Symbols on Irish High Crosses

Fuinseog

does anyone know what the 'hand' on Irish Crosses symbolises? also the figure of the cat?

The cat may be taken from manuscripts symbolising evil, the cat eating the Christian fish?

dubhthach

Fuinseog wrote: »

does anyone know what the 'hand' on Irish Crosses symbolises? also the figure of the cat?

The cat may be taken from manuscripts symbolising evil, the cat eating the Christian fish?

I'm assuming you are talking about Muiredach's cross in Monsterboice? I'm not sure about the cats (one is holding a kitten, the other a bird) -- artistic element?



The hand is I believe representing the "Hand of God"


On one of other lowest panels there's an image of two men pulling each others beards!


As well as two monsters with human faces on an other.

Fuinseog

dubhthach wrote: »

I'm assuming you are talking about Muiredach's cross in Monsterboice? I'm not sure about the cats (one is holding a kitten, the other a bird) -- artistic element?



The hand is I believe representing the "Hand of God"


On one of other lowest panels there's an image of two men pulling each others beards!


As well as two monsters with human faces on an other.

I am talking abut High Crosses in general. cats seem to be present on few of them. any idea what the beard pulling signifies? apparently these crosses were also political. Clonmacnosie for example has depictions of High Kings.

nuac

thanks for the reply Dubhthach.

Interesting. The monks used to insert their own in-jokes into their manuscripts.

Would the masons / sculptors have been doing the same?

dubhthach

Fuinseog wrote: »

I am talking abut High Crosses in general. cats seem to be present on few of them. any idea what the beard pulling signifies? apparently these crosses were also political. Clonmacnosie for example has depictions of High Kings.

Don't know, a mason's sense of humour? Regarding Clonmacnoise, it's generally assumed that Diarmait mac Cerbaill is represented on the cross (along with Ciarán), the cross was commisioned by Flann Sianna who apart from been Highking was a member of Clann Cholmáin of the Southern Uí Néill. Clann Cholmáin descend from Colmán mac Diarmait (mac Cerbaill). So it would make sense Flann making a political statement linking the foundation of the monastry (through it's founder Ciarán) and the ancestor of his branch of the Southern Uí Néill.

Of course Clonmacnoise was later used for Royal burials by the Ua Conchobhair, both Ruaidhrí and his father Tairrdelbach (both High Kings) are suppose to be buried there.

Fuinseog

dubhthach wrote: »

Don't know, a mason's sense of humour? Regarding Clonmacnoise, it's generally assumed that Diarmait mac Cerbaill is represented on the cross (along with Ciarán), the cross was commisioned by Flann Sianna who apart from been Highking was a member of Clann Cholmáin of the Southern Uí Néill. Clann Cholmáin descend from Colmán mac Diarmait (mac Cerbaill). So it would make sense Flann making a political statement linking the foundation of the monastry (through it's founder Ciarán) and the ancestor of his branch of the Southern Uí Néill.

Of course Clonmacnoise was later used for Royal burials by the Ua Conchobhair, both Ruaidhrí and his father Tairrdelbach (both High Kings) are suppose to be buried there.

king Guaire, after who Dunguaire is named, is also supposed to be buried there.

due to weathering it is hard to see what is on some crosses. the North Cross in Clonmacnoise is supposed to have a depiction of Cerunnos, the God of the woods. I really must go into the exhibition in Collins Barracks. maybe they can explain the symbols there, though from what I have read some symbols seem to baffle the experts.


do anyone know if the cross in Adergoole County Galway is worth a visit?

dubhthach

I hadn't heard of this cross, some photos of it here:
http://www.irishstones.org/place.aspx?p=361&i=5
http://www.crsbi.ac.uk/search/county/site/id-ga-adder.html

Regarding Cerunnos though I don't really know of any mythology that specifically names in him in an irish context. Impression I get is he more specific to continental Celtic speakers. Of course it could be given his iconography (the horned god) that any such tales weren't transmitted by the monks writing down stories etc.

Ideally all of the High Crosses should be either brought in doors or put in glass cabinets -- like in Scotland with some pictish stones -- to protect from elements (Acid Rain in particular)





http://www.urbanghostsmedia.com/2012/06/clach-a-charaidh-ancient-monument-pictish-stone-modern-glass/

Fuinseog

Ideally all of the High Crosses should be either brought in doors or put in glass cabinets -- like in Scotland with some pictish stones -- to protect from elements (Acid Rain in particular)

[/QUOTE]

is should have happened a long time ago. its amazing that crosses that old are just left in a field.

BFDCH.

dubhthach wrote: »

Don't know, a mason's sense of humour? Regarding Clonmacnoise, it's generally assumed that Diarmait mac Cerbaill is represented on the cross (along with Ciarán), the cross was commisioned by Flann Sianna who apart from been Highking was a member of Clann Cholmáin of the Southern Uí Néill. Clann Cholmáin descend from Colmán mac Diarmait (mac Cerbaill). So it would make sense Flann making a political statement linking the foundation of the monastry (through it's founder Ciarán) and the ancestor of his branch of the Southern Uí Néill.

Of course Clonmacnoise was later used for Royal burials by the Ua Conchobhair, both Ruaidhrí and his father Tairrdelbach (both High Kings) are suppose to be buried there.

Given that they were often places that political motifs where displayed, and the monasteries themselves were often placed in disputed border areas in order to claim them for one side, could the hand not be the emblem of the Ui Neill then? the red hand?

sweeney1971

I have a boulder what we found whilst ditching on our land. It has what looks like a Gingerbread man with its arms out stretched and a criss cross carved onto its body. Its about 12 inches high. The only picture I have found of something like it was on a Cornish Celtic Cross.
I will get hubby to post picture of it for me.

BFDCH.

sweeney1971 wrote: »

I have a boulder what we found whilst ditching on our land. It has what looks like a Gingerbread man with its arms out stretched and a criss cross carved onto its body. Its about 12 inches high. The only picture I have found of something like it was on a Cornish Celtic Cross.
I will get hubby to post picture of it for me.

that's pretty cool. you should have a look for the area on this http://www.bing.com/maps/?v=2&cp=52.701795~-6.907417&lvl=17&dir=0&sty=h&form=LMLTCC

see if you can see any field markings like the ones in this picture, it might show if there was something in the area that the stone belonged to.

Fuinseog

BFDCH. wrote: »

Given that they were often places that political motifs where displayed, and the monasteries themselves were often placed in disputed border areas in order to claim them for one side, could the hand not be the emblem of the Ui Neill then? the red hand?

The hand is also present on the cross at Clonmacnoise. Another poster mentioned the hand of our lord, which sounds good. the museum at Clonmacnoise explains a few of the symbols but not all of them.

dubhthach

The thing is do we know when is the earliest attested used of the Redhand by any elements of the Uí Néill (let alone the Ó Néill -- who are only one of many branches of wider Uí Néill). We know the symbol was in use during the High Medieval period. Question is was it current during the 8-10th century? Also was it used by the Southern Uí Néill as well? For example Flann Sianna was a member of the Southern Uí Néill (sepecifically Clann Cholmáin).

The red hand even to this day is very much associated with the Cenél nEóghain of the Northern Uí Néill. It's not really even associated with the other major Northern Uí Néill kindred the Cenél Chonaill (O'Donnell, O'Gallagher, O'Doherty etc.)

Anyways just to cover the bases:
Uí Néill == descendants of Niall Noígiallach (Niall na naoi nGiallach -- of the nine hostages) -- dynastical grouping divided into two major factions (Northern/Southern) each with multiple kindreds

Ua Néill / Ó Néill == descendants of Niall Glúndubh (Niall of the Black Knee) who was High King 916-919AD and belonged to the Cenél nEóghain (and thus the Northern Uí Néill)

slowburner

sweeney1971 wrote: »

I have a boulder what we found whilst ditching on our land. It has what looks like a Gingerbread man with its arms out stretched and a criss cross carved onto its body. Its about 12 inches high. The only picture I have found of something like it was on a Cornish Celtic Cross.
I will get hubby to post picture of it for me.

It would be great to see the picture

Tiercel Dave

http://www.bluffton.edu/~sullivanm/muiredach/westlowest.jpg

According to George Bain, 'Celtic Art, Methods of Construction' the cats on Muiredach's Cross represent an Irish version of Isiah, Chap 11, 6-9, 'The Wolf shall also dwell with the Lamb'. One cat is beside a mouse, the other beside a bird.
Dave

steddyeddy

Is there any truth to the idea that some of the spiral designs on Irish crosses where inspired by Irish monks returning from places like egypt? I forget where I forget exactly where I read it although it was an article about pagan elements that were integrated into the Irish catholic church eg st.Brigid and certain other rituals. The article suggested that priests coming from places like egypt copied some of the designs they saw there and integrated them into their artwork.

Fuinseog

steddyeddy wrote: »

Is there any truth to the idea that some of the spiral designs on Irish crosses where inspired by Irish monks returning from places like egypt? I forget where I forget exactly where I read it although it was an article about pagan elements that were integrated into the Irish catholic church eg st.Brigid and certain other rituals. The article suggested that priests coming from places like egypt copied some of the designs they saw there and integrated them into their artwork.

roman artwork was apparently an influence.