Are we really that afraid of traffic?

Lord TSC

Was told today that the Ski place proposed for Dundalk has been scrapped after protests were lodged about the fact it would increase traffic. I've heard of other plans scrapped for similar reasons before, and I have to ask....are we in Louth that afraid of extra traffic?

Jesus lads, why would we ever want extra traffic in our region? All those people with their money, wanting to spend it in their towns? Sure, that would be disastrous. :rolleyes:

MugMugs

Teamshadowclan wrote: »

Was told today that the Ski place proposed for Dundalk has been scrapped after protests were lodged about the fact it would increase traffic. I've heard of other plans scrapped for similar reasons before, and I have to ask....are we in Louth that afraid of extra traffic?

Jesus lads, why would we ever want extra traffic in our region? All those people with their money, wanting to spend it in their towns? Sure, that would be disastrous. :rolleyes:

I heard something like 265 objections went in and one of them being a govt body.

To be fair, traffic? It's beside an underused off / on ramp to the M1 both directions. Lunacy if this was considered !

qc3

An Bord Pleanala don't seem interested in creating employment in Dundalk.

AN ambitious proposal to build a new €430m leisure park featuring an artificial ski slope, concert arena and casino has been turned down by planners.
The project -- the 'Altitude' leisure and tourism park -- had been touted as a major attraction with the potential to draw more than one million visitors a year to the 32-acre site in Dundalk, Co Louth, close to the Dublin-Belfast M1 motorway.
However, following an appeal by Louth Environment Group, An Bord Pleanala refused permission on a number of grounds.
It said the scale of the development proposed -- which would attract 1.15 million visitors to Dundalk each year -- would result in an "unsustainable car-dependent development". The board deemed the development contrary to national transport policy, which seeks to cut private car travel.
The proposed development was also found to be in an area vulnerable to coastal flooding.
Innovative Leisure Systems, which were behind the project, had envisaged the park creating 1,200 full-time jobs when it was rolled out over seven years.
The businessmen behind the project -- Sam Curran and Pearse O'Hanrahan, a former Fianna Fail councillor in Dundalk -- had initially estimated Altitude would be completed by 2016.
A call to Mr O'Hanrahan and the firm that submitted the application went unreturned last night.
Mr Curran was also involved in delivering the Ice Dome skating rink in the town which later closed.
Heritage body An Taisce last night welcomed the decision to refuse the planning permission for the artificial ski slope and park.

I'd imagine it was really turned down because it'd cost a fortune to build? (or was it being privately funded?).

If it wasn't going to cost the government anything, then I don't understand why it would be turned down. It seemed like a genuinely good idea, to me. Potential to be a new-generation Mosney of sorts.


The country needs a theme park or something. Thorpe-Park style stuff (i know that's a bit adventurous/optimistic considering our population and the general feasibility of such, but the general idea remains sound, in my opinion. Clearly our old broken buildings, OPW Heritage sites and tales of yesteryear aren't quite as attention grabbing as we'd like them to be, so why not try something new? We're financially cripped for another couple of decades, anyway, may aswell spend some more money we don't have on something different?)

The Guvnor

In all fairness the ski park was not going to be financially viable.

€430m to build and as with all builds this would end up costing more.

How many visitors a year did they need to make it work?

The developers thought it would attract 6.2m visitors per year eventually - 120,000 per week - - 30,000 people or say 10,000-12,000 cars arriving of a saturday and sunday? That underused ramp would not cope with that level of traffic.

The developers were suggesting people flying in to go skiing. Dream on.

Dundalk may lack a few things but seriously I've never had an urge to go skiing of a friday night.

This may have been all about putting in a proper casino and the rest of it was just distraction.

This was never going to work - also it was proposed to be built on a flood plain iirc.

Lord TSC

But surely that's the developer's progative? If they want to spend their money in such a way, then that's their business (literally). If they want to spend their money building it there, then that's their money.

Meanwhile, surely Bord and the government should be thrilled that it could create so many jobs, not just in the resort itself but in the surrounding industries which would benefit from the increased activity round the town?

I was at one of the ski resorts in Dubai last year, and there was a fantastic atmosphere. Given the unemployment facing this region of Ireland, I'd have thought that even the chance of creating so much income into Dundalk would have and should have been jumped at.

The Guvnor

It's not the developers peroggative imo.

If there was a 120,000 people going there per week it would be a disaster - this would never happen but the roads would not cope - how many acres would you need to park say 12,000 cars?

You'd park roughly 125 cars per acre and their total site was 32 acres so if the whole site was just a car park and three stories high it might take 12,000 cars.

This alone highlights an issue.

I have no issue with job creation and all that but an outdoor ski slope is a bad idea and one that would not be sustainable.

The one in Dubai was inside in a shopping centre correct?
One in Leeds as well in the Xscape but indoors with a lot of footfall.

The proposed site for the ski-slope has got no footfall - yes people drive up and down the road but not that many.

Therefore it would mean people going just for the ski-slope - maybe once as a novelty but that is it.

None of these proposed developments ever generate the employment they predict.

Apparently the only case where employment targets were met and exceeded was at Intel in Leixlip.

I'm not being antagonistic here but what other industries in Dundalk would benefit? None imo as people would all drive in and drive out and therefore bypass the town completely.

mr_staggerlee

l always thought this was a non-starter but for none of the reasons above ,

think about it
it's a SKI SLOPE !
what do we not have in louth a decent hospital dealing with all the broken bones and cuts,
could you imagine the waiting times in drogheda A+E :eek:

Nesta99

Be interesting to see where this development will pop up again - Lisburn, Banbridge, Dublin? Yes there are arguments regarding increased traffic but not insurmountable issues. As for being on a flood plain, it doesn't seem bother Dundalk Stadium. People have objected from as far away as Mullingar (and not for the first time) as they fear such a development would effect their own footfall - people will shop in Dundalk and make a day out with the skiing. It would have been a project that monitored properly, built in sustainable phases, helped rejuvinate the region. Why such a fear of ambition and moving on from the sh*tty status quo. Ski slopes are penny a dozen in England and this would have been state of the art.

As an aside when the Ice rink was proposed the Ice Hockey NGB were lobbied not to back it and to propose the plans to be moved to Abbotstown.

There are also associates of the Louth Enviornment crowd when submitting for development not a squeak or a squawk from anywhere

The Guvnor

I don't see people veering into Dundalk before or after their skiing.

If coming to it from Ireland the likelihood imo would be they would go to Newry or even the Outlet centre in Banbridge.

Does anyone here feel this was genuinely about building a ski slope and creating jobs?

Perhaps it could have been more to do with trying to get a proper casino built.

The ice dome is very different imo - the footprint is tiny compared to a 32 acre site with a 60-80m high ski slope.

Unfortunately look at the Ice Dome now - boarded up and iirc the ice will now need to be reset/redone if someone takes over.

Look at the bowling that is closed as well, unfortunately.

Is there any evidence to suggest a field of dreams scenario for the ski slope?

Is it better that it never gets built rather than built and then abandoned after a year or two when the inevitable footfall does not materialise?

The Guvnor

Nesta99 wrote: »

Why such a fear of ambition and moving on from the sh*tty status quo. Ski slopes are penny a dozen in England and this would have been state of the art.

No lack or fear of ambition here. However not all plans are worthwhile.

This was one which was not feasible.

Just think about what we are talking about here:

We want to spend €430m building a ski slope in rural Ireland. Dundalk it's got nearly 40,000 people living there and within an hour maybe a catchment of 2 million people.

€430m to build a ski slope - am I the only one who thinks that is a lot of cash on a ski slope?

We are not known for skiing and if an ice dome and bowling alley cannot stay open for whatever reasons what chance has a ski slope?

Nesta99

I guessed the closure of the ice dome would be mentioned but that had more to do with the issues with the parent company than its lack of use in Dundalk. €430mil is a lot of money but it is private money. The skiing may have been a sweetner for a casino but where's the problem with that. Scale of the development as ive said if done on a phased basis can overcome many of the objections. I dont know how people can claim that footfall will not materialise at all. The outlet mentioned at Banbridge originally sought permission to open in Dundalk but was stopped (on judicial review iirc) - one site considered was at where Carroll Village apartments and shopping centre is now. It didnt proceed and is now used as an example of where people are more likely to travel to than Dundalk, considering this may have been located at part of the dead area of Dundalk - at the time it was claimed it would kill the town centre...how ironic.

The same old objections are rolled out every time.

We are not know for skiing so no need for a ski slope. Well we werent known for our swimming so why build swimming pools? Not that many track and field participants either etc etc Sure havent we the gah though.

Bowling alley did not close/change of use exclusively due to lack of finances either. Soccer Dome is maybe a better example as even with significant usage that loss of projected income by not recieving a bar licence meant an uncertain future, added to JJB company issues.

nomoreindie

It would have been a massive white elephant, it was also due to contain an indoor arena to compete with the o2 and Waterfront in Belfast. I'm surprised that a few posters here actually think it would have been viable. Look at the icedome, jjb and their 12 indoor football pitches, the bowling alley. Unfortunately all of these well intentioned devlopmentsv failed in Dundalk. An indoor ski slope would have been a financial disaster for who-ever funded it

Nesta99

nomoreindie wrote: »

It would have been a massive white elephant, it was also due to contain an indoor arena to compete with the o2 and Waterfront in Belfast. I'm surprised that a few posters here actually think it would have been viable. Look at the icedome, jjb and their 12 indoor football pitches, the bowling alley. Unfortunately all of these well intentioned devlopmentsv failed in Dundalk. An indoor ski slope would have been a financial disaster for who-ever funded it

I wonder why people assume that €430mil would be spent by a business without doing a feasability study, would pay for design and planning and engage in preliminary tender if it was so guaranteed to be such a big failure as some poster so adamantly claim?

The days of crazy gambling on building are surely passed

The Guvnor

nomoreindie wrote: »

It would have been a massive white elephant, it was also due to contain an indoor arena to compete with the o2 and Waterfront in Belfast. I'm surprised that a few posters here actually think it would have been viable. Look at the icedome, jjb and their 12 indoor football pitches, the bowling alley. Unfortunately all of these well intentioned devlopmentsv failed in Dundalk. An indoor ski slope would have been a financial disaster for who-ever funded it

Even worse it was outdoors!

The Guvnor

Nesta99 wrote: »

I wonder why people assume that €430mil would be spent by a business without doing a feasability study, would pay for design and planning and engage in preliminary tender if it was so guaranteed to be such a big failure as some poster so adamantly claim?

The days of crazy gambling on building are surely passed

If you could raise €430m would you sink it into this proposed development if given the green light?

Nesta99

If the sums added up yes! As i am not privy to the figures it is a pointless stance. If you could raise €430mil and could make a profit on the project would you have a piece?

The Guvnor

But Nesta - the point was if you had €430m would you build a ski slope in Dundalk.

Of course you wouldn't nobody in their right mind would.

We don't need to see the figures on this to know it's a non-runner.

If it looks like a turkey, walks like a turkey then I don't need copious research to tell me it's a turkey.:)

seannash

The Guvnor wrote: »

We are not known for skiing and if an ice dome and bowling alley cannot stay open for whatever reasons what chance has a ski slope?

So were known for our bowling?
I'm pretty sure alot of people ski and snowboard from Ireland and as such a chance to do it on the weekend is a no brainer.When I used to live abroad I went snowboarding most weekends which would entail getting a bus for 4 hours to a resorts that was packed with people who had done similar.

If your worried about traffic.what aboput paypal employing 1200 people by 2015.Most of whom will be driving to work everyday 7 days a week,we can sustain that on our roads and would love to see similar big companies move here.I cant Imagine any bull**** claims of too much traffic if Apple wanted to setup a centre here and employ 3 thousand people.

seannash

The Guvnor wrote: »

But Nesta - the point was if you had €430m would you build a ski slope in Dundalk.

Of course you wouldn't nobody in their right mind would.

We don't need to see the figures on this to know it's a non-runner.

If it looks like a turkey, walks like a turkey then I don't need copious research to tell me it's a turkey.:)

Not to put you on the spot but have you ever been to s ski resort to see how busy they are.People dont go on ski holidays for the weather.they go to ski.I'm sure we have a healthy tourist industry in Ireland so why wouldn't people want the added bonus of being able to ski in Ireland aswell as the locals

The Guvnor

Yes been skiing about 6 times in France.

Was in an xscape centre about 2 weeks ago outside leeds where there was an indoor slope in a retail park with shops, outlet centre, gym, surf water facility, cinema and more.

Busy yes but would they see 120,000 people per week? Not a chance.

C'mon lads the total amount of overseas visitors to Ireland in all of 2011 was just 6.29m people.

I must be one of a few who always felt this was a non runner and the amount of money involved was ludicrous.

They built the Xscape centre in Castleford for £56m http://www.xscape.co.uk/yorkshire
Plus as I said the slope is indoors and there are many other reasons to go there as there is a full outlet village next door and it is in the middle of a massive retail area.

Altitude was going to be in the middle of nowhere relatively speaking and I say this as someone who lives with 3 miles of the racing stadium.

I fail to see how anyone can think this was a viable project?

seannash

The Guvnor wrote: »

Yes been skiing about 6 times in France.

Was in an xscape centre about 2 weeks ago outside leeds where there was an indoor slope in a retail park with shops, outlet centre, gym, surf water facility, cinema and more.

Busy yes but would they see 120,000 people per week? Not a chance.

C'mon lads the total amount of overseas visitors to Ireland in all of 2011 was just 6.29m people.

I must be one of a few who always felt this was a non runner and the amount of money involved was ludicrous.

They built the Xscape centre in Castleford for £56m http://www.xscape.co.uk/yorkshire
Plus as I said the slope is indoors and there are many other reasons to go there as there is a full outlet village next door and it is in the middle of a massive retail area.

Altitude was going to be in the middle of nowhere relatively speaking and I say this as someone who lives with 3 miles of the racing stadium.

I fail to see how anyone can think this was a viable project?

I know a fella who built a house for 100k and a fella who built one for a million.There both houses but vastly different houses.Just because you can do something cheaper doesnt mean all similar projects have to be the same budget.

Theres ski resorts in Scotland,that have been there years

Truth be told, I do kind of agree that it wouldn't have been completely sustainable.

I do, however, think that if it were more than a ski slope and a proper big, full on activity centre with all kinds of crazy stuff involved, then it could be a major hit (think go karting, paint balling, wall climbing, bowling, quad biking, etc. along with the initial ski slope idea).

The country is crying out for something. Look at the business Mosney used to do. It was a major, major spot, and now that we've motorways all across the country, the location doesn't really matter too much anymore.


That said, if someone wants to spend €430m building something, just think of the amount of people that would be required, the builders, suppliers, etc. and trade that'd be gotten in nearby stores etc (cafes selling breakfasts, etc) then I'm not sure why anyone is stopping them. If the whole thing flops, then that's a shame, but at least it created some work and was given a shot. Who do An Bord Pleanala think they are turning down 430 million Euro private investments? It's mental.


This is the same crowd that said a children's hospital wouldn't suit in Dublin because it'd interfere with the skyline... Which is fair enough, actually now that I think of it. People do come from all over to see the famous Dublin Skyline that we're so well known for. :rolleyes:

There needs to be a better group put together with better reasoning. I can understand a hospital being turned down because we don't have the money and it's unreasonable to build a hospital when so many are being closed/merged, but turning down a private business idea that doesn't require any Govt. funding...

The Guvnor

seannash wrote: »

I know a fella who built a house for 100k and a fella who built one for a million.There both houses but vastly different houses.Just because you can do something cheaper doesnt mean all similar projects have to be the same budget.

Theres ski resorts in Scotland,that have been there years

Xscape is far superior and vastly cheaper to build than what altitude were planning.

Find us a ski resort that sees 6.2m visitors per year - doubt there is one tbh.

It was/is a bad idea, people may disagree with that but I've yet to find someone who can explain where the 6.2m visitors are going to come from and on what exactly the €430m was going to be spent.

Ireland's largest visitor attraction is Dublin Zoo which sees about 1m per year.

Alton Towers in the UK gets 2.6m. Thorpe Park 1.9m.

One of most visited tourist attaction in all of Europe is the Eiffel Tower (depends where you look but top 7 for sure) and fair enough it sees between 6.7-6.9m per year.

Altitude at 6.2m visitors would get more visitors than:

• http://www.travelandleisure.com/articles/worlds-most-visited-tourist-attractions/40
• http://www.travelandleisure.com/articles/worlds-most-visited-tourist-attractions/38
• http://www.travelandleisure.com/articles/worlds-most-visited-tourist-attractions/37

I'm off out to play the lottery and I've as much chance of winning this or probably a better chance than Altitude had of getting anywhere near 6.2m visitors per year.:)