide you in the right direction.

dubhthach

Another picture of armed RIC I came across online. Rifle party in Glenarm County Antrim, circa 1870. I don't know what's more impressive the size of the "sword-bayonets" or the beards on some of the men.

mattjack

My great x5 grandfather was the commanding officer of the RIC unit in the Fenian Battle of Tallaght in 1867.He fought against Napoleon before that and is buried in Glasnevin cemetry.

Fratton Fred

What sort of person joined the RIC? Were they just men doing a job, were they particularly loyal to the crown, or were they a mix?

Would they generally have been protestant or catholic?

dubhthach

Fratton Fred wrote: »

What sort of person joined the RIC? Were they just men doing a job, were they particularly loyal to the crown, or were they a mix?

Would they generally have been protestant or catholic?

I would imagine all sorts tbh, sort of like way you had all sorts joining the British Army once recruitment of Catholics were allowed officially in the 1790's.

After all it was a job. Interesting though to see if there anything available online source wise regarding general demographics of the RIC. eg. for example difference between standard enlisted men and those who were in command etc.

P. Breathnach

I recently looked at some RIC records for genealogical purposes. While I was concentrating on finding one record, quite a few others passed before my eyes on the microfilm reader. I formed the impression that the men recruited were fairly representative of the population generally (well, the literate portion of the population): farmers' or labourers' or shopworkers' sons.

pedroeibar1

I’ve come across one (early 1900s) on a local history project – he was a tenant farmers son, a Catholic from a ‘steady’ family, and had a sister and a brother working in a local ‘Big House’. He also had a sideline as an insurance agent when he retired, suspect but do not know if he had this role when in service.

mattjack

P. Breathnach wrote: »

I recently looked at some RIC records for genealogical purposes. While I was concentrating on finding one record, quite a few others passed before my eyes on the microfilm reader. I formed the impression that the men recruited were fairly representative of the population generally (well, the literate portion of the population): farmers' or labourers' or shopworkers' sons.

The RIC man in my family came from an old wealthy Catholic family, they owned the 'large house' in the area with a lot of land and employed a lot of locals as well as being landlords.
From what I can see there was always a soldier in each generation, this man returned from fighting in Spain and then joined the RIC.His son also joined.

RGM

Fratton Fred wrote: »

What sort of person joined the RIC? Were they just men doing a job, were they particularly loyal to the crown, or were they a mix?

Would they generally have been protestant or catholic?

I don't have a source, but I remember reading that the percentage of catholics steadily increased from about 50/50 in the beginning to over 75 percent catholic by time of the rising.

My great-great-grandfather's brother was RIC in the 1800s and two of the brother's sons followed in his footsteps. One resigned in 1920 . The other was shot and killed by future National Army Chief of Staff Michael Brennan in 1921. The family came from working-class farmers up in the north of Donegal.

For me, I shy away from generalizations. I don't like when people refer to an entire group of people as one entity. To say that the RIC were "bad" or "good" is overly simplistic. You just don't know, each man was his own person and had his own reasons.

It's a subject I plan to read up on, for sure.

snafuk35

In 1919 when the War of Independence start the majority of the RIC would have been Catholic, mostly nationalist in outlook, many would have been members of the GAA and sympathetic to Home Rule or an Irish Republic. They would have been torn between their duty to enforce the law and their politics. The highest ranking RIC were Protestant and Unionist in outlook.

When two RIC were killed at Soloheadbeg by Dan Breen and Sean Treacy and their gang many people who supported Sinn Féin and and had only just voted in the General Election of 1918 for an Irish Republic would have still been horrified and the Catholic Church were highly outraged. However as British repression of Sinn Féin enforced by the RIC began to bite and some RIC murder gangs formed to killed activists and IRA members and terrorized civilians in revenge for the assassination of their comrades, the mood changed. People who had only a few years before cursed the most radical elements of the Irish Volunteers who had refused to fight in World War I and who had taken part in the Easter Rising or been rounded up in the aftermath, turned against the Crown and became fully fledged Republicans.

The boycott and killing of RIC men intimidated many RIC out of the job and the force effectively collapsed and local barracks were burned when they were evacuated. The introduction of the Black and Tans and Auxilliaries and their brutality toward the Irish population basically eliminated any residual support for the RIC among the ordinary Irish population outside of Ulster. Even people who still staunch Unionists in southern Ireland or Home Rulers and despised Sinn Féin were disgusted by the conduct of the Tans and the Auxies and became supporters of the Republic. There was also fear and coercion used by local IRA units against locals who did not play ball and of course the homes of loyalists, both rich and poor, were burned.

Famously in Listowel, a number of Irish born RIC walked off the job as an senior officer named Smyth advocated shooting anyone with their hands in the pockets as a suspected republican. While tens of thousands were sworn into the IRA, the reality is that a tiny minority actually took part in fighting the Tans and while people may have been troubled by the violence and business of killing men in cold blood, they gave them refuge when they were on the run.

That said still much of the country except for Dublin, Cork, Tipperary and Limerick was relatively quite - the odd ambush or shooting but nothing as intense as what happened in martial law areas. After the truce, the ranks of the IRA swelled and there were continuing killings of RIC men and their spies in revenge for what had gone on during the Tan War and these opprtunistic types of revenge killings persisted during the Civil War. A good number of RIC left Ireland and got jobs with dominion and colonial police forces.

The Gardaí and the Free State Army were swelled with some ex-RIC men and many ex-British Army soldiers who had been persecuted by the IRA during the Tan War or had stayed out of the fight like most Irish people did. Men who had been in the IRA or had served with the Republican Police found themselves working with former enemies. This was true of the Garda Special Branch which included members of Collins' intelligence agency and veteran G men from the DMP. The die-hard IRA sadly simply saw no difference between the new state and old administration - same personnel but new uniforms and a new flag but still servants of the Crown.

In many country areas one gets the feeling there is still an odd unspoken contempt for the forces of law and order as if a residue for Fenianism, the Land War and the attitude to the RIC from the War of Independence persists and is now directed at Gardaí.