Saorview/Freesat Combi Box for Parents

Thargor

Hi, I need a combi box that's very simple to use for my parents who haven't the slightest clue about anything technical, for example:

-Must be able to record with the minimum of fuss to a usb key or 2.5" hdd, basically no external power supply, having to plug in and turn on an external powered hdd to record or playback something will be too much for them.

-Must have all the channels in custom order with no having to switch between Freesat/Saorview modes or anything like that.

-Must have a clean, simple user interface with no tricks or workarounds like you get on a lot of Chinese media players if you know what I mean, the simpler the better.

What would you recommend based on those criteria please? As cheap as possible aswell.

While Im at it whats the smallest size dish Id get away with using for this in South Galway? A lot of our neighbors seem to have very small dishes...

And finally, who/where is the best retailer for buying Satellite stuff from these days?

Thanks for any help.

St Senan

There is no such combi box approved or unapproved that has Freesat built into them. All there is are 2-3 Saorview approved combi boxes with free to air satellite tuners or numerous unapproved Mpeg4 combi boxes with free to air satellite tuners. Neither of these will auto retune when the satellite channels change frequencies or transponders which is a bummer for people who are not technically handy.

Thargor

Oh seriously? How often does that happen?

Thargor

Also I meant free to air satellite in Ireland, BBC/Sky News etc, not specifically Freesat, don't know much about it myself sorry.

STB

Thargor wrote: »

Oh seriously? How often does that happen?

Not often. And even then you update it with a USB Key.

The likes of the Ferguson Ariva 150/250 will work for you. Your parents probably dont want a system where you have one saorview box, one freesat box and have to switch between the two either. Lots of remotes. Also they are tied down to the freesat proprietary menu on the satellite side. HD Combo boxes are customisable mixing Saorview and the UK Channels in the one list in the order that you want.

Your insistence on using a USB Key rather than larger space drive for recording will be an issue. This is due to the amount of space that would be used up fairly quickly. There are also restriction as to what you can watch whilst recording - its basically record Saorview and watch Satellite and vice versa.

Another drawback (of all combos) is that there is only 7 day epg for Saorview BUT only now and next epg data for the satellite stations. You would have to use the timer function to record anything in the future. Most people used to VCRs wont find that too taxing. For the Irish stations they have 7 day epg which means you can press the record button in the epg menu and it will record for you.

The main advantages of HD Combo boxes is Saorview and FTA UK Channels in one channel list, one remote control. If you get the Ariva 250, its remote control allows you to program other devices like the Tv etc (for powering off) a true one remote unit.

The Channels you will get (there are more - but typical)

St Senan

Thargor wrote: »

Oh seriously? How often does that happen?

No one really knows how often. Afaik the last shuffle around with channels affected the true movies, kids and pop music. Before that the last big change was channel 5.

Thargor

That sounds perfect STB, what about a 250 GB 2.5" hdd that runs from USB power, will they be okay?

Is that the best one on the market in your opinion?

Thanks for the answers anyway.

EDIT: By the way, does anyone know what size dish Id need in South Galway? Would I get away with less than 60cm?

STB

Thargor wrote: »

That sounds perfect STB, what about a 250 GB 2.5" hdd that runs from USB power, will they be okay?

Is that the best one on the market in your opinion?

Thanks for the answers anyway.

EDIT: By the way, does anyone know what size dish Id need in South Galway? Would I get away with less than 60cm?

Its far from perfect, but is the best in the affordable bracket right now. I say that from the simplistic point of view. There are linux boxes that are more powerful but would most certainly not be parent friendly.

60cm dish will be fine for UK channels. You might pick one up for €25 with a quad LNB on adverts. Cable and F Connectors would be extra.

Yes it will power a USB drive (although independently powered drives are recommended)

Satellite.ie and Satworld sell the Arivas. Link

Ariva 250 thread

Johnboy1951

For best and most reliable recording and playback use an independently powered fast external HDD.

Thargor

I know its better but Im just wondering if Id get away with the 2.5" powered from the USB slot? It will only be used to record something once a week or so, it wont be getting heavy use.

zg3409

It depends on how much power it draws. As already said it is not recommended.

dodzy

Thargor wrote: »

I know its better but Im just wondering if Id get away with the 2.5" powered from the USB slot? It will only be used to record something once a week or so, it wont be getting heavy use.

32GB USB stick in the rear usb port of the unit. Cheap and cheerful. If not recording too much ( once per week ) it'll last a while...and if you visit as frequently as you should, you can reformat it periodically

Thargor

Excellent stuff, thanks everybody.

zg3409

dodzy wrote: »

32GB USB stick in the rear usb port of the unit. Cheap and cheerful. If not recording too much ( once per week ) it'll last a while...and if you visit as frequently as you should, you can reformat it periodically

Reformatting will not fix a worn USB stick. The problem is the memory type (flash) has a limited number of write lifespan. They attempt to increase the life by wiring data in different places each time but eventually parts of the memory will stop working from wear and tear.

The problem is worse on boxes that automatically have "instant pause" as they continously record just in case you need to pause or rewind live TV. Sky boxes do this as so do many newer recording boxes. Some have the option to turn it off.

STB

zg3409 wrote: »

The problem is worse on boxes that automatically have "instant pause" as they continously record just in case you need to pause or rewind live TV. Sky boxes do this as so do many newer recording boxes. Some have the option to turn it off.

The Arivas have an option on the record menu called PVR Setting, where you can turn "Timeshift" off, hence your drive or the flash drive will not be constantly accessed to be written to.

Thargor

Would people rate this USB key for recording on a combi box:

http://www.mymemory.co.uk/USB-Flash-Drives/SanDisk/SanDisk-32GB-Cruzer-Extreme-USB-3.0-Flash-Drive-190-MB_s---Includes-SecureAccess-Software?utm_source=newsletter&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=120903_SanDisk_32GB_Cruzer_Extreme&origin=Newsletter

I know its unlikely to support USB 3.0 but what write speed would I be looking at needing for smooth recording?

Suffering Jbox

It looks like Triax is the only Saorview approved Combi box. Why is the Ferguson Combi Box not approved by Saorview?

Ronnie Raygun

There's a Walker combo as well & I think one on the way from 4Life or whatever they're called.

Approval costs a fair bit: it can't have escaped your attention that the Triax box is about twice the price of the Ariva (the Walker is too) & that this isn't due to spec differences.

Suffering Jbox

Thanks, I was naive enough to think if the equipment was OK, it would be approved.

zg3409

the non approved boxes are not OK. They do not meet the spec.

Thargor

How do you mean they don't meet the spec?

The Cush

Thargor wrote: »

How do you mean they don't meet the spec?

Minimum Receiver Requirements
NorDig Unified ver 2.2 equipment requirements
Saorview Approvals Process

zg3409

Any box that meets the full Saorview spec can apply to be certified. The 120 is not fully compliant.

For it to meet the spec it needs all of the following:
7 day TV guide
Full compaint teletext including aertel over scart
MHEG5 etc.

A compliant box is guaranteed to continue to work if Saorview for example decides to change the type of sound signal it sends. If RTENL adds features or makes changes in the future they will be tested first on all approved boxes. At this point non approved boxes may stop working as no-one has tested them to the standard.

You should try to have a least one complaint box/TV in your house to ensure you will get all future features such as hidden red button channels etc.

Thargor

Crap, didnt know that, think Ill still chance it though, thanks.

dodzy

zg3409 wrote: »

the non approved boxes are not OK. They do not meet the spec.

for the bulk of the people looking for a cheaper alternative to the ridiculously overpriced "approved" combos, the non approved boxes are perfectly OK. Super-duper text and the possibility of a RED button for our few channels is not the be all and end all for most, I would imagine.

STB

zg3409 wrote: »

Any box that meets the full Saorview spec can apply to be certified. The 120 is not fully compliant.

For it to meet the spec it needs all of the following:
7 day TV guide
Full compaint teletext including aertel over scart
MHEG5 etc.

A compliant box is guaranteed to continue to work if Saorview for example decides to change the type of sound signal it sends. If RTENL adds features or makes changes in the future they will be tested first on all approved boxes. At this point non approved boxes may stop working as no-one has tested them to the standard.

You should try to have a least one complaint box/TV in your house to ensure you will get all future features such as hidden red button channels etc.

Sorry ZG some inaccuracies.

The 7 day epg is delivered on Combo boxes, even the "unapproved" ones. That's because the EPG is delivered via DVB-EIT. Nothing will change that.

The unapproved combo boxes deliver old style VBI Aertel text.

Red Button services. The way red button services work is by hyperlinking a button via an MHEG menu option to open a transport stream. That stream will be in the open anyhow and will be viewable by scanning channels with an unapproved boxes. Nothing is hidden and I am not aware of RTE plans to implement an interactive TV station or red button services. At most we will have two transmission muxes, so it would not make any sense to implement red button services, as we dont run SD stations in parallel. RTE/DSO campaign are well aware that not everyone is using official boxes.

People are worrying a lot about something that hasnt been implemented in the 4 years that Saorview/Irish DTT has been on air.

The only thing that unapproved combo boxes cant do is MHEG5 text.

Sam Russell

STB wrote: »

The only thing that unapproved combo boxes cant do is MHEG5 text.

... or get over the air software upgrades, if they are ever done.

STB

Sam Russell wrote: »

... or get over the air software upgrades, if they are ever done.

Of course, but over the air upgrades are a facility for manufacturer fixes for approved boxes for specific reasons.

Unapproved boxes have a USB port at the front for firmware upgrades eiter way.

None of this has anything to do with reception of the channels themselves.

And I agree, I cant see it ever being used by RTENL as OTA firmware fixes can kill boxes fairly quickly if it fails/or the user unplugs the box!

zg3409

Ronnie Raygun wrote: »

And just what conceivably could bring about this situation?

RTENL could decide at any time to switch all audio feeds.

Saorview currently is only using MPEG-1 Audio Layer II (MP2), but can use AAC.

Compliant boxes must decode
AAC, AC3 and MP2

Look at all the people on boards with TVs that get the sound but no picture. As said people need to know the risks they are taking. Many people are not aware of them.

Some have suggested some of the audio signals should be varied so non complaint boxes will be more aparent.

They can't be hidden, they can just be tuned in as extra channels, same as on FTA satellite.

If they are marked as a data service I suspect most non compliant receivers would not be able to display them. Also if feeds were to be added and removed it might require re-scanning daily.

Series link for recording is really important to work 100% reliably. Watty has explained it was against the law to sell non-complaint equipment in France during switchover, due to the amount of people misled.

Ronnie Raygun

I actually deleted my earlier post as I thought it was a bit redundant, in light of STB's reply.

I think the audio codec issue has been addressed here before & the MPEG2 "sound & no picture" is an old story at this stage.

STB

zg3409 wrote: »

RTENL could decide at any time to switch all audio feeds.

Saorview currently is only using MPEG-1 Audio Layer II (MP2), but can use AAC.

Compliant boxes must decode
AAC, AC3 and MP2

Look at all the people on boards with TVs that get the sound but no picture. As said people need to know the risks they are taking. Many people are not aware of them.

Some have suggested some of the audio signals should be varied so non complaint boxes will be more aparent.

Unapproved HD Combo boxes currently decode all the audio codecs in the Saorview spec.

And just to clarify it is HE-AAC (not AAC), E-AC3 (not AC3) and MPEG2 that is in the Saorview Spec, all of which the current batch of unapproved boxes decode.

The reason that certain TV's only give the audio is because they have an MPEG2 video processor on board and are old legacy equipment that do not decode MPEG4 video. All of this has nothing to do with the discussion of HD Combo boxes which the OP raised and which is being discussed here as an affordable alternative to Saorview branded equipment.

I have been using Combo boxes for the last 4 years watching the service!

zg3409 wrote: »

If they are marked as a data service I suspect most non compliant receivers would not be able to display them. Also if feeds were to be added and removed it might require re-scanning daily.

Series link for recording is really important to work 100% reliably. Watty has explained it was against the law to sell non-complaint equipment in France during switchover, due to the amount of people misled.

There is a data service currently broadcast on the mux. This is the the data carousel for the MHEG5 text. If it where used to tell a set top box that when I press the red button it will pull a transport stream(TV station) broadcast in the open with Audio & Video PID's number blah. The TV station is not broadcast within a data service! The data would only be a link to the TV station that broadcasts in the open, a short cut key, instead of pressing a number on your remote control. There are no plans to implement this.

Series link - none of the approved Saorview boxes support it. They are single tuner boxes.

France made it illegal to sell MPEG2 hardware, nothing else, which was a wise move as they were using both MPEG2 (for the PSBs) and MPEG4 (for the commercial stations) at the same time. It is something that should have been done here, but technology has passed that by and there is only a very small percentage of old warehoused stock out there at this stage in the game. More an issue in 2008/2009.

Sam Russell

STB wrote: »

Of course, but over the air upgrades are a facility for manufacturer fixes for approved boxes for specific reasons.

Unapproved boxes have a USB port at the front for firmware upgrades eiter way.

None of this has anything to do with reception of the channels themselves.

And I agree, I cant see it ever being used by RTENL as OTA firmware fixes can kill boxes fairly quickly if it fails/or the user unplugs the box!

It is a major difference. I have a Humax Freesat Foxsat HDR that has been upgraded with OTA updates on frequently since I got it and has improved the box greatly. If Saorview decides to implement a change, it makes sense to do OTA updates. They will not be available on non-approved boxes.

I think the boxes are protected against power failures, and it is unlikely that the box would be killed by OTA updates.

However, I think that updates are unlikely since they cannot seem to get anything else right so why would they try this.

dodzy

Sam Russell wrote: »

It is a major difference. I have a Humax Freesat Foxsat HDR that has been upgraded with OTA updates on frequently since I got it and has improved the box greatly. If Saorview decides to implement a change, it makes sense to do OTA updates. They will not be available on non-approved boxes.

I think the boxes are protected against power failures, and it is unlikely that the box would be killed by OTA updates.

However, I think that updates are unlikely since they cannot seem to get else anything right so why would they try this.

You are now comparing boxes at complete opposite ends of the price spectrum.

Peter Rhea

Sam Russell wrote: »

I have a Humax Freesat Foxsat HDR that has been upgraded with OTA updates on frequently since I got it and has improved the box greatly.

Isn't the biggest improvement you can make to this box done via 3rd party firmware?

Sam Russell

dodzy wrote: »

You are now comparing boxes at complete opposite ends of the price spectrum.

Not really. Any box can be upgraded by a software update. It is part of the approval process, not the price of the box. Anyway, most of the boxes approved so far are the same box.

Peter Rhea wrote: »

Isn't the biggest improvement you can make to this box done via 3rd party firmware?

Yes, that may be so, but there have been significant upgrades over the air. The EPG has improved greatly, and many bugs and instabilities have been removed. There are many improvements I would like, but there you go.