Does Ireland have Trading Standards Officers, and if not why not?

Boulevardier

I have noticed, in any discussion of consumer problems in Ireland, that there is never any reference to Trading Standards Officers (TSOs).

TSOs in the UK are officials responsible for investigating, resolving and where necessary prosecuting those engaged in substandard products or practices. They were formerly called weights and measures officers. Here is a description of what they do:

http://www.prospects.ac.uk/trading_standards_officer_job_description.htm

Do we in the ROI have TSOs and if not, why have we never set up such a system?

Mountjoy Mugger

We have the NSAI.

Boulevardier

Tha NSAI is not quite the same thing. Thay are a body which oversees implementation of technical standards, but as far as I know, they do not really act as a consumer protection body which responds directly to consumer complaints.

Procrastastudy

http://www.nca.ie/

http://www.courts.ie/courts.ie/Library3.nsf/PageCurrentWebLookUpTopNav/Small%20Claims%20Procedure

Boulevardier

Procrastudy, those are not the same either.

A TSO is a quasi-judicial local authority officer with enforcement powers.

I really am beginning to wonder why we don't have the equivalent here. Part of me is tempted to ask: is it because it does not suit our shopkeeper or business classes to have them?

Procrastastudy

Boulevardier wrote: »

Procrastudy, those are not the same either.

A TSO is a quasi-judicial local authority officer with enforcement powers.

I really am beginning to wonder why we don't have the equivalent here. Part of me is tempted to ask: is it because it does not suit our shopkeeper or business classes to have them?

Now you're just becoming obvious - okay I'll bite

Don't need it, don't want it. The current system works fine as it is I'd rather see the money go into hospitals, schools or the Gardai.

Boulevardier

Does the current system work fine? I very much doubt it.

In any case, that does not answer the historical question. Why did we never set up a TSO system, even when we had plenty of money to do so?

The answer to that may itself be part of the answer to the question of why Ireland became such an uncompetitive, rip-off republic.

Procrastastudy

Boulevardier wrote: »

Does the current system work fine? I very much doubt it.

In any case, that does not answer the historical question. Why did we never set up a TSO system, even when we had plenty of money to do so?

The answer to that may itself be part of the answer to the question of why Ireland became such an uncompetitive, rip-off republic.

TSO have very little control over pricing as far as I know. Also as far as I know the Department of Consumer affairs was much more similar and we got rid of it as not needed.

Realistically the reason prices are so much higher here is because of various factors including size of market, tax base (e.g. we pay very little in comparison to the UK) and the simple fact that people were willing to pay.

The free market sorts pricing out, and now we have access to other countries though the internet why would we spend huge amounts of money setting this up?

As for never having set it up - country was broke - by the time it had any money the need for such an organisation was already on the wain and Berty needed the money for the horses.

Boulevardier

I agree that over-reliance on the "free market" as well as our unsustainably low tax base helped get us into the mess we are in.

I don't agree that the need for TSOs was or is on the wane. If it is then answer me this: if the UK needs TSOs, who don't we?

Procrastastudy

Boulevardier wrote: »

I agree that over-reliance on the "free market" as well as our unsustainably low tax base helped get us into the mess we are in.

I don't agree that the need for TSOs was or is on the wane. If it is then answer me this: if the UK needs TSOs, who don't we?

IMO the UK doesn't need it either - no one holds a gun to your head when you walk into a shop. Vote with your feet if you don't like the pricing/advertising/refund policy.

Consumer Legislation has evolved to the point where the need for such a service is marginal at best. There are various other bodies for food safety etc where there is a genuine need - where incidentally we have stricter standards.

If we use the UK as an example - lets implement a National Health Service before we go down this route. The UK have that and we don't.

Not every solution that works in the UK works or is needed in Ireland.

Boulevardier

I agree about the NHS - thats at least 2 things the UK have which we never bothered our arse to set up!

I think that we have relied too much on the "shop around" philosophy espoused by Mary Harney and the PDs. It is not good enough.

Procrastastudy

I've only been in Ireland for the last ten years but my understanding is Ireland voted on the Health service.

Either way you have your opinion I have mine as I've stated mine I wish you well on getting a more informed answer.

mathepac

Boulevardier wrote: »

Does the current system work fine? I very much doubt it. ...

Maybe you could clarify something for me:

Is it your perception that the current systems in place in Ireland don't work?
If that is the case what specific areas do you perceive that need improving?
or
Is it the case that you you think the consumer protection systems in place in Ireland don't work simply because we don't have TSOs?

We do things a little differently in Ireland, for example our Head of State is not Head of any particular Church here and he doesn't need to be a member of any Church to be Head of State.

Our systems are no worse than those in place in the UK but unfortunately it's hard to find examples of places where they are substantially better, but I see no need to become a "little britain" as a consequence.

Boulevardier

Procrastastudy, that's fair enough and thanks.

Mathepac, I think there is a widespread perception in Ireland they we are a "rip-off republic" and I cannot help but notice the concurrent lack in Ireland of TSO's who, as I said, are locally-based officers with substantial poewer to right consumer wrongs. If that is true, I am saying that the consumer protection system here is not great, at least in part because we lack TSOs.

I also wonder, historically, why TSOs were never brought in. There may be excellent historical reasons, but I harbour a dark suspicion that the idea was turned down because it did not suit our business interests.

Nevertheless I am totally open to finding out the real or at least official reasons. I may email the Department of Enterprise and/or Consumer Agency about this.

Guy:Incognito

Boulevardier wrote: »

Procrastastudy, that's fair enough and thanks.

Mathepac, I think there is a widespread perception in Ireland they we are a "rip-off republic" and I cannot help but notice the concurrent lack in Ireland of TSO's who, as I said, are locally-based officers with substantial poewer to right consumer wrongs. If that is true, I am saying that the consumer protection system here is not great, at least in part because we lack TSOs.
.

What has trading standards got to do with pricing though?
A shop/tradesman etc is free to sell their goods and services for whatever price they see fit, and so they should. Just like if your selling a 2nd hand 10 year old fiesta. If you decide you want to price it at €50,000 thats your choice. No one will buy it but your free to price it as you want.

A consumer is not "wronged" because they chose to buy something that was expensive.

Boulevardier

Yes I agree that TSOs are not price-controllers, but there is more than one kind of rip-off. Have another look at typical TSO duties:

• visiting trading premises, e.g. pubs, petrol stations, factories and markets, in order to carry out routine tests or in response to a complaint;
• checking weighing machines and food labels in shops;
• checking beer and spirit measures in pubs;
• ensuring the correct transport of livestock to market;
• dealing with traders selling faulty goods;
• identifying potential hazards, such as unsafe electrical goods or unroadworthy vehicles;
• checking that advertisements and labels accurately describe the properties of the products;
• taking samples for laboratory analysis;
• offering business advice to help traders comply with legislation;
• investigating suspected offences, sometimes undercover and with the police or other agencies;
• presenting evidence at court in criminal proceedings;
• giving legal advice to members of the public about their consumer rights;
• keeping up to date with new legislation, new cases and guidance procedures;
• educating consumers and businesses, which may involve giving talks to schools, businesses and various consumer and vulnerable adult groups;
• writing reports, statements, letters, articles and consultation documents, and keeping accurate records.

Now my question is: do we have any locally based officials in various parts of this country carrying out a similar range of tasks? If we do, no problem. If not: problem.

borderlinemeath

Boulevardier wrote: »

Yes I agree that TSOs are not price-controllers, but there is more than one kind of rip-off. Have another look at typical TSO duties:

• visiting trading premises, e.g. pubs, petrol stations, factories and markets, in order to carry out routine tests or in response to a complaint;
• checking weighing machines and food labels in shops;
• checking beer and spirit measures in pubs;
• ensuring the correct transport of livestock to market;
• dealing with traders selling faulty goods;
• identifying potential hazards, such as unsafe electrical goods or unroadworthy vehicles;
• checking that advertisements and labels accurately describe the properties of the products;
• taking samples for laboratory analysis;
• offering business advice to help traders comply with legislation;
• investigating suspected offences, sometimes undercover and with the police or other agencies;
• presenting evidence at court in criminal proceedings;
• giving legal advice to members of the public about their consumer rights;
• keeping up to date with new legislation, new cases and guidance procedures;
• educating consumers and businesses, which may involve giving talks to schools, businesses and various consumer and vulnerable adult groups;
• writing reports, statements, letters, articles and consultation documents, and keeping accurate records.

Now my question is: do we have any locally based officials in various parts of this country carrying out a similar range of tasks? If we do, no problem. If not: problem.

Who do you expect to fund the position of TSOs? Because what you're describing is an Eddie Hobbs/Tina Leonard type paid public servant and the coffers are fairly tight on the public purse right now for an army of those to be recruited.

There's far more important positions in Health/Education/Special needs right now that to have somebody going around ticking a box when there's options such as the small claims courts where consumers can get redress if they wish for a very small fee.

I never understand why some people think we should be just a smaller version of the UK..it's a different market, just like France, Belgium or Germany is different to Ireland.

I also wonder why people can't get their head around the reasons why goods and services are more expensive here than the UK. As a nation we have a far higher average wage, our social welfare system is far more generous and our VAT is higher. To run and operate a business costs far more so the product/service has to cost more. But sure it's far easier to cry 'Rip Off Ireland' and grumble about it:rolleyes:

I hate saying this but if you want to live by the UK model, by all means move to the UK, pay their rates and taxes, get paid less/receive less in social welfare and see how you get on.

AngryLips

Since we're on the subject, why don't we have a monarchy either?

Procrastastudy

AngryLips wrote: »

Since we're on the subject, why don't we have a monarchy either?

We aren't really.

Boulevardier

I don't agree with the "we are a different country" argument. If our nearest neighbours have implemented a good idea and we have not, then we should think about why not.

That certainly applies, at least in my opinion, to a variety of other matters such as universal health and a right-to-roam our hills and valleys.

So far on this thread I have only seen one good reason why we should not have TSOs, namely because we are obviously short of resources at the moment, a situation which came about mainly because of the same light-touch philosophy which arguably underlay our lack of TSOs in the first place.

Now, taking a broader timescale, can anyone give me a single good reason why we should not have TSOs, or something similar, here as soon as we can afford to?

borderlinemeath

So what if the UK are our nearest neighbours? We only share a language and not much else. Currency, laws, constitution, taxes, rates, it's a monarchy rather than a republic. Just because they have something doesn't mean we have to have it too.

ejmaztec

It would make sense to have a Trading Standards outfit, and not just toss the idea aside just because the British have got one.

A friend of mine worked for them in the UK for years, and they poked their noses into all kinds of businesses, buying goods for testing purposes etc, to make certain that there were no toxic substances, or that capacities and descriptions matched. Thy even took a petrol company to court because there was too much lead in the paint on Smurfs that were being given away free with petrol.

The only thing that I wasn't impressed by was that he and his colleagues used to share the purchases out amongst themselves at the end of each month (except for the Smurfs of course).

In the UK, you'd spot these people on a regular basis, checking pumps at filling stations, to make certain that the fuel capacities were accurate, but I've never seen anyone here doing it, although someone did tell me that the testing is carried out by some "body".

zoozee

TSO can be used to stop supermarkets etc... making suppliers pay upfront "Marketing" monies which is illegal in the UK. If a supplier has to pay this lump sum they will just try to add it into the sell price and in turn make the product more expensive. There is a call for a TSO's. It is a joke that we don't have any.

dudara

Hi zoozee and welcome to Boards. Please note that is generally not "good form" to resurrect old threads without good reason.

Thread closed.

dudara